Yes Edgar Schein is an acknowledged and recognized expert.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Margaret Singer cites his work through the above linked book excerpt.

But Schein never said "AA is a cult" or that 12-step groups are engaged in thought reform.

You may quote/cite Schein at your Web site, but Schein hasn't endorsed or supported your conclusions.

No cult expert has that I am aware of.

The moderator declared,
---------------------
Schein never said "AA is a cult" or that 12-step groups are engaged in thought reform.

You may cite Schein for the purpose of your Web site, but Schein hasn't endorsed or supported your conclusions.
----------------------

Oh come on! Get real. You are quibbling over phrases.
Schein clearly described how A.A. does brainwashing,
and you are saying, "But he didn't call A.A. a cult."

No, he just said that A.A. brainwashes its victims and
makes it extremely difficult for them to leave the organization.
What do you call that, a friendly social club?

By the way, what happened to my previous post
where I asked about your credentials and
membership in Alcoholics Anonymous?

Did you chose to censor that? Should I post that response
on my web site?

Orange man you did not answer my questions,

* do you have a following and do you attempt to persuade people?

(Anti AA activists point out the potential exploitation of vulnerable new members by the spiritually based organization of AA. The Orange Papers web site is clearly an unbalanced front against AA so how do you safeguard these same vulnerable people from your own bias?)[/color:02e254e9b9]


* are you empowered by your campaign against AA?

* how are you a superior authority about how alcoholics should find sobriety then the experience of AA?

* do you practice faith in God of some sort?

In your opinion Schein's work somehow describes AA.

But that's your opinion not Schein's.

Within what paper or book authored by Schein did he specifically discuss AA by name?

Please quote the statement and cite the source.

Colter:

We are going off topic.

Christianity is not a "cult" it's a religion.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Colter stated:
================
Orange man you did not answer my questions,

* do you have a following and do you attempt to persuade people?
================

Well, first off, my name is not "Orange man", but that is the kind of demeaning naming sneer that lots of Steppers use.

No, I do not have "a following". I am just one person trying to get the truth out there.

Colter continued:
=====================
(Anti AA activists point out the potential exploitation of vulnerable new members by the spiritually based organization of AA. The Orange Papers web site is clearly an unbalanced front against AA so how do you safeguard these same vulnerable people from your own bias?)
=======================
If you want to see biased and unbalanced, just read any of the propaganda that promotes Alcoholics Anonymous.
Try these two articles for starters:
[www.orange-papers.org]
[www.orange-papers.org]

It is both funny and tragic that you think that Alcoholics Anonymous is entitled to give misinformation to
newcomers, and those newcomers must be protected from
hearing the truth about A.A..

Colter continued:
====================
* are you empowered by your campaign against AA?
====================
Empowered? That is a ridiculous question.
It's just an unpaid job.

===============
* how are you a superior authority about how alcoholics should find sobriety then the experience of AA?
===============
That's easy to answer: I tell the truth, and A.A. does not.

===============
* do you practice faith in God of some sort?
===============
Your phrasing is broken. You do not "practice faith".
You either have faith or you don't.
Now someone might practice a religion by going
to ceremonies and doing various other practices
and activities, but that is not "practicing faith".

Now, to get to the point, are you trying to ask if
I am an atheist or a believer? If so, the answer is
simple: I am not an atheist or an agnostic.
And my religious and ethical beliefs tell me that
is a dispicable crime to lie to sick people about what
might heal them, as in:

"RARELY have we seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed our path..."
-- Bill Wilson, A.A. 'Big Book', page 58.

"Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement."
-- Foreword to the Second Edition of the Big Book, page XX, Bill Wilson, 1955.

Those are lies. Lying to sick people about how well a treatment or cure works is grossly immoral and unethical.
And heartless.

So the question is, how do we protect the newcomers from such lies?

The moderator declared and asked:
=======================
In your opinion Schein's work somehow describes AA.
But that's your opinion not Schein's.
Within what paper or book authored by Schein did he specifically discuss AA by name?
=======================

It was right there in my post. I gave both the book name and page numbers. Didn't you even bother to read what I posted?

Coercive Persuasion: A Socio-psychological Analysis of the "Brainwashing" of American Civilian Prisoners by the Chinese Communists by Edgar H. Schein, with Inge Schneier and Curtis H. Barker
W.W. Norton, New York, 1961.
LC: BF633
LCCN: 61-7483
Dewey: 131.333

Excuse me I dind't catch that through previous posts.

Sorry.

Thanks for bringing these specific quotes to my attention. I don't have a copy of the book.

Also Schein doesn't conclude that AA is a "cult" and he notes that people already come to AA unfrozen and that they may leave at any time voluntarily.

Schein isn't specifically saying anything negative about AA or that 12-step support groups specifically "brainwash" people.

Unless you can quote/cite something more specific and on point, it doesn't appear that Schein supports or agrees with your conclusions.

It does seem that Schein, much like Lifton and Singer, is pointing out how some aspects of thought reform can be seen elsewhere in society through other groups and institutions.

Note the distinctions that Singer makes in her book "Cults in Our Midst," which is more on point and was published more recently than the Schein book.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Singer built upon Schein's work and notes this (see bottom of page).

You seem to be adding quite a bit more that Schein didn't say through your analysis.

Before we move on to any other points would you please cite a specific quote with full context completely, that demonstrates Schein's agreement with your opinion that "AA is a cult" or that "AA brainwashes."

The three dots (...) you used indicate that you cut Schein short.

It seems that you may be quoting him out of context and somewhat unfairly to make your points about AA.

A complete quote attributed to Edgar Schein about the destructive nature of AA and/or its "brainwashing" would be helpful at this point.

What Schein quote do you offer that specifically makes such a statement definitively?

From your Cults in our midst web-page:

Quote

The tactics of a thought-reform program are organized to:

Destabilize a person's sense of self,

Get the person to drastically reinterpret his or her life's history and radically alter his or her worldview and accept a new version of reality and causality,

Develop in the person a dependence on the organization, and thereby turn the person into a deployable agent of the organization.

Upon arriving at AA I feel most already have a "destabilized sense of self" but if not, at their first meeting they will be posed with the question, "am I an alcoholic ? " , not alcoholic in the 'drinks too much' sense, but alcoholic as in 'born with a mental, physical, spiritual disease' that controls my every action, sense. Part of the process of getting someone to accept this label is the re-interpretation of their life history. They will be told stories by other members which they are likely to relate to because most people who drink a lot have similar experiences. When they begin to identify with them they will be told all that their "disease" was responsible for all their problems. They will apply this line of reasoning to events back into their childhood, before they ever drank, saying that their inability to get along with someone or their rebellious youth was a symptom of the disease that they have called alcoholism. Pretty much any problems that may have occurred in their life will be re-framed to fit into their new-found disease and lifelong nemesis, "alcoholism". People are naturally eager to believe this because it "explains" all their problems and absolves them of responsibility and reduces the guilt associated with their failings.

All this effort leads someone to the obvious conclusion,"I am an alcoholic and have been all my life". Getting the person to believe that their excess drinking is not just a behavior, but a lifelong disease is very important because AA has the cure for the disease and lifelong attendance is the only way to treat it. AA gives you the disease and then conveniently provides you with the treatment. They make it very clear that you cannot be "cured" , that a daily reprieve is the best you can hope for.


AA may not be the "lead you over the edge of a cliff" or "here drink this kool-aid" type of cult , it may not even meet the parameters used here to define a cult, but it is not harmless. I feel that it greatly reduces a persons ability to make good personal choices because "AA" or "their recovery" must always be thrown into the equation. While on the surface that may seem OK, especially if you buy into the "disease theory", but the truth is that it is all built on a lie. The numbers don't support their claims, not even close. When someone is completely brainwashed by them everything they encounter will be viewed through AA tinted glasses and all decisions made accordingly. AA is promoted at every opportunity and this is especially troublesome in the legal arena where people are constantly being forced to attend meetings (which has been deemed unconstitutional by many states already). If it did really work it wouldn't be [u:1cf8acfbc3]so[/u:1cf8acfbc3] bad, but it doesn't. AA is very tight with numbers because they don't support their claims, but the last figures that where revealed showed about a 5% success rate, the same as the rate for any other method. There is a study that showed exposure to AA actually caused a higher rate of adverse consequences, including suicides among people who do drink again.

I believe that you mentioned that you knew countless people who had been helped by AA and this is often brought up in their defense but I believe, as do many others, that any of those people could have or would have gotten better without AA and that any contrary evidence is purely anecdotal. They bought the AA belief system so naturally they accredit AA with their success. I'm sure that in your line of work you have discovered that some people are "natural born followers" and will gladly give up their independence for the security of being a "believer" . I feel this is often just a way of escaping personal responsibility for ones own life. AA provides this opportunity not unlike many religions that are based on not much better beliefs. They all seem to provide a problem and then offer a solution, in exchange for your service. When these organizations enhance lives and unify people I suppose they could be considered "good",but the truth is they are all opportunist. They may not profit anything but the increasing of their own numbers but their cost is always a loss of some individuality of the members.

vince:

OK you don't like AA and feel it is a bad.

But that doesn't make AA a "cult."

And it also doesn't mean that AA "brainwashes" people.

So the relevance of AA as a subject to discuss on this "Cult Education Forum" message board is rather questionable and quite limited.

Wouldn't it be better for you to discuss this at a board focused on AA and/or 12-step programs?

You quoted "Cults in Our Midst" by Margaret Singer.

But Dr. Singer never criticized AA by name, that I am aware of.

Maybe Orange can come up with a complete unedited quote by Singer that supports such a thesis, but I don't know of one.