Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 12, 2006 10:20PM
Posting a link to the website would be nice.
That way we could verify whether or not you used an actual quote, and see for ourselves what they have to say.
Unlike the website from Melborne, does the AA I have been to do these things?
[/b:6acbe2349d]
[/b:6acbe2349d]
All publicly assisted(financially) psychiatric counseling services promote and recommend AA.[/b:6acbe2349d]
Our AA , here, and in every other city and state I have visited, does not use disclaimers like those you attribute to the website.
[b:6acbe2349d]The meetings I have been to use quotes from the big book.[/b:6acbe2349d]
Like the ones discussed in the articles above.
[b:6acbe2349d]The newcomer's meetings, the big book and twelve step studies, Alanon meetings, woman's meetings, midnight meetings, breakfast meetings, and teen meetings, all use quotes from and study of what is in the big book,[/b:6acbe2349d] for at least a portion of every meeting.
[b:6acbe2349d]You cannot separate AA from what is in the Big Book[/b:6acbe2349d]. That would be like trying to separate Christianity from the bible.
The Big Book [b:6acbe2349d]is[/b:6acbe2349d] the program of alcoholics anonymous.
[b:6acbe2349d]The program of alcoholics anonymous is a system of religious indoctrination.[/b:6acbe2349d]
You can deny it all you like, but the Big book gives it away.
In the Big Book there are specific instructions for deceptive recruitment of potential converts, through[b:6acbe2349d] hiding the religious requirements from the alcoholic until later.
[/b:6acbe2349d]There is a lot of other sketchy stuff as well.
(I can post it again if you like, and probably will if it keeps being denied an/or ignored.)
[b:6acbe2349d]As it can, and has, been proved to be,[/b:6acbe2349d] (in court cases protesting court-ordered attendance at AA),[b:6acbe2349d] a religious organization, it has no place in the legal system of our[/b:6acbe2349d] (America)[b:6acbe2349d] country, and should be recommended judiciously, [/b:6acbe2349d](not as a panacea),[b:6acbe2349d] by our medical practitioners.
[/b:6acbe2349d]
[b:6acbe2349d]And no one should be tricked, coerced, bribed, or forced to go, period.
Which they are.
[/b:6acbe2349d]
Denial of these things does not change the facts presented, or[b:6acbe2349d] the evidence of the printed word.
[/b:6acbe2349d]
AA involvement often contains many of the same tactics used by destructive cults.
Many AA members claim the same types of damages as those who were involve with destructive cults.
Our point here,[b:6acbe2349d] on this thread[/b:6acbe2349d], is that, as a religious organization, the courts and schools should not be sending people there, because it is a violation of basic legal rights.
That way we could verify whether or not you used an actual quote, and see for ourselves what they have to say.
Unlike the website from Melborne, does the AA I have been to do these things?
Yes, through [b:6acbe2349d]the courts, the guidance center, and the public school system.Quote
Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover
Solicit members
[/b:6acbe2349d]
Probably not.Quote
Engage in or sponsor research
Keep attendance records or case histories
Individual members,[b:6acbe2349d] officially representing AA[/b:6acbe2349d], do, if not join, attend planning and other meetings with and [b:6acbe2349d]work in tandem with social agencies.Quote
Join "councils" of social agencies
[/b:6acbe2349d]
Individual members do this to varying degrees, but it is too long to talk about here.Quote
Follow up or try to control its members Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses
[b:6acbe2349d]All of the Rehab centers her are based on AA, hold AA classes, hold AA meetings, and send you off to AA when you graduate.Quote
Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment
All publicly assisted(financially) psychiatric counseling services promote and recommend AA.[/b:6acbe2349d]
Other than[b:6acbe2349d] prayer and confession[/b:6acbe2349d], no.Quote
Offer religious services
All the time, (with the approval of and instructions from higher ups like intergroup and the GSO), at [b:6acbe2349d]schools, jails, medical facilities, and inpatient treatment centers[/b:6acbe2349d], AA here, in my town and the rest of the US, engages in education about alcohol to the general public, and distributes literature as well.Quote
Engage in education about alcohol
Probably not.Quote
Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services
Provide domestic or vocational counseling
Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sources
Other than [b:6acbe2349d]signing attendance slips[/b:6acbe2349d] for these, no.Quote
Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc
Our AA , here, and in every other city and state I have visited, does not use disclaimers like those you attribute to the website.
[b:6acbe2349d]The meetings I have been to use quotes from the big book.[/b:6acbe2349d]
Like the ones discussed in the articles above.
[b:6acbe2349d]The newcomer's meetings, the big book and twelve step studies, Alanon meetings, woman's meetings, midnight meetings, breakfast meetings, and teen meetings, all use quotes from and study of what is in the big book,[/b:6acbe2349d] for at least a portion of every meeting.
[b:6acbe2349d]You cannot separate AA from what is in the Big Book[/b:6acbe2349d]. That would be like trying to separate Christianity from the bible.
The Big Book [b:6acbe2349d]is[/b:6acbe2349d] the program of alcoholics anonymous.
[b:6acbe2349d]The program of alcoholics anonymous is a system of religious indoctrination.[/b:6acbe2349d]
You can deny it all you like, but the Big book gives it away.
In the Big Book there are specific instructions for deceptive recruitment of potential converts, through[b:6acbe2349d] hiding the religious requirements from the alcoholic until later.
[/b:6acbe2349d]There is a lot of other sketchy stuff as well.
(I can post it again if you like, and probably will if it keeps being denied an/or ignored.)
[b:6acbe2349d]As it can, and has, been proved to be,[/b:6acbe2349d] (in court cases protesting court-ordered attendance at AA),[b:6acbe2349d] a religious organization, it has no place in the legal system of our[/b:6acbe2349d] (America)[b:6acbe2349d] country, and should be recommended judiciously, [/b:6acbe2349d](not as a panacea),[b:6acbe2349d] by our medical practitioners.
[/b:6acbe2349d]
[b:6acbe2349d]And no one should be tricked, coerced, bribed, or forced to go, period.
Which they are.
[/b:6acbe2349d]
Denial of these things does not change the facts presented, or[b:6acbe2349d] the evidence of the printed word.
[/b:6acbe2349d]
AA involvement often contains many of the same tactics used by destructive cults.
Many AA members claim the same types of damages as those who were involve with destructive cults.
Our point here,[b:6acbe2349d] on this thread[/b:6acbe2349d], is that, as a religious organization, the courts and schools should not be sending people there, because it is a violation of basic legal rights.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
upsidedownnewspaper
()
Date: August 12, 2006 10:37PM
Perhaps AA is just a destructive cult in America. Or just in your part of America?
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 12, 2006 10:50PM
The Big Book [b:02d7e016a1]is[/b:02d7e016a1] the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
If AA truly wanted to separate themselves from the sketchy areas of the Big Book, they would change them.
In America, AA meetings and groups follow, study, and preach what is written in the Big Book.
I don't know whether or not AA is a cult.
I do know it is a [b:02d7e016a1]religious organization[/b:02d7e016a1], and that people I know have become very confused and depressed due to [b:02d7e016a1]indoctrination into the belief system of AA[/b:02d7e016a1], often after being sent there by [b:02d7e016a1]government-funded[/b:02d7e016a1] social service organizations.
If AA truly wanted to separate themselves from the sketchy areas of the Big Book, they would change them.
In America, AA meetings and groups follow, study, and preach what is written in the Big Book.
I don't know whether or not AA is a cult.
I do know it is a [b:02d7e016a1]religious organization[/b:02d7e016a1], and that people I know have become very confused and depressed due to [b:02d7e016a1]indoctrination into the belief system of AA[/b:02d7e016a1], often after being sent there by [b:02d7e016a1]government-funded[/b:02d7e016a1] social service organizations.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
upsidedownnewspaper
()
Date: August 12, 2006 10:59PM
Quote
barabara
Posting a link to the website would be nice.
That way we could verify whether or not you used an actual quote, and see for ourselves what they have to say.
Look it up. You've got the web?
Quote
barabara
Unlike the website from Melborne, does the AA I have been to do these things?Yes, through [b:92c36d56ee]the courts, the guidance center, and the public school system.Quote
Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover
Solicit members
Perhaps your argument can be broken into two separate issues: AA is a destructive cult AND courts shouldn't recommend AA.
Regarding the first issue, you seem unsure, vacillating between the statements, "AA is a destructive cult," and, "I don't care if AA is a cult."
Regarding the second issue, that seems not to belong here...unless you are arguing that the democratically elected parliament-instituted practice of sending people to AA is all one, er, big cult system? Arguing against AA on the basis of a function of the courts is nonsense.
Quote
barabara
[/b:92c36d56ee]Probably not.Quote
Engage in or sponsor research
Keep attendance records or case historiesIndividual members,[b:92c36d56ee] officially representing AA[/b:92c36d56ee], do, if not join, attend planning and other meetings with and [b:92c36d56ee]work in tandem with social agencies.Quote
Join "councils" of social agencies
You are carefully delineating between individual members and the AA organisation, here. Perhaps individual members of AA are destructively cult-like?
Quote
barabara
[/b:92c36d56ee]Individual members do this to varying degrees, but it is too long to talk about here.Quote
Follow up or try to control its members Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses
Okay. Individual members of AA.
Quote
barabara[b:92c36d56ee]All of the Rehab centers her are based on AA, hold AA classes, hold AA meetings, and send you off to AA when you graduate.Quote
Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment
All publicly assisted(financially) psychiatric counseling services promote and recommend AA.[/b:92c36d56ee]
Which means, no, AA does not provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment. Psychiatric counselling services promote and recommend AA? Perhaps psychiatric counselling services are part of the big, destructively cult-like system, along with the courts and the AA organisation?
Quote
barabaraOther than[b:92c36d56ee] prayer and confession[/b:92c36d56ee], no.Quote
Offer religious services
Perhaps this is a difference between AA in Australia and AA where you are. Or perhaps you are referring again to individual members.
Quote
barabaraAll the time, (with the approval of and instructions from higher ups like intergroup and the GSO), at [b:92c36d56ee]schools, jails, medical facilities, and inpatient treatment centers[/b:92c36d56ee], AA here, in my town and the rest of the US, engages in education about alcohol to the general public, and distributes literature as well.Quote
Engage in education about alcoholProbably not.Quote
Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services
Provide domestic or vocational counseling
Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sourcesOther than [b:92c36d56ee]signing attendance slips[/b:92c36d56ee] for these, no.Quote
Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc
Our AA , here, and in every other city and state I have visited, does not use disclaimers like those you attribute to the website.
[b:92c36d56ee]The meetings I have been to use quotes from the big book.[/b:92c36d56ee]
Like the ones discussed in the articles above.
[b:92c36d56ee]The newcomer's meetings, the big book and twelve step studies, Alanon meetings, woman's meetings, midnight meetings, breakfast meetings, and teen meetings, all use quotes from and study of what is in the big book,[/b:92c36d56ee] for at least a portion of every meeting.
Just a portion? Or is it really a blanket mind-warp session of the Big Book the entire time?
Quote
barabara
[b:92c36d56ee]You cannot separate AA from what is in the Big Book[/b:92c36d56ee]. That would be like trying to separate Christianity from the bible.
AA in Australia explicitly states that what is in the Big Book is open to individual interpretation and any or all parts of the Big Book may be adhered to or not.
Quote
barabara
The Big Book [b:92c36d56ee]is[/b:92c36d56ee] the program of alcoholics anonymous.
[b:92c36d56ee]The program of alcoholics anonymous is a system of religious indoctrination.[/b:92c36d56ee]
You can deny it all you like, but the Big book gives it away.
Not in Australia. Check the website. It's on the web.
Quote
barabara
In the Big Book there are specific instructions for deceptive recruitment of potential converts, through[b:92c36d56ee] hiding the religious requirements from the alcoholic until later.
[/b:92c36d56ee]There is a lot of other sketchy stuff as well.
(I can post it again if you like, and probably will if it keeps being denied an/or ignored.)
The Big Book contents, available as it is on the web, can't very effectively hide these requirements from anyone who cares to look on the web. It isn't as if people need to be spoonfed a link.
Quote
barabara
[b:92c36d56ee]As it can, and has, been proved to be,[/b:92c36d56ee] (in court cases protesting court-ordered attendance at AA),[b:92c36d56ee] a religious organization, it has no place in the legal system of our[/b:92c36d56ee] (America)[b:92c36d56ee] country, and should be recommended judiciously, [/b:92c36d56ee](not as a panacea),[b:92c36d56ee] by our medical practitioners.
[/b:92c36d56ee]
[b:92c36d56ee]And no one should be tricked, coerced, bribed, or forced to go, period.
Which they are.
Not in Australia. Sounds like you've got a rabid cult on your hands in America.
Quote
barabara
[/b:92c36d56ee]
Denial of these things does not change the facts presented, or[b:92c36d56ee] the evidence of the printed word.
[/b:92c36d56ee]
AA involvement often contains many of the same tactics used by destructive cults.
That may be. But only to achieve AAs single goal of sobriety for members who chose to attend AA. Those tactics are not being used to advance a particular religious movement.
Quote
barabara
Many AA members claim the same types of damages as those who were involve with destructive cults.
Our point here,[b:92c36d56ee] on this thread[/b:92c36d56ee], is that, as a religious organization, the courts and schools should not be sending people there, because it is a violation of basic legal rights.
That should be taken up with the courts, then, in America. And is an issue that need not smear AA.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 13, 2006 12:04AM
I'm sorry.Quote
Look it up. You've got the web?
Since you don't see fit to post links to your sources, I'll just have to assume [b:aa539c4c2d]they aren't valid[/b:aa539c4c2d].
[b:aa539c4c2d]If you want your posts to be credible, the burden of proof is yours.[/b:aa539c4c2d]
We did.[b:aa539c4c2d] This[/color:aa539c4c2d][/b:aa539c4c2d] is the thread about AA and the courts.Quote
That should be taken up with the courts, then, in America. And is an issue that need not smear AA.
Perhaps your argument can be broken into two separate issues: AA is a destructive cult AND courts shouldn't recommend AA.
[b:aa539c4c2d]The other thread[/color:aa539c4c2d][/b:aa539c4c2d] is called "[b:aa539c4c2d]AA should be called a cult".
[/b:aa539c4c2d]
The Big Book is the program of AA. [b:aa539c4c2d]The destructive, deceptive, cultish dogma is in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous[/color:aa539c4c2d].[/b:aa539c4c2d]Quote
You are carefully delineating between individual members and the AA organisation, here. Perhaps individual members of AA are destructively cult-like?
No one here said that AA is "part of the big, destructively cult-like system", except indirectly by posting excerpts from the writings of others, but. actually, yes,[b:aa539c4c2d] they are part of the system promoting AA[/b:aa539c4c2d].Quote
Perhaps psychiatric counselling services are part of the big, destructively cult-like system, along with the courts and the AA organisation?
Quote
barabara wrote:
Quote:
Offer religious services
Other than prayer and confession, no.
Perhaps this is a difference between AA in Australia and AA where you are. Or perhaps you are referring again to individual members.
No, I'm talking about[b:aa539c4c2d] prayers at meetings[/b:aa539c4c2d], and [b:aa539c4c2d]confessions made during meetings[/b:aa539c4c2d], as well as to sponsors.
Whether or not each word of each meeting is a " blanket mind-warp session of the Big Book" is irrelevant.Quote
Just a portion? Or is it really a blanket mind-warp session of the Big Book the entire time?
Have you been to a lot of the meetings in Australia?Quote
AA in Australia explicitly states that what is in the Big Book is open to individual interpretation and any or all parts of the Big Book may be adhered to or not.
Not in Australia. Check the website. It's on the web.
No, but posting a link does lend credibility to the post..Quote
The Big Book contents, available as it is on the web, can't very effectively hide these requirements from anyone who cares to look on the web. It isn't as if people need to be spoonfed a link.
My response is from the Big Book:Quote
That may be. But only to achieve AAs single goal of sobriety for members who chose to attend AA. Those tactics are not being used to advance a particular religious movement.
How anyone can [b:aa539c4c2d]honestly[/b:aa539c4c2d][/color:aa539c4c2d] surmise that that is not promoting a religious ideology is beyond me.Quote
Quote:
To some people we need not, and probably should not emphasize the spiritual feature on our first approach. We might prejudice them. At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself.[b:aa539c4c2d] Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God...[/size:aa539c4c2d][/color:aa539c4c2d]
[/b:aa539c4c2d]The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 6, Into Action, pages 76-77.
Quote:
So, practicing these Steps, we had a spiritual awakening about which finally there was no question. Looking at those who were only beginning and still doubting themselves, the rest of us were able to see the change setting in. From great numbers of such experiences, [b:aa539c4c2d]we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name.[/b:aa539c4c2d]
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, pages 108-109.
Quote:
[b:aa539c4c2d]Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself[/size:aa539c4c2d] which will solve your problem.[/color:aa539c4c2d] [/b:aa539c4c2d] ... [That] means, of course, that we are going to talk about God.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, We Agnostics, page 45.
In his own chapter of the Big Book, Doctor Bob added:
Quote:
If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from [b:aa539c4c2d]accepting what is in this book[/b:aa539c4c2d], I feel sorry for you.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, Dr. Robert Smith, Doctor Bob's Story, Page 181.
Quote:
Stress the spiritual feature freely. If the man be agnostic or atheist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God.
...
There is no use arousing any prejudice he may have against certain theological terms and conceptions about which he may already be confused. Don't raise such issues, no matter what your own convictions are.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Working With Others, page 93.
Quote:
[b:aa539c4c2d]As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe[/color:aa539c4c2d] [/b:aa539c4c2d]underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, We Agnostics, Page 46.
The Big Book [b:aa539c4c2d]is[/b:aa539c4c2d] the program of Alcoholics anonymous.
[b:aa539c4c2d]If AA doesn't want their name smeared, they shouldn't promote themselves through the courts[/color:aa539c4c2d] to get new members.[/b:aa539c4c2d]Quote
That should be taken up with the courts, then, in America. And is an issue that need not smear AA.
All I am doing is relating the facts, which I have made certain are verifiable.
Many AA members, and the writers of the Big Book, as well, (obviously, from what they wrote), claim we should hide these facts because it might prevent some poor alcoholic from getting sober and kill him if we tell the truth.
[b:aa539c4c2d]But AA claims to be a program of rigorous honesty.[/color:aa539c4c2d][/b:aa539c4c2d]
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 13, 2006 01:18AM
[b:034f807fe1]The responses of the pro-AA posters on this thread are, in my experience, representative of attitudes that permeate AA.
The contradictions, (some would call them lies), are apparent.
[/b:034f807fe1]
From what the AA defenders [ colter and upside down] have written:
1. [b:034f807fe1]AA is not responsible for the actions of its members[/b:034f807fe1], even though they claim to be concerned and to have put "checks and balances" in place.
2.[b:034f807fe1] AA is not responsible for what is written in the Big Book[/b:034f807fe1], or how it is adhered to, even though the Big Book and the steps are the basis for the program, and are referred to, read from, and studied at nearly every AA meeting.
3. [b:034f807fe1]AA is not responsible for promoting themselves[/b:034f807fe1] through the courts and guidance clinics, even though they do promote themselves in this way, according to the GSO reports.
4. [b:034f807fe1]AA does not offer religious services[/b:034f807fe1], but Christian prayer is present at every AA meeting, confession is, (according to the AA founders), a necessary part of the program, and pressure to believe in the "one true God" is applied through the Big Book, the 12 steps, and by other AA members.
upside down writes:
I do not vacillate. My opinion about whether or not AA is a true cult has little to do with the issues I have been discussing.
I think the second issue is up to the moderators.
If they thought it was inappropriate, they would end the discussion.
Are you saying that you don't feel that legal issues pertaining to religious organizations belong on this website?
You need to take that up with the moderators.
Our superior courts, (here in the US), have found it to be a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment to send people to AA as a condition of probation, parole, or visitation rights.
Nevertheless, the practice goes on, and [b:034f807fe1]the religious organization of AA still promotes itself[/b:034f807fe1] by approaching and instructing correctional officers, county funded rehabilitation centers and guidance clinics, and public schools.
I only know what AA is like in the US, and what our laws are here as regards our religious freedoms.
The contradictions, (some would call them lies), are apparent.
[/b:034f807fe1]
From what the AA defenders [ colter and upside down] have written:
1. [b:034f807fe1]AA is not responsible for the actions of its members[/b:034f807fe1], even though they claim to be concerned and to have put "checks and balances" in place.
2.[b:034f807fe1] AA is not responsible for what is written in the Big Book[/b:034f807fe1], or how it is adhered to, even though the Big Book and the steps are the basis for the program, and are referred to, read from, and studied at nearly every AA meeting.
3. [b:034f807fe1]AA is not responsible for promoting themselves[/b:034f807fe1] through the courts and guidance clinics, even though they do promote themselves in this way, according to the GSO reports.
4. [b:034f807fe1]AA does not offer religious services[/b:034f807fe1], but Christian prayer is present at every AA meeting, confession is, (according to the AA founders), a necessary part of the program, and pressure to believe in the "one true God" is applied through the Big Book, the 12 steps, and by other AA members.
upside down writes:
Quote
Regarding the first issue, you seem unsure, vacillating between the statements, "AA is a destructive cult," and, "I don't care if AA is a cult."
Regarding the second issue, that seems not to belong here...unless you are arguing that the democratically elected parliament-instituted practice of sending people to AA is all one, er, big cult system?
I do not vacillate. My opinion about whether or not AA is a true cult has little to do with the issues I have been discussing.
I think the second issue is up to the moderators.
If they thought it was inappropriate, they would end the discussion.
Are you saying that you don't feel that legal issues pertaining to religious organizations belong on this website?
You need to take that up with the moderators.
Our superior courts, (here in the US), have found it to be a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment to send people to AA as a condition of probation, parole, or visitation rights.
Nevertheless, the practice goes on, and [b:034f807fe1]the religious organization of AA still promotes itself[/b:034f807fe1] by approaching and instructing correctional officers, county funded rehabilitation centers and guidance clinics, and public schools.
I only know what AA is like in the US, and what our laws are here as regards our religious freedoms.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
kath
()
Date: August 13, 2006 04:20AM
Quote
upsidedownnewspaperQuote
barabara
Posting a link to the website would be nice.
That way we could verify whether or not you used an actual quote, and see for ourselves what they have to say.
Look it up. You've got the web?
The burden is on someone making an argument to provide sources for it. It's called scholarship.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 13, 2006 11:43AM
In my experience, while going to AA meetings, there was always a faction of AA members who preached the belief that AA members were [b:7d899f44af]"God's chosen people"[/b:7d899f44af]. I had, until today, heard so little about this that I was beginning to wonder if I had indeed run into an isolated group in AA who believed this.
Today I found many links discussing to the origins of this belief.
[www.orange-papers.org]
[b:7d899f44af]We have been informed by the moderator that he has never seen any criticism of AA in the mainstream press[/b:7d899f44af], which I find hard to believe.
Criticism of AA by experts, published in[b:7d899f44af] mainstream media[/b:7d899f44af], such as [b:7d899f44af]The Saturday Evening Post[/b:7d899f44af], can be found as far back as 1963.
What I find most compelling is the fact that the [b:7d899f44af]complaints made in this article are amazingly similar to those made here[/b:7d899f44af] and on a vast number of internet sites today.
As for[b:7d899f44af] why[/b:7d899f44af] they do not appear frequently in mainstream media I can only speculate; it appears to me that [b:7d899f44af]AA has so infiltrated the psychiatric profession, and that AA theories have been so widely disseminated and accepted by those desperate for anything that appears to be a "cure" for alcoholism[/b:7d899f44af], that there is a pervasive prejudice against anyone who would "rock the boat", so to speak.
[b:7d899f44af]It is not "politically correct" to criticize AA.[/b:7d899f44af]
[b:7d899f44af]Most of my "non alcoholic" acquaintances are completely convinced that AA is solely a support group intended to encourage sobriety, and are totally unaware that the program has anything to do with God.[/b:7d899f44af]
Those who have never been to a meeting, and even some who have, have argued with me that [b:7d899f44af]AA has nothing to do with God[/b:7d899f44af].
They are very skeptical, even after I tell them that I have been to hundreds of meetings.
[b:7d899f44af]And frankly, they couldn't care less.[/b:7d899f44af]
They don't need help getting sober, after all.
**************************************
[www.eskimo.com]
From the September 19, 1964 Saturday Evening Post.
[b:7d899f44af]The identical complaints about AA are still being made, (and largely ignored by AA and the general public), today.
[/b:7d899f44af]
Today I found many links discussing to the origins of this belief.
[www.orange-papers.org]
*******************Quote
The "We Are The Chosen People" Idolatry
A. Orange
Dr. Arthur H. Cain wrote a criticism of Alcoholics Anonymous in the nineteen-sixties. [b:7d899f44af]One of his complaints was the arrogant "We Were Chosen By God To Save The World" attitude of some of the A.A. members.[/b:7d899f44af] He wrote that one example of this "Chosen People" attitude was a booklet titled "Around the Clock With A.A.", published by an A.A. group in California:Quote
Behind the A.A. fence the original principle that alcoholics must be humble before God has been turned into the dictum that [b:7d899f44af]alcoholics are God's chosen people. This theme is preached in meetings and through books and pamphlets.[/color:7d899f44af][/b:7d899f44af] A typical illustration is a booklet titled, "[b:7d899f44af]Around the Clock With A.A.[/b:7d899f44af]", published recently by an A.A. group in California. One passage declares:
"God in His wisdom selected this group of men and women to be the purveyors of His goodness... He went right to the drunkard, the so-called weakling of the world. Well might He have said to us: 'Unto your weak and feeble hands I have entrusted power beyond estimate.[b:7d899f44af] To you has been given that which has been denied the most learned of your fellows[/b:7d899f44af]. Not to scientists or statesmen, not to wives or mothers, not even to my priests or ministers have I given this gift of helping other alcoholics which I entrust to you.'"
[b:7d899f44af]Such idolatry causes the believer to see himself as all-knowing, and turns the missionary into the zealot.[/b:7d899f44af]
[b:7d899f44af]We have been informed by the moderator that he has never seen any criticism of AA in the mainstream press[/b:7d899f44af], which I find hard to believe.
Criticism of AA by experts, published in[b:7d899f44af] mainstream media[/b:7d899f44af], such as [b:7d899f44af]The Saturday Evening Post[/b:7d899f44af], can be found as far back as 1963.
What I find most compelling is the fact that the [b:7d899f44af]complaints made in this article are amazingly similar to those made here[/b:7d899f44af] and on a vast number of internet sites today.
As for[b:7d899f44af] why[/b:7d899f44af] they do not appear frequently in mainstream media I can only speculate; it appears to me that [b:7d899f44af]AA has so infiltrated the psychiatric profession, and that AA theories have been so widely disseminated and accepted by those desperate for anything that appears to be a "cure" for alcoholism[/b:7d899f44af], that there is a pervasive prejudice against anyone who would "rock the boat", so to speak.
[b:7d899f44af]It is not "politically correct" to criticize AA.[/b:7d899f44af]
[b:7d899f44af]Most of my "non alcoholic" acquaintances are completely convinced that AA is solely a support group intended to encourage sobriety, and are totally unaware that the program has anything to do with God.[/b:7d899f44af]
Those who have never been to a meeting, and even some who have, have argued with me that [b:7d899f44af]AA has nothing to do with God[/b:7d899f44af].
They are very skeptical, even after I tell them that I have been to hundreds of meetings.
[b:7d899f44af]And frankly, they couldn't care less.[/b:7d899f44af]
They don't need help getting sober, after all.
**************************************
[www.eskimo.com]
Quote
Nationally-distributed criticism of AA first appeared ?in a 1963 Harpers Magazine article.Quote
In January, 1963, Harpers Magazine published an article by Dr. Arthur H. Cain which was harshly critical of Alcoholics Anonymous. Entitled "Alcoholics Can be Cured--Despite A.A.," the article was soon followed by other nationally distributed publications which echoed the same criticism--including this one in the Saturday Evening Post of September 19, 1964.
From the September 19, 1964 Saturday Evening Post.
Needless to say, AA was not happy about this article.Quote
ALCOHOLICS CAN BE CURED--DESPITE A.A.
By Dr. Arthur H. Cain
An expert charges that Alcoholics anonymous has become a dogmatic cult that blocks medical progress and hampers many members' lives.Quote
[b:7d899f44af]It is time we made a thorough investigation of Alcoholics Anonymous in the interest of our public health. A.A. is identified in the public mind as a God-fearing fellowship of 350,000 "arrested alcoholics" who keep one another sober and rescue others from the horrors of alcoholism. Unfortunately, A.A. has become a dogmatic cult whose chapters too often turn sobriety into slavery to A.A. [/color:7d899f44af]Because of its narrow outlook, Alcoholics Anonymous prevents thousands from ever being cured. Moreover A.A has retarded scientific research into one of America's most serious health problems.[/color:7d899f44af][/b:7d899f44af]
My own experience with A.A. began in 1947. As a psychologist and investigator into the causes and cure of uncontrolled drinking, I have attended about 500 A.A. meetings in over 40 states and a dozen foreign countries. [b:7d899f44af]At first I was tremendously impressed with A.A.'s altruistic efforts.[/b:7d899f44af]
Over the years a disturbing change began to take place. As an increasing number of alcoholics joined A.A. chapters many turned out to be misfits who had rejected Christianity, Judaism or the Kiwanis Club. Dogmatic and opinionated in their nonbeliefs, they found in A.A. an instrument for a new kind of bigotry. Their only meaning in life was that they had heroically become "arrested" alcoholics. Arrogant egoists, they soon dominated many of A.A.'s 10,000 chapters. Weekly meetings, once spontaneous and exciting, became formalized and ritualistic. [b:7d899f44af]Anyone who questioned A.A.'s principles or even expressed curiosity was handed the slogan, Utilize, Don't Analyze, and told to sit down.[/b:7d899f44af]
Actually, there is no scientific evidence that alcoholism is an incurable, physical disease. According to current evidence, the origin of uncontrolled drinking is psychological.
Not only has A.A. interfered with scientific investigations, it has prevented medical and psychological treatment which runs counter to its own theories. At one New York City hospital, for instance, the physicians preferred using paraldehyde to treat acute intoxication. But then [b:7d899f44af]A.A. members implied that they would stop referring patients there if paraldehyde was used[/b:7d899f44af].
The wife of a Texas member described some unfortunate consequences of A.A.'s creed that the struggle against alcohol must be the most important ambition in a member's life.[b:7d899f44af] "This must be placed above wives or husbands, children homes, or jobs. [/b:7d899f44af]
A.A.'s creeds not only infect its own members but pervade public education. [b:7d899f44af]Most of what we hear or read about alcoholism is inspired by A.A. adherents spouting A.A. dogmas.[/b:7d899f44af] City, state and private agencies frequently fill all key posts with A.A. members.
Much of A.A.'s failure can be blamed, on a lack of forward-looking, constructive leadership.
Writer Jerome Ellison recently spent several months as a paid consultant to A.A. evaluating the fellowship's publications and activities. At national headquarters in New York City, Ellison declared, committee politics took up half the working day, and gossip was venomous.
Ellison's most damning indictment concerned the rule made by A.A.'s nonalcoholic board of trustees that [b:7d899f44af]no change can be made in A.A.'s theories on, alcoholism even though they are nearly a quarter of a century old[/b:7d899f44af]. "Despite the fact that the rank and file teems with exciting, relevant, informed and up-to-the-minute experience," Ellison declared, "none of it is permitted to appear in book form. [b:7d899f44af]To publish such literature, it is felt, would be to risk heresy[/b:7d899f44af]."
Needless to say, I do not suggest that A.A. be abolished or that a single member quit. That A.A. helps many thousands stay sober is obvious. But Alcoholics Anonymous should return to its original purpose of being a much-needed first-aid station.
Despite the fact that the highly insulted AA founders and officers felt it prudent at the time to "take an inventory" of the program, (or at least pay lip-service to the idea),[b:7d899f44af] nothing seems to have changed, now, forty one years later.[/b:7d899f44af]Quote
Despite the fact that the Cain's articles warped many half-truths into generalities, the 1963 General Service Conference shifted its theme to "AA Takes Its Inventory."
MacCormick remarked "It is a good thing, I am sure, for Alcoholics Anonymous as a Fellowship to stand off and look at itself with honest and wide-open eyes from time to time, just as AA members look at themselves in Step Four and Step Ten."
Bill W. then addressed the Conference noting, "It may be a mark of a certain degree of maturity on our part that members of the Fellowship seem to have been less disturbed by the critical article than our nonalcoholic friends have been."
Continuing, Bill added, "The subjects for a movement inventory are legion.
The adoption of the Responsibility Pledge at the 1965 International Convention in Toronto was almost certainly a direct result of the criticism in these articles.
[b:7d899f44af]The identical complaints about AA are still being made, (and largely ignored by AA and the general public), today.
[/b:7d899f44af]
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
upsidedownnewspaper
()
Date: August 13, 2006 07:55PM
Quote
barabara
[b:f98a571ca4]After all, your purpose here isn't constructive, anyway, is it?[/b:f98a571ca4]
Isn't your intent to create a disruption for your own enjoyment, anyway?
Are you even an AA member?
If [b:f98a571ca4]you [/b:f98a571ca4][/color:f98a571ca4]want a[/color:f98a571ca4] [i:f98a571ca4]private dis[/i:f98a571ca4]cussion[/color:f98a571ca4], do it [/color:f98a571ca4]via the private[/color:f98a571ca4] mail function[/color:f98a571ca4].
[www.aa.org.au]
This is the Australian Alcoholics Anonymous website. How does it compare to America?
The part I cut and pasted may be found under the NEWCOMERS tab at the top.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: August 13, 2006 08:00PM
For the record I have no problem at all with the content of the first 164 pages of AA big book, and yes AA is named after the book Alcoholics Anonymous. As far as I am concerned [i:3ac2782aea]it is [u:3ac2782aea]revelation[/u:3ac2782aea] of spiritual truth for alcoholics. [/i:3ac2782aea]
When the Big Book was written the intent was to carry the message out in the world where there were no meetings, so it was kind of a meeting in print. The BB has a sincere foundation and an intent to help people, [b:3ac2782aea]the polar opposite to the invective on this thread.[/color:3ac2782aea] [/b:3ac2782aea]
Having said that I'm not opposed to gender neutral revisions or revisions based on improved wisdom and truth of the BB.
As I am a follower of the cult of Jesus of Nazareth I see the wisdom in the "parable of the talents". If we petrify the BB without being willing to liberalize the book or add truth to it then we are guilty like the steward who hid his talent under a rock until his master returned for a reckoning only to find that the steward had bore no interest.
Colter
When the Big Book was written the intent was to carry the message out in the world where there were no meetings, so it was kind of a meeting in print. The BB has a sincere foundation and an intent to help people, [b:3ac2782aea]the polar opposite to the invective on this thread.[/color:3ac2782aea] [/b:3ac2782aea]
Having said that I'm not opposed to gender neutral revisions or revisions based on improved wisdom and truth of the BB.
As I am a follower of the cult of Jesus of Nazareth I see the wisdom in the "parable of the talents". If we petrify the BB without being willing to liberalize the book or add truth to it then we are guilty like the steward who hid his talent under a rock until his master returned for a reckoning only to find that the steward had bore no interest.
Colter
Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.