Quote
James G
Could it be the case that the lack of complaints might be because people go to AA as a last resort, usually after a major consequence and with that the level of respect afforded them is at a low? Their concerns will fall on deaf ears because as a result of the drinking they have no credibility? Other cults don't recruit people at their worst and that might explain why their antics are more exposed and disturbing to any family members.

J a m e s G

Rick,

What you are experiencing is the rationalizing mind of the alcoholic. If you add up all of the warped logic that you have had to deal with here on these threads then the result is a window into the mind of the alcoholic.

Alcoholism is said to be a disease of "perception". The alcoholic lives in almost complete denial of what is happening in his life and cleverly manipulates those close to him "infecting" them with the same distorted logic, often convincing them that they are responsible for the alcoholics drinking.

Rigorous honestly is a must in AA if the alcoholic is going to break out of the fantasy world in which he lives. The pathology is such that we believe our own web of lies and trust our rationalizations.

The unfortunate difficulty for us is that it is extremely difficult to face what we really are and have done in the past. Most are unable to "get honest".

So in my opinion what we are dealing with here are alcoholic egos which refuse to die so they are trying to vilify AA as a convenient excuse to avoid the rigorous honesty of AA itself.

Colter

Colter:

It seems that the people posting criticism here about AA are not drinking and have acheived and maintained sobriety without the help of a 12-step program.

Many people do.

My concern is that the words "cult" and "thought reform" or "brainwashing" not be used incorrectly.

It is one thing to criticize AA and another to label it or its teachings incorrectly.

Hello Moderator, (Rick?)

Sorry, but this line was too much for me, and forced me to register and join the fray:

"I don't receive complaints from families about AA making such claims concerned about their loved ones. "

You are changing your own definition of what is a cult.
You didn't mention complaining families as the definition of a cult on your FAQ page.

I don't know what is wrong with your mailbox. I get lots of email from suffering families. Just a few of the most notable letters are:

1) First, a sponsor seduces the guy's girl-friend, then
the group seduces his 15-year-old god-son; then,
years later, another A.A. group nearly destroys his marriage.
[www.orange-papers.org]

2) A girl is hijacked to a 12-Step treatment center
by an aunt, after the aunt gives the girl alcohol.
[www.orange-papers.org]

3)
A young fellow gets sucked into the cult and dumps
his former family and friends and spends all of his time with
his new sponsor:
[www.orange-papers.org]


By the way, your definition of what is a cult is far too simple.
I have a cult test that asks 100 questions to determine if an organization is a cult, and I have about another 10 cult characteristics that I am debating putting in.
Check out:
[www.orange-papers.org]

Thanks for your anti-cult work. Now if you would just realize what A.A. really is...

Orange:

I am trying to be fair, but frankly it seems to me that your protest about AA and accompanying criticism has no place at this board.

This board is focused on "Cult Education" and AA is not a "cult."

And there is no recognized "cult expert" that has ever said otherwise.

What appears to be proven by the posts at this board is that there is a relatively small group, given AA's size and history, of anti-AA activists on the Internet that are willing go on and on about AA at this board and other sites.

But please understand that there are limits regarding this here.

I am not willing to devote much more time or space to this subject.

Your arguments regarding why AA is supposedly a "cult" have been posted and exhausted ad nauseum by others over and over again.

Nothing new here.

Excuse me, but you are doing it again:
"And there is no recognized "cult expert" that has ever said otherwise. "

That is not a valid definition of what is a cult.
That is the propaganda and debating trick of "Everybody knows."

"Everybody knows that the Earth is flat. All of the University Professors and Church authorities agree on that. There is nothing to debate or discuss. It is an established fact."

Have you ever bothered to read my cult test?
I'll read your web site if you will read mine.

I don't want to put on airs of being a "cult expert",
but I think I've done enough research on the subject
for enough years to start getting there. And A.A. is obviously a cult.

Please read the cult rest, and those 3 leters, even if you don't have time to read anything else on my web site.

Thank you, and have a good day.

Orange:

No you are not a cult expert.

It is not "obvious" that AA is a "cult."

One last time.

Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who wrote the definitive book about thought reform (often called "brainwashing") also wrote a paper about cult formation.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

AA has no charismatic leader, such as a Rev. Moon, Jim Jones etc.

The author of its "big book" is dead and he never held a totalitarian position like a cult leader.

AA indoctrinates people through its techings, but does not use thought reform or coercive persuasion.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note the distinctions psychologist and cult expert Margaret Singer made between indoctrination and thought reform.

AA does not exploit its members.

There may be incidents involving specific individuals or sponsors, but this is not systemic abuse directed by a cult leader or ruling body.

If you don't like AA fine.

But please don't waste time and space here attempting to force a cult label on the group that has no basis in fact.

No basis in fact?

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

That would be Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob. They are worshipped as the gurus. Their word is infallible.
Just because they are dead does not make A.A. stop being a cult. Scientology, the Hari Krishnas, and the People's Temple are still cults too, in spite of the fact that the founder is no longer alive.

2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.

That would be called "working a Strong Program" and "Working the Steps", and "Keep Coming Back!" and "90 Meetings in 90 Days." The Twelve Steps include listing and confessing all of your sins, moral shortcomings, and "defects of character". Confession sessions was one of the elements of a "thought reform" program, as described by Lifton.

Robert J. Lifton described a program of "thought reform" as doing these eight things:
Milieu Control
Mystical Manipulation
The Demand for Purity
The Cult of Confession
Aura of Sacred Science
Loading the Language
Doctrine over Person
Dispensed Existence

Alcoholics Anonymous does every single one of those things.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

A.A. does not directly steal people's money, like how Scientology does. But that is the only way in which A.A. is innocent. The 12-Step Treatment Centers charge anything from $1500 to $40,000 for indoctrination in 12-Step philosophy. 12-Step recovery can be just as expensive as getting your "Operating Thetan" "cleared" in Scientology.

The first of the above-mentioned letters described sexual exploitation in A.A.
Other exploitation includes the demand that you must be a member of A.A. for the rest of your life -- the standard cult characteristics of "no exit" and "no graduates".

Thanks for your time.

Orange:

You failed again to meet the three simple criteria Lifton uses to define a "cult."

1. AA has never had a totalitarian leader like L. Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones or Rev. Moon.

Bill Wilson did not occupy such a position and no one ever has.

And there is no one occupying such a role now as there is in Scientology.

Another leader followed Scientology's founder Hubbard after he died.

2. Indoctrination not "thought reform" (read the link previously posted) is what AA does, Singer makes the distinctions.

3. Exploitation within AA by individual participants is not what Lifton is discussing. Note the previous post and paper linked.

I don't see what the big deal is, and why you say we shouldn't talk about bad stuff that happens in AA just because you don't think its a cult.
Mary Kay isnt a cult.
Herbalife isnt a cult. I don't know about Primarica and quixitar, but are they cults?
There are plenty of people telling about how the got used for sex or money and had their heads messed up by being told to work the steps or die, and got shunned if they quit, just like people got shunned if they didn't agree with every thing in Mary Kay, so what is the big deal with AA?
You aren't griping and banning people because they say bad things about Mary Kay, and I never heard of any books about it, but there are lots of books about how people get hurt by AA and lots of doctors and lawyers and educated people who have written about why AA can hurt people.
It just seems to me like you must have some reason for why you get so upset about people writing in and griping about being hurt by AA.

Orange man,

* do you have a following and do you attempt to persuade people?

* are you empowered by your campaign against AA?

* how are you a superior authority about how alcoholics should find sobriety then the experience of AA?

* do you practice faith in God of some sort?

Colter