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upsidedownnewspaper

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barabara

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It's about predatorial people in society..

It isn't about having a discussion;
It's about causing disruption to one,
maybe because you don't like what's being said.
It's about trying to kill a thread.
It's about how much you enjoy baiting others here.
Kind of like the way you baited [b:16c298745f]Richard Green[/b:16c298745f] on another thread.
[b:16c298745f]It's about having fun being a troll.[/b:16c298745f]

My position here on this thread is to maintain that AA is not a destructive cult. And to maintain that the only collective goal of an AA group is sobriety.

As for being a troll, I suppose I DO think some people need their tyrannical beliefs challenged...I am a troll. I accept it.

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Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling.

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barabara
I'm finding the history of Buchman and the Oxford group, and how much AA dogma owes to Buchman's ideas, absolutely fascinating.

Especially the ideas about receiving God's guidance only through group consensus, which has carried over into AA.

Very interesting.

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dwest

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upsidedownnewspaper

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barabara

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It's about predatorial people in society..

It isn't about having a discussion;
It's about causing disruption to one,
maybe because you don't like what's being said.
It's about trying to kill a thread.
It's about how much you enjoy baiting others here.
Kind of like the way you baited [b:80746e363f]Richard Green[/b:80746e363f] on another thread.
[b:80746e363f]It's about having fun being a troll.[/b:80746e363f]

My position here on this thread is to maintain that AA is not a destructive cult. And to maintain that the only collective goal of an AA group is sobriety.

As for being a troll, I suppose I DO think some people need their tyrannical beliefs challenged...I am a troll. I accept it.

I am not sure if it was this thread I posted a link to, but there are studies that have shown AA is destructive to some people.

As for being a cult, I don't know but I do know it shares some cult like tendencies.

If the only collective goal is to maintain sobriety, why are people who are sober without the steps looked down upon and called "Dry Drunks".

Then we have the Vaillant study. This was a man who is a class -A member of AAWS.

Great tables and break down show the higher death rate of those involved in AA compared to those who were not.

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Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling.

[www.orange-papers.org]
has portions of the study and the tables from it.

Here is the offical AA page on Vaillant to show he is not considered a kook.
[www.aabibliography.com]

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barabara
I'm finding the history of Buchman and the Oxford group, and how much AA dogma owes to Buchman's ideas, absolutely fascinating.

Especially the ideas about receiving God's guidance only through group consensus, which has carried over into AA.

Very interesting.

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[b:48fb9c94b2]Bait and Switch[/b:48fb9c94b2]: First, prospective new members are offered a tolerant, open-minded "spiritual" program, but then they get narrow-minded demands for belief in Bill Wilson's teachings.

Chapter Seven of the Big Book is a training manual for recruiters. That chapter teaches another bait-and-switch trick: first, the bait offered to the prospective new member ("prospect") is a promise of complete religious freedom, and then the switch comes later, when the new member finds that he must accept the A.A. beliefs and discard his own.

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Stress the spiritual feature freely. If the man be agnostic or atheist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God.
  ...
There is no use arousing any prejudice he may have against certain theological terms and conceptions about which he may already be confused. Don't raise such issues, no matter what your own convictions are.

The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Working With Others, page 93.

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To some people we need not, and probably should not emphasize the spiritual feature on our first approach. We might prejudice them. At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God...

The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 6, Into Action, pages 76-77.

So the real purpose of Alcoholics Anonymous is to get people to Seek and Do the Will of God. Quitting drinking seems to be a secondary goal. [b:48fb9c94b2]But they don't tell new recruits about that in the beginning. They just emphasize the need to quit drinking.
[/b:48fb9c94b2]
Finally, Wilson said of the Big Book,

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Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem.   ...   [That] means, of course, that we are going to talk about God.

The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, We Agnostics, page 45.

In his own chapter of the Big Book, Doctor Bob added:

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If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you.

The Big Book, 3rd Edition, Dr. Robert Smith, Doctor Bob's Story, Page 181.

[b:48fb9c94b2]So, you can have any religious beliefs you want, but if you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or prefer to think for yourself while using a little common sense, then Dr. Bob really feels sorry for you, because you are in big trouble...[/b:48fb9c94b2]

"Alcoholics Anonymous requires no beliefs."?Yeh, right.

Obviously, one belief that is required is the belief that it is okay, even moral, to hide the truth and deceive newcomers, doling out the truth to them "by teaspoons, not buckets", while hypocritically claiming that A.A. is a program of "rigorous honesty". (The end justifies the means.)

But once we establish contact with God, and start receiving Guidance from "Him", we must submit all received messages to our sponsor or the other old-timers for interpretation and approval, so in truth, they will tell us what the 'Will of God' really is. They will effectively be our bosses, not God:

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If all our lives we had more or less fooled ourselves, how could we now be so sure that we weren't still self-deceived? How could we be certain we had made a true catalog of our defects and had really admitted them, even to ourselves?
      ... what comes to us alone may be garbled by our own rationalization and wishful thinking. The benefit of talking to another person is that we can get his direct comment and counsel on our situation, and there can be no doubt in our minds what that advice is. Going it alone in spiritual matters is dangerous.

Surely then, a novice ought not lay himself open to the chance of making foolish, perhaps tragic, blunders in this fashion. While the comment or advice of others may be by no means infallible, it is likely to be far more specific than any direct guidance we may receive while we are still so inexperienced in establishing contact with a Power greater than ourselves.

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, pages 59-60.

[b:48fb9c94b2]So, to save us from our own foolishness, our sponsors will correct our received Guidance, which we allegedly got from God, and they will tell us what God really says, and what God really wants us to do.[/b:48fb9c94b2]

Bill Wilson declared that newcomers could start off with various diverse religious beliefs, but then they were gradually pressured and nudged towards the standard A.A. beliefs:

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"I must quickly assure you that A.A.'s tread innumerable paths in their quest for faith.   ...   You can, if you wish, make A.A. itself your 'higher power.' Here's a very large group who have solved their alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power greater than you, who have not even come close to a solution. Surely you can have faith in them. Even this minimum of faith will be enough. You will find many members who have crossed the threshold just this way. All of them will tell you that, once across, their faith broadened and deepened. Relieved of the alcohol obsession, their lives unaccountably transformed, they came to believe in a Higher Power, and most of them began to talk of God."

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, pages 27-28.

   

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So, practicing these Steps, we had a spiritual awakening about which finally there was no question. Looking at those who were only beginning and still doubting themselves, the rest of us were able to see the change setting in. From great numbers of such experiences, we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn't got the "spiritual angle," and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name.

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, pages 108-109.

[b:48fb9c94b2]So "God as you understood Him" got changed into "God as we were increasingly better able to understand Him".[/b:48fb9c94b2]

No matter what you believe to start with, you will end up loving the A.A. God and calling Him by name at A.A. meetings while the old-timers beam with pride at their handiwork.

And while the old-timers will be able to see the change setting in, the newcomer won't.
Likewise, Bill also wrote:

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Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self-discipline.

The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience", page 569.

[b:48fb9c94b2]Yes, the beginner doesn't notice how they are messing with his mind until after they have made some major changes.
[/b:48fb9c94b2]
The Big Book has an entire chapter, named "We Agnostics", that is devoted to just one subject: declaring how and why all agnostics and atheists must be converted into true believers. (It doesn't tell you anything about how to quit drinking.) Bill Wilson starts off sounding very broad-minded and tolerant of other religious beliefs, but is soon playing hard-ball:

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Alcoholics Anonymous does not demand that you believe anything. All of its Twelve Steps are but suggestions.

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 26.

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When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you.

The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, We Agnostics, page 47.

But within two pages, Bill Wilson has switched to sarcastically sneering at those people who disagree with his fundamentalist religious beliefs, using the preacher's "we":

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Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word... Rather vain of us, wasn't it?
      We, who have traveled this dubious path, beg you to lay aside prejudice, even against organized religion. ... People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about.

The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, We Agnostics, page 49.

[b:48fb9c94b2]So just what on Earth are "intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation"?[/b:48fb9c94b2]

[b:48fb9c94b2]Whatever they are, Bill Wilson thinks he's one of them.[/color:48fb9c94b2] Bill's delusions of grandeur and messianic complex are striking again.[/b:48fb9c94b2]
[b:48fb9c94b2]And Bill imagines that his "faith" is "logical":?"People of faith have a logical idea of what life is all about."?No, actually, they don't. They have dogmatic ideas.[/b:48fb9c94b2] They are told what to believe, no matter what the evidence before them may be. That isn't logical at all. Logic is a thought process where you examine facts and evidence and then draw conclusions from it, often using deductive or inductive reasoning.

Bill Wilson could be downright hateful with people who wouldn't accept his strange religious beliefs:

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Let's look first at the case of the one who says he won't believe -- the belligerent one. He is in a state of mind which can be described only as savage.

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, Page 25.
Bill continued:

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As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps.

The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, We Agnostics, Page 46.

What Bill Wilson means is that you have to agree with his theology and then do his Twelve Steps to share in his delusions of grandeur.

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Bill Wilson had quite literally "seen the light." His vision of recovery from alcoholism embraced one thing and one thing only: religious conversion. To Wilson, research wasn't necessary; religion was The Answer. And when one has The Answer, research and questioning are obstacles, not aids. The problem is not finding new, better approaches, but rather putting an end to questions so that The Answer can be adopted without opposition.

The History of Addiction and Recovery in the United States, Michael Lemansky, page 53.

[b:48fb9c94b2]Indeed. Bill Wilson was not trying to find the cure for alcoholism. He was sure that he already had it. The only problem he saw was getting everybody else to agree with him.[/b:48fb9c94b2]

A newcomer who read (and believed) Bill's ravings declared:

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Here was a book that said that I could do something that all these doctors and priests and ministers and psychiatrists that I'd been going to for years couldn't do!

The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 473.

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We may start out as agnostics. We may then come to view the group or recovery process as our higher power, looking to other people for strength. Gradually, we accept a vague notion of god, which grows to a more specific monotheistic god. We may even begin to pray to and dialogue with this god. Eventually we come to know the one true God.

Serenity, A Companion for Twelve Step Recovery, Complete with New Testament Psalms & Proverbs, Dr. Robert Hemfelt and Dr. Richard Fowler, page 78.

So you can start off with any religious opinions you wish, but [b:48fb9c94b2]you will be constantly pressured and nudged towards belief in "the one true God" of Alcoholics Anonymous, until you believe just what they believe.[/b:48fb9c94b2] (Much of that process is just the usual social pressure to conform to whatever group you are in. It is almost unavoidable.)

Question: Why does God ignore the prayers of people in trouble, like the Jews in Auschwitz or the Tutsis in Rwanda, and ignore the pleas of the 60,000 people who will starve to death on this Earth today, and ignore the prayers of all of the millions of AIDS victims, but as soon as some white alcoholic Americans start chanting, "Higher Power, please gimme", the Lord and Creator of the Universe just drops everything and comes running to grant all of their wishes? How come?

[b:48fb9c94b2]Many Christians will have problems with the required Higher Power, too.[/color:48fb9c94b2] [/b:48fb9c94b2]In fact, very few sects believe in a God who micromanages and manipulates the entire world and everybody in it like so many little puppets. Most Christian sects believe that humans have free will, and can either do good, or royally screw things up, all on their own, and that your life is what you make it.

Few Christian sects believe that you have to spend every waking minute of every day of your life doing the dictates of God, or else He will kill you. [b:48fb9c94b2]But A.A. does.[/b:48fb9c94b2]

Few Christian sects believe in a God Who would be so cheap as to only heal you for one day at a time when He does heal you, to keep you always trapped under His thumb, and having to keep coming back for more healing, having to again and again beg for another day of sobriety, every single day, for the rest of your life. [b:48fb9c94b2]But A.A. believes in such a Monster of a cruel God.
[/b:48fb9c94b2]
So you really aren't free to believe in just any old Higher Power you like, or just any "God as you understand Him." Like Henry Ford's joke about model-T car colors --[b:48fb9c94b2] "You can have any color you want, as long as it is black" -- in A.A., you can have any God you want, just as long as it is the A.A. God.[/b:48fb9c94b2]

Having the freedom to call that A.A. God different names like
• "Higher Power",
• "Power greater than myself",
• "Motorcycle",
• "Mountain",
• "Bed Pan",
• "Door-Knob",
• "Group Of Drunks", or
• "Good Orderly Direction"
[b:48fb9c94b2]is not much religious freedom.[/b:48fb9c94b2]

[b:48fb9c94b2]LAST BUT NOT LEAST[/b:48fb9c94b2]: This may well be the first thing you notice: You may have signed up for a treatment program, either voluntarily or involuntarily. You expected to get some kind of medical treatment, good, bad, or indifferent, but at least some kind of "treatment."
[b:48fb9c94b2]
Instead, you found that the program consisted of "group therapy" sessions of indoctrination with xeroxed copies of Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous training materials by a "counselor" who was a religious fanatic and a true believer in A.A. or N.A., as well as a member. [/b:48fb9c94b2](It sort of sounds like the Hair Club for Men TV commercials, doesn't it: "I'm not just the dogmatic true-believer group leader, I'm also a member.") Then, along with the "group therapy" sessions, you were also required to go to at least three A.A. or N.A. meetings per week, or, "Preferably, one every day."

Perhaps, eventually, you figured it out. [b:48fb9c94b2]You were supposed to get religious conversion. You were supposed to start believing what they believe. You were supposed to start "sharing" about your "Higher Power", talking about how much you enjoy praying to Him, and how He is answering your prayers and helping you to quit drinking, and making your life wonderful... You were supposed to start talking about how wonderful the Twelve Steps are, and how they are the solution to all of your problems, and how you are making such great progress with them. [/b:48fb9c94b2]And you were supposed to speak about yourself with disgust and loathing, and "admit" how sinful and stupid you have been, and how brilliant Bill Wilson was...

[b:48fb9c94b2]It's yet another bait-and-switch stunt. You agreed to "medical treatment," not religious indoctrination.
[/b:48fb9c94b2]
Again, this is no accident, and not even a coincidence. Most of the treatment facilities and treatment programs in this country have been taken over by such A.A. true believers, or their N.A. (Narcotics Anonymous) brethren.4 The take-over was easy -- it happened almost by default. No one else really wanted the job.

The twelve-step true believers wanted the job so that they could redirect all of the nation's alcoholics and drug addicts into their 12-Step religion. It's called "Twelfth Step" work -- recruit new members for the cult.
Offer the patients hope of recovery, but give them Twelve-Step religion.
Bait and Switch.

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barabara
[/b]It's yet another bait-and-switch stunt. You agreed to "medical treatment," not religious indoctrination.[/b]

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barabara
The twelve-step true believers wanted the job so that they could redirect all of the nation's alcoholics and drug addicts into their 12-Step religion. It's called "Twelfth Step" work -- recruit new members for the cult.

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Anyway, you have convinced me: AA resembles a cult.

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barabara
I was told the Big Book [b:d59e35c7e4]IS[/b:d59e35c7e4] the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Those aren't my interpretations, anyway; they are the writings of "agent orange".

All of his quotes from the Big Book are verifiable.
I have read them.

We studied them in Big Book and 12 step study groups. ;)

Maybe not too many people actually[b:d59e35c7e4] believe[/b:d59e35c7e4] in the Big Book; in my experience quite a few people, (in particular the oldtimers), [b:d59e35c7e4]Do[/b:d59e35c7e4], and they preach it word for word, all the time.

That's just my experience.

If the Big Book is [b:d59e35c7e4] the[/b:d59e35c7e4] guidebook for AA, no one can really deny what's on the printed page, can they?
They can try, but it's right there in all its glaring, anachronistic, (or should I say Akron-istic?), detail.

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Interpreting it is another matter, however, as is interpreting the Bible.

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I don't know whether or not AA is a cult; I just know there are some [b:d59e35c7e4]very[/b:d59e35c7e4] screwy things in the book.

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At least they tried to convert me, and a lot of people I know.

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George E. Vaillant...first wrote about a 45 year(beginning in the late 1930;s) longitudinal study...and published his findings in a book entitled, "The Natural History of Alcoholism". 
He later wrote a follow up to that book.
Here is one excerpt from his book.

"In the treatment of alcoholism, Karl Marx's aphorism,'religion is the opiate of the masses' masks an enormously important therapeutic principle. 
religion may actually provide a relief that drug abuse only promises.   
...a third major source of help in changing involuntary habits comes from increased religious involvement. 
Only recently have investigators begun to tease out the nature of this principle. 
Let me explain what I suspect is involved. 

First, alcoholics and victims of other seemingly incurable habits feel defeated, bad, and helpless.  They invariably suffer from impaired morale.  If they are to recover, powerful new sources of self-esteem and hope must be discovered.  Religion is one such source. 
Religion provides fresh impetus for both hope and enhanced self-care. 

Second, if the established alcoholic is to become stably abstinent, enormous personality changes must take place.  It is not coincidence that we associate such dramatic change with the experience of religious conversions.

Third, religion in ways that we appreciate but do not understand
provides forgiveness of sins and relief from guilt.  Unlike many intractable habits that others find merely annoying, alcoholism inflicts enormous pain and injury on those around the alcoholic.  As a result, the alcoholic, already demoralized by his inability to stop drinking, experiences almost insurmountable guilt from the torture he has inflicted on others.  In such an instance, absolution becomes an important part of the healing process."

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A.A. does not:

[b:b3ae5790f1]Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover[/b:b3ae5790f1]
[b:b3ae5790f1]Solicit members [/b:b3ae5790f1]
Engage in or sponsor research
Keep attendance records or case histories
Join "councils" of social agencies
[b:b3ae5790f1]Follow up or try to control its members[/b:b3ae5790f1]
[b:b3ae5790f1]Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses [/b:b3ae5790f1]
[b:b3ae5790f1]Provide[/b:b3ae5790f1] drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or [b:b3ae5790f1]any medical or psychiatric treatment [/b:b3ae5790f1]
[b:b3ae5790f1]Offer religious services[/b:b3ae5790f1]
Engage in education about alcohol
Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services
Provide domestic or vocational counseling
Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sources
Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc

Conclusion

The primary purpose of A.A. is to carry our message of recovery to the alcoholic seeking help. Almost every alcoholism treatment tries to help the alcoholic maintain sobriety. [b:b3ae5790f1]Regardless of the road we follow[/b:b3ae5790f1], [b:b3ae5790f1]we all head for the same destination[/b:b3ae5790f1], [b:b3ae5790f1]recovery of the alcoholic[/b:b3ae5790f1] person. Together, we can do what none of us could accomplish alone. We can serve as a source of personal experience and be an ongoing support system for recovering alcoholics.