@ LLG yes, you and several others involved in this mess have been essential in my recovery <3 along with prayer and some books I would highly recommend for those coming out of this group to be very helpful (you can even preview several pages on Amazon that will beyond a doubt help you see that it is pretty much word for word what happened in this group) in recovery are:

Twisted Scriptures by Mary Alice Chrnalogar

Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, The: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church by David Johnson , Jeff VanVonderen

Recovering from Religious Abuse: 11 Steps to Spiritual Freedom by Jack Watts


What is commonly practiced in this group is called "shepherding" or "discipleship" this is thoroughly explained in 'Twisted Scriptures' basically one person or a few people are giving a ranking of authority e.g. Jayse, Trent, Amy C. or any of the young men crowned as one of the 144,000. They are appointed by the leader or 'prophet' as a discipler or a type of guide to one or many people and this is where the abuse begins. The discipler becomes a sort of puppet master and the puppet has to seek approval and advice from their discipler on every aspect of their life, which leads the discpler to become very arrogant, abusive, controlling and condescending. Certain denominations like Church of Christ used to practice 'discipleship' and many have condemned this practice for years now after realizing the obvious abuse and cult activity that results from such behavior.

Here is an explanation of 'The Discipleship Game' by Mary Alice Chrnalogar :
[www.caic.org.au]

I apologize for this being so long, but I fear many on the fence members may not open the links and this may be very helpful to opening up their eyes.


The Discipleship Game
Chapter 1



You agree to wait for confirmation from your discipler before initiating important decisions. This works out to be getting permission.



Let's start by playing a game. Below are twelve items, six of which you are to pick:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

What you do not know is that I have decided I don't want you to choose items 4, 7, or 10. On the other hand, I do want you to take items 2 and 5. The rest are of no consequence to me. What are the chances you will pick the ones I want you to choose and not choose the ones I don't want you to? Not very good, are they? How could I get you to pick the ones I want without telling you? How could I control you to make my choices your choices but make you think that you decided?

Easy. I could play a manipulative discipleship game. First, before you started the game, I would teach you that, although this may be your first time playing, I have played this game a lot. In fact, I have spent so much time in prayer and study that God now inspires me to know the best choices (This often implies that God inspires me to know the best choices for you too). Then we would begin to play. After two choices, I would tell you that it is God who wants us to agree on each choice. This, I would tell you, is the kind of spiritual unity the Bible teaches. With this in mind, you would proceed with the remaining choices.

Suppose in those six choices, you only stumbled on one of the three items I did not want you to take. This is the only time I had to tell you that I did not agree with you. And, when you were on your last choice and you still had not picked item 5, I shared with you that God revealed to me the superiority of item 5. So you took it last. Five out of six times you got your choice, but you also benefited from my "divinely inspired wisdom" to make a good last selection.

You feel as though you are making up your own mind pretty well. You feel neither coerced nor controlled. In fact, you appreciated the help you got. In the end, however, I got what I wanted without your knowing it; and, of course, I was the one who told you had twelve choices and who directed you to select only six. I set up the rules of the game.

Abusive discipleship is played approximately the same way. Control over people is disguised as agreement with a discipler who, you are told, has your best interests at heart. Unlike the game, the choices are not trivial, but are more likely to be important (e.g., whom to marry, what vocation to pursue, and where to live). Unlike the game, however, abusive discipleship results in unnecessary fear, shame, and guilt—and, most importantly, the rules of abusive discipleship are not Biblical rules.

In his letter to the Colossians, Paul warns of the foolishness of man-made rules: "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom...but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence." The Apostle also admonishes us, "Do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon or a Sabbath day" (Col. 2:8-23).

Leaders in most discipleship groups will admit that their rules are different than those in most churches. The truth is because they feel they are closer to what an authentic Christian experience should be. I have heard many people compare the discipleship groups they were in to monastic orders or even the army. Some disciplers even draw the comparison: "We are God's Green Berets!" But when people are inducted into such orders or join the military, they know what they are getting into and know what the rules will be. Ask yourself: When did you agree to the rules? When did you find out what the rules were?

The rules of abusive discipleship are not evident in the beginning. What is initially obvious is a great display of personal attention, love, and caring. This is what people usually (and understandably) find so attractive about such groups. They will call you even when no one else does, they will invite you out to dinner, they will tell you that they care. They will also tell you that you can grow much faster spiritually by having a discipler who is wiser (than you) in the Lord. They will impress upon you all the wonderful benefits of being a part of such a program. And they will teach you that Jesus did this exact same thing with his disciples. You will be assigned a "buddy" to stand alongside and be your constant friend. It is often true that, with spiritual guidance, we can grow much faster. The problem is that, in some discipleships, spiritual growth accelerates for a short yet seductive period before being restricted by controlling techniques.

As your relationship with the abusive discipler develops, you find out there are rules—actually more rules than you might have expected. By contrast, there won't be hidden rules as you learn in healthy discipleship. From the beginning, the non-abusive discipler will lay out what is expected from you without intentionally withholding certain rules or ideas.

You may be led to believe that any violation of the discipler’s rules can be a sin. This is part of the deceptive and hidden agenda built into the program. You begin to believe that it is actually sinful to not follow the rules once you have accepted the discipler as your buddy.

Once you become involved in a domineering program, you frequently discover it’s considered sinful (or at least backsliding in your spiritual development) to break your commitment and end the relationship.

In a controlling discipleship, there are other ideas that are hidden from you. Aberrant discipleship teaches new meanings for such words as obey, submit, die to self, and brokenness. Their meaning is altered from the true Biblical understanding of these concepts. Abusive disciplers expand the meanings far beyond what the Bible teaches, to imply that, anytime you do not want to accept the advice of a leader, you are likely not broken, obedient, submissive, or dying to self. These non-Biblical definitions are usually concealed until the abusive disciplers feel you are trusted enough to accept their teachings.

BAD DISCIPLESHIPS MAKE IT A SIN NOT TO FOLLOW THEIR RULES!

The Bible offers us these examples of sin:

"the cravings the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does" (1 John 2:16)
"lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lover of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God" (2 Tim. 3:2)
"bitterness, rage and anger, brawling, and slander, along with every form of malice" (Eph. 4:31) and "sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed" (Col. 3:5)
Romans 13:13 mentions "adultery, murder, stealing, coveting" as sins

In abusive discipleships, sin is expanded to mean almost anything that the leaders do not like (e.g., challenging leaders’ actions, not obeying leaders’ advice, disagreeing with leaders, questioning leaders, or openly criticizing leaders).

The most common non-Biblical idea that is planted in members’ minds by abusive groups is that they are rebellious, hardhearted, or prideful when they decide not to follow the group's rules. Breaking a rule is usually taken to mean sinning against God. This is coercion because these dedicated Christians will force themselves to follow agendas they would otherwise refuse to accept.

An important, yet subtle, rule is:

You should wait until both you and your discipler agree before you actually make an important decision.

You are led to believe that you should get this confirmation so you will "know" that whatever you want to do is God's will. Actually, it simply means getting permission from the discipler. Responsible disciplers will not ask this of you (they know from experience that they have advised people wrongly in the past). Occasionally, the wise discipler does not "have peace" about a situation but he realizes that the disciple may be following the Lord's leading by not accepting advice. The abusive discipler presumes to know what's best for you. (Note: To "have peace" is a code phrase used by some groups and churches. It means that a person feels that God wills certain things and, thus, the person feels spiritual peace concerning these things).

THE PROGRAM OF BONDAGE

The hidden agenda of abusive discipleship is that you should not make decisions without both you and your discipler feeling at peace about it. They claim this will ensure that you will make fewer mistakes on your Christian walk. At first this seems to make logical sense: more accountability, fewer mistakes. What you do not realize, however, is that slavery may soon begin to develop. Once you agree to play this discipleship game, your discipler will be a major deciding factor in many of your choices because you come to believe that you are likely to be in sin if you act without the discipler’s confirmation.

How nice of the discipler not to want you to make any mistakes in your new Christian walk. The discipler wants to help you. You probably feel grateful that someone cares about what you do in a world in which people often do not seem to care at all. This discipler may also say that he wants to make sure you find and follow God's perfect will, and that he is advanced enough to be able to help you with your decisions.

As long as all your decisions follow the discipler’s agenda, you will get all the confirmation you could possibly want. You do not feel manipulated because you are making many decisions and are allowed to follow through. You see no control because your decisions either follow the path your discipler wants you to take, or the discipler may have no preference in a particular instance. When you veer off the "path," the controlling discipler may first try to subtly persuade you (and, if that fails, tell you) that you are in sin.

The non-abusive discipler, on the other hand, does not see you as less holy for rejecting advice in matters which do not deal with morals. There is no manipulation to make you feel guilt or sin for refusing to follow this type of advice. The abusive discipler does not expect you to always follow his advice either. But he is much more inclined to judge you as not humble, not broken, or not spiritual if you reject his advice in non-moral, or non-Scriptural matters. (Note: Non-moral matters are those which do not involve an issue of sin or innocence, such as selecting the color to use in painting the walls of your dining room, or whether to buy a two-door or a four-door car).

There are terms a discipler may use to guide the disciple back onto the desired path:

"I do not have peace about it"
"I do not know if that is God's will"
"Let's continue to seek God's will about that"

You are free to disagree if a non-controlling discipler uses one of these phrases. When they are used by an abusive discipler, however, these phrases are a kind of discipleship code that really means: "NO, NO, and NO."

The thrust of the program subtly implies—and you, as the disciple, believe—that you are probably in sin if you do not go along with whatever you are advised to do, regardless of whether or not the matter is a question of morals or Biblical mandates.

Did your discipler actually tell you "no"? Of course not. Isn't that sneaky? So sneaky in fact that disciples who are being controlled will nearly always swear they are never told what to do. Rather, they only receive advice. While this is often true, these victims do not realize that, under psychological pressure from their discipler, they may be making many decisions against their own God-given wisdom.

There are times, however, when sneaky is not enough and the controlling discipler needs to use a heavier hand (remember, we are not discussing moral advice). This is called "discipline." A disciple who refuses to yield will be chastened, rebuked, counseled, or will have some other Biblical-sounding word thrown in his face to get cooperation. This frequently involves being told he is not broken, not submissive, not obedient, or not humble. The disciple might be accused of being rebellious, not dying to self, not trusting enough, or being hard hearted. This labeling game usually works remarkably well in abusive discipleships.

The result is that you are compelled not to change jobs, go to school, date, get married, or do other things without first clearing it with your discipler. If he or she does not "feel peace" about it, then you do not really have permission to do it and will probably feel guilty if you go against your discipler's opinion.

I invite you to ask yourself, "Would I have played this game if I had known all the rules?" If you had been told at the outset that to be a disciple meant to obey practically all the advice from your discipler in every area of your life, would you have become involved?

The Bible does assert that we must obey the laws of God in all areas of our life, but jumping from there to the belief that church or group leaders must be obeyed in every area of life is questionable.

"COMMITMENT MANIPULATION" TACTIC

There is good reason why abusive discipleships do not reveal the rules up front—they would not get many recruits!

People are not exactly beating down the doors of monasteries that teach poverty, chastity and obedience. Commitments like that take time to make. But, unlike monastic orders, abusive discipleships use a "commitment manipulation" tactic: getting people involved first and then introducing them to all the rules. Once people are committed and involved in something, they are much more likely to accept such new information.

I remember a college professor telling me that if a person signs an insurance policy but later finds out it says much more in the fine print than he knew about, that person would still agree with it because he had made the commitment. This is similar to an abusive discipleship. The new disciple does not realize the involvement is the beginning of a long-term and intense commitment, nor does he know all that commitment will involve.

People get involved by participating and, over time, feel committed. Then, when they find out more of what is wanted of them, they go along with it because they have already made a substantial emotional commitment. In some cases, they have also made a financial investment. They have signed on the bottom line and the discipleship will fill in the blanks as they go along.

There is a tendency to justify, and cling to, whatever you are already involved in. So you must take time to look at all the information in this book before you push it aside. If you are currently participating in a group, I know it will be difficult for you to look at this information objectively. If a group can get you involved first, form your friendships, and gain your trust, then begin to lay one rule after another on you, you will more than likely accept them without argument.

I have faced controlling disciplers and asked them: "Why don't you tell your people up front what your discipleship is all about?" Sometimes they answer that the Lord doesn't lead them that way or that the people are still babes as Christians and would not be able to handle it. This is discipleship code. What it really means is that few would join if they knew beforehand all that will be expected of them. These disciplers are not hiding "deeper truths"—they are hiding manipulation.

Many legitimate organizations provide membership cards that list the regulations of the organization. I do not know of any abusive discipleship groups that have membership cards; but if they did, they might read something like this:

DISCIPLESHIP MEMBERSHIP CARD

As a member I agree to:

Give up nearly all my personal time to the program...
Open up completely & share everything about myself; not just my sins...
Relinquish my privacy of thoughts, sinful or not...
Be willing to give up my opinion if it conflicts with my discipler, and accept his opinion as right...
Believe that it is a sin not to trust my discipler's judgment...
Obey all requests of my discipler...

…even if the request affects a decision such as not being allowed to announce my engagement until my discipler wants me to, not pick a wedding date until my discipler approves, to put off my wedding date until my discipler has peace about it. I will obey my discipler in matters of dating, changing jobs, going to college, moving, or whatever is requested of me. If I do not obey, then I accept whatever punishment my discipler believes appropriate. I will accept being called "rebellious," "hardhearted," "not trusting," "uncommitted," prideful or whatever else my discipler thinks that I should be labeled. I will accept my discipler's opinions as the truth and feel terribly guilty for not obeying.



You should wonder why a group would want to conceal the way it really operates from newcomers or those on the outside. Jesus certainly did not operate this way. Furthermore, Jesus made it clear he did not teach something different to his inner circle than what he taught outsiders (John 18:20). The insiders even look at each other as more committed than people not fully in the program of discipleship. In this book, you will find out more about why some discipleship groups follow a different practice toward their followers than did Jesus.

In a recent bulletin of a church that had discipleship, there was a special notation that the discipleship class was by invitation only! No other activity at this church had this requirement. I had to wonder what secret Bible knowledge has to be by invitation only. My guess is that they were teaching some ideas that were controversial to the average person. They were going to make sure that the only people they would teach would be those they thought could swallow this stuff behind closed doors. Their excuse is that some people are not ready for their lessons yet, and only the discipleship leaders can tell when they are ready.




Chapter 1 Review
CHECKLIST...

Check those that apply to your group:

Did not get my fully informed consent before I joined
Withheld certain teachings until I was more trusting
Wanted my commitment as soon as possible
Consistently makes new demands of me
Did not tell me that anything less than total obedience is unacceptable
Seems to create non-Biblical classes of sins (e.g., labeling people as "full of pride" if they do not agree with the discipler's decisions or advice
Leaders do not tell me "no," but instead ask me to "pray about it" and delay my decision
See themselves as "more committed" than those not in the discipleship
Want me to refrain from making decisions without the discipler's concurrence
I am frequently told to "pray about it more" when making decisions
Disciples are rebuked for actions that are not really sinful but which merely differ from the leaders' opinions
My leader/discipler makes no distinction between moral advice and non-moral advice

NOTE: If you have checked any boxes, it indicates a misunderstanding of Scripture and may represent the presence of abuse and excessive control.


Control In Black And White
Chapter 7

Part of the effect of abusive discipleship is to create a world where the motivating factors are so powerful that people will conform to the exploitive expectations of the leaders.


"Why don't they just leave?" That is one of the questions most commonly asked by people who have never experienced a systematically controlled environment. It is difficult to believe that a healthy, thinking person cannot just pack up and walk out. It is easier to conclude that people who are involved in groups like these are weak willed persons who are easily entrapped. This is similar to the way in which many people still have a difficult time understanding why a battered woman doesn't just leave the man who abuses her. I still hear people say, "If someone hit me, I'd leave."

Of course, if someone came up to you and started beating you, you would do your best to get away. But the web that entangles battered victims is woven in stages, a strand at a time, gradually compelling the victim to remain. In the same way, disciples caught in the web of abusive discipleship groups are hemmed in by powerful motivating forces, both positive and negative. Part of the effect of abusive discipleship is to create a world where these motivations are so powerful that followers will conform to the exploitive expectations of the leaders. ...

Chapter 7 Review
Manipulative Groups Might...

create a world where the motivating factors are so powerful that people will conform to the exploitive expectations of their leaders
narrow the gray areas of your life, leaving only absolute right and absolute wrong
make disciples think that they are using all their critical thinking skills while actually these skills are being narrowed in at least one area
let you choose, but narrow your choices of right and wrong so that actually you are strongly influenced to make only one choice from a wide selection
cause you to think that there are only one or two ways to evangelize or to truly serve God
employ an extraordinary usage of words like: always, never, must and only cause us to believe that we are either "all bad" or "all good" ... totally obedient to God or totally disobedient
teach principles of prayer that are not in line with Scripture


Authority Unlimited - Chapter 3

When we preach the message of Jesus, if some reject His message, then they are rejecting Jesus. We can't stretch that to mean that if our disciples reject our advice they are rejecting Jesus.

Touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm! (Psalms 105:15 KJV)

Some discipleship groups interpret this verse to mean that we shouldn't question or say anything negative against our leaders. This interpretation squelches legitimate questions or complaints that might stop errors. Leaders who adopt this slant on Scripture become almost immune from accountability to their people. This is only one example of the ways in which abusive discipleship groups may use Bible verses. Passages are often taken out of context and their true meanings distorted; but these groups also correctly interpret many verses. That is why it is so difficult to see what they are doing.

Gilbert Trusty, a former pastor who used this passage to control his flock now explains...

This particular concept is so twisted, so groundless that it would be funny if it was not so sad. In context, in those verses (Psalms 105:9-15) (KJV) God is talking about the patriarchs, about how He protected them, about how He kept Abraham's life. The main thing the Scripture was dealing with is when Abemelech took Sarah into his harem. God wanted Abraham to keep his wife. God was protecting Abraham because from him was going to come a nation and from that nation was going to come the Messiah. Also John tells us that in the body of Christ we each have the anointing of God. (1 John 2:20-27) This anointing does not apply only to the man behind the pulpit; we each have the anointing of God. The Holy Spirit is available to every one of us. We can be filled as we open ourselves and yield to God. It's not just one man, or some church leaders on earth who God has set apart anointed. "Touch not my anointed" refers to all of us who are in the body of Christ.

Many times people forget that this Scripture could never be used to mean that sheep should not question their leaders. A good leader should be honoured and respected; but we are instructed (1 Thes. 5:21) to prove all things. First Tim 3:10 says that deacons must be proved. According to Revelations 2:2, even those who call themselves apostles should be tried. Jesus commends them because they tried those who called themselves apostles and found they were false. In abusive discipleship the mere fact that someone is a leader means that I should never say anything critical about that leader.

What a nice position! To be a leader when your flock feels that they can't be critical of you without going against God! But this is very dangerous for the flock.

The foundation of the discipleship movement is the authority of the discipler. What distinguishes discipleship relationships from the typical relationship between a pastor and the flock is that the discipler is granted a significantly greater authority to guide the directions and decisions of the disciple. Could this possibly be Biblical, that a young Christian lay person is granted power to oversee souls?

This heightened authority may be communicated directly to disciples through teaching, combined with an insistence that disciples be submissive, obedient, trusting and broken. Another way in which the excessive authority is indirectly communicated is by the way in which a leader exercises authority over the disciple. The church has always held that both the content of a leader's doctrine and the leader's behaviour are important. (1 Tim. 3:1-13; Tit. 1:5-11; 1 Pet. 5:2,3)

IMITATE, TRUST, BE LOYAL AND HAVE FAITH IN LEADERS ......OR GOD ...OR BOTH?

What does the Bible say?

The more extreme controlling groups will stress one or more of these ideas to gain more control...

Not only should you trust God but you need to trust your leaders also!

Not only should you be loyal to God but you need to be loyal to your leaders!

Not only should you have faith in God but you need to have faith in your leaders!

Not only should you imitate Jesus but you need to imitate your leaders (without also teaching that it is the leaders' Christian virtues which are worthy of imitation.)

You don't find these ideas in the Bible, but if a group wants to gain nearly unlimited authority over people it is extremely important for that group to emphasise them. If your group only uses one of these ideas, it is time to recognise it and analyse how it is misused and what the Bible really teaches about it. Of course it is not wrong to have some trust, faith, or loyalty in your leadership. What is wrong is to teach that the Bible says this is expected of us. If your group labels people as sinners because they don't trust the leaders, don't have faith in them, don't have loyalty to them, or fail to imitate them: this is also contrary to Scripture.Non-controlling churches generally stick more closely to Scripture and only teach trusting in God, having faith in God, having loyalty to God and imitating the life and virtues of Jesus or the virtues of Jesus in men.


Chapter 3 Review

Manipulative Groups Might...

* overstep the boundaries of Scripture when it comes to limiting leaders' guidance capacity

* twist verses like "Touch not my anointed" implying that we can't be critical of leaders without being critical of God

* stress trusting leaders, having faith in leaders, imitating leaders and being loyal to them

* grant disciplers (lay people) significantly greater authority to guide than Biblical standards permit

* at times claim that refusal to obey leaders' opinions in personal matters is sin

* allow leaders to exercise authority like high officials instead of being a servant to the their flock

* stress that leaders are servants but in practice allow leaders to force their opinions on members by threatening or actually carrying out public or private rebuke for differences of opinion

* not call attention to Scriptures saying that people were not always expected to obey their leaders

* imply, or even teach, that we should look on our discipler as the Apostles looked on Jesus

* classify almost all criticism of leaders as slanderous or malicious

* selectively focus on the idea that Jesus endured under abusive authority by being crucified; implying that we should obey even bad advice from leaders as that would prove our brokenness

* selectively focus on words or phrases and change their meanings; especially the words: obey, submit, dying to self, thus making it appear that a complete compliance to group leaders is what the Bible teaches

* denigrate any career other than full-time service to the church as serving God less than full-time ministry

* not teach that there is a distinction between back-biting, and legitimately criticising leadership's actions

* not teach that the authority is in the message and not the messenger

* permit novices to oversee souls or promote novices to positions of leadership

* teach that Jesus poured himself into only 12 people

* not teach that there is a distinction between a leader's opinion or advice, and the Lord's Biblical commands

* not stress "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Romans 14:5)

* not stress Scriptures which describe how Jesus refused to obey authority

* not explain that the Greek word exousia was never used in reference to church leaders, except the Apostles

* not explain that only reasonable commands of leaders must be obeyed and that these must stay within scriptural boundaries

* impress that we need to be accountable to a discipler in every area of our life and not just in the area of Scripture


Also here is something to be aware of in the future: "Many ex-members who leave these destructive, spiritually abusing groups actually form their own groups composing of ex-members of the "mother group"

Even though they feel they are different from the parent group, the similarities are obvious to outsiders. They accept and defend (most) of the parent group's teachings and practices.

It is only natural that some will have pre-conditioned belief, thoughts, practices and influences from the mother group and it's leader. And it would be very HARD to discern some of the former group's most critical errors, so they will more than likely mimic the former group's errors such as distrust of Christianity, rejection of the deity of Jesus Christ, rejection of the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit, and salvation by grace through faith alone.

Even worse, ex-members will unknowingly retain practices learned in the former group, such as their methods of interpreting God's Word, Us versed Them mentality, rules, etc.

Ex-members need the help from people who love Jesus Christ, their Lord and Savior, WHO were NEVER members of a destructive group, or from ex- members who are well along in the process of putting off the old ways.

It would be almost funny, if it was not such a dangerous belief that people can actually save themselves. God is so perfect and holy, we as humans cannot even comprehend this." [www.thenetteam.net]

What would you guys suggest to be the best way to approach someone about getting out of the Trumpet Call of God. I went to high school with this kid, didn't really ever hang out with him besides being on a minor league baseball team with him maybe once. Anyway, I am friends with him on facebook. I noticed all of his posts about God and everything, all coming from the Trumpet Call of God group. I have talked to him a few times like bringing up a few Bible verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "but test everything; hold fast what is good," and stuff. He just brought up letters from Timothy. I didn't want to offend him at all so I didn't really try to argue with him at all. I have also talked to him a few other times asking a couple questions about things that he as posted, like end of days sort of things. Even though I don't know him that well, I really don't want to see someone mislead. I a just not sure how to approach it. I would truly appreciate it if you guys could give me some advice. Thank you so much.

@braku What worked for me, was Seeds, People Used to say they were false and stuff, at first i did not believe it until i strated questioning why he wanted me to separate from people, i thought that was Kinda Odd. But because the seed of the thought that he was false was in my mind already, It just started to grow, Out of my own Curiosity I researched if he was false and this started the process.

The Main thing, is that people in the group are scared of being left behind As in the "rapture" teaching, and it seems like if you leave the group, you won't get raptured, But anyways i uploaded all seven volumes so, You just make your claim from the beginning he said 7 years, Like it was going to happen in 2011.

At first this might have no effect, But after a while, he would start to question it, and Just be there for him, when i was leaving i had no one, I tried to link with people on youtube, Because i had no one, But ... So just be there to help him, Don't be like, I told you so or anything,

Because i went round saying that the rapture is 2011 and i was so confident, But lets Just say, Now we see, God sent this woman to help me, and she was supportive, she herself i believe was in a cult, But she left a long time, she supported me alot like a mother and was sympathetic.

So you need to Just plant seeds and Let God help them, if you try force it, it only validates timothy, Just be there for them, and plant seeds, Nothing drastic.

@ braku, the most helpful thing you could do is pray for them. Some of the members are living with each other which actually makes it very dangerous and more difficult to leave-something I presume Tim did on purpose. There is a high no talk rule, I suspect if they were caught looking on this site they would be reported or face a public rebuking and verbal beating and told they are not 'broken' enough or 'do not love God' aka Tim. So if this person is currently living with other members he may never leave or they might start their own group like explained above. I tried to tell several of the members about the contradictions I found in the letters and how they didn't match up with the bible and I was kicked out after being reported by one of the higher ups I suppose. Most of the members would never defend their own stance, but just respond with more letters. This is typical because they are afraid they may sin and do something wrong so all they may do is send you more letters, then tell you 'you are not ready' and then block you. They must silence any opposition.

It can be difficult to have them see from an outsider's point of view. Most anyone who confronts them is labeled as an enemy and they have been threatened in several letters not to give any ear to you. They have been programed to think and talk a certain way, but all the while believing they were not coerced into their beliefs so they think they are given a choice. Like for example the little slogan they were told to tell other people when asked what church they belong to "I belong to no church of man...etc" or when during the studies Trent or someone would say "do we all agree on this doctrine" and no one was allowed to say no, question, or object because free will thinking would be a sin going against God aka Timothy so everyone just remains silent and they all think they are 'of one mind'.

In most cases any questions you had were to be put on hold and asked after the 4-6 hour bible study, because by that point your will was slowly being broken and you had already endured a mass amount of indoctrination, and hypnosis. That's all programming. The leaders, counselors, or "prophets in training" are actually what holds this group together-not Timothy. If Tim can get others to take the blame, he will never be held accountable. This is often why Tim will direct certain questions you may have to other members. Tim will make the rules and set the path but let you be the one to follow through. It's actually quite clever, but this is what he is doing none the less. Some of the leaders see Timothy's flaws because they are with him behind closed doors, so they blame themselves anytime something goes wrong, or go along with whatever band aid Tim puts on the bullet wound to make up for a failed prophecy. But, I believe some of the leaders want to keep their ranking of authority or 'chosen one who hears from God' title so they do not hold Tim accountable and the ones who are innocent want it so badly they just submit and ignore the evident mishaps. There is no question in my mind now, that Tim has researched brainwashing techniques- it's actually pretty disturbing but there are a lot of books on how to control people and start your own cult, etc.

So I agree with Ashbeck that seeds do help I personally know researching how cults work and talking to former members is what helped me come to reality and realize that's exactly what it was- a cult. However trying to share this with some other heavily programed members only made them cut ties with me. Good luck.

Thanks for all your help. I did talk to the person and found out that Timothy's prediction about everything going down in 2011 could supposedly be correct. He said that in God's time, the end of the year will be in April, or something like that.

@Braku, Becareful, Just trust in Jesus, EG amightywind is a Cult Yet some of their prophecies appear true, remember even false prophets can make prophecies that come true.

Just keep your eyes on Jesus, thats how cults pull you in, thats how i went in, because it looks different, Unique, But thats the Surface, try not to let your friend fall, Believe me.

God does not want us to worry about the rapture or these things, because it means you are looking more for an event and not for him. If you love God he will protect you, Believe me, If you love God and are on a plane and the plane is crashing, God will Save the whole plane for your sake, if it's not your time Yet.

You do not need TrumpetcallOfgod to be saved, All you need is to believe and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and he will change you from the inside out.

But the amazing thing i see is, Trumpetcall is Exposing AMightywind and Amightywind is exposing trumpetcall

Its funny you mention that Ashbeck, I just saw that yesterday as well on youtube. Its interesting that people can be so programmed as to see the fact that another group is a cult but not thier own. It just shows how powerful the indoctrination is for those who are involved. I even noticed in myself some of the things SelahSelah was saying about former cult members, the indoctrination is so deep you can't see it in yourself.

@Braku - I know it can be hard to know what to do, and I don't know that there is any real science to it but what the others said is right. You have to tread softly, but at the same time try and plant some seeds of doubt in thier minds. It will be hard, and they will likely shut you out (especially if they have been involved for a long time).
Don't get discouraged, and pray lots for them. It took 4 straight very long days of a cult specialist to get me to see the light. It may help for you to get as educated as you can on how cults work so you can subtly start pointing out to this person things you see that can trigger some questions. It may also help to protect you when you get involved in this warfare (believe me it is a warfare, and it's dangerous). Pray constantly that you will not be drawn into any deception (I will pray for you too), without God anyone is susceptible to it so you can't think you are impervious. I hope you are successful, God be with you.

I saw this Video on youtube, You guys should check out, Trumpetcall has the characteristics.

Youtube- How CUlts work (MUST SEE)

@ Ashbeck and LLG, Well put, there has always been an excuse for failed rapture predictions, some like SDA will say "well Jesus moved into the throne room for investigative judgment" JWs will say "Jesus did come, just not in the flesh" Harold camping will say "Christ came back 'spiritually' I had the calculations wrong, let me postpone 5 months while God tortures you".

It is a very dangerous thing, because many people put their life savings and sell their homes for the hope of something NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR HOUR OR MONTH OR YEAR. I no longer listen to people who claim to the know the date. Usually they have a hidden agenda. It only leads to disappointment and mistrust of anyone else who says they hear from God. Some of Harold Camping's followers committed suicide because they had given everything away for a lie. Jesus said the end would not come until the gospel is preached to all the world, and I don't think that has fully happened yet because some people in other countries such as China have never even heard of Jesus.


@ Braku, the trouble with this is (and while I see why it is easy for many of the followers to believe this, there is a Holy Day-Passover (they don't celebrate Easter) in April. But also noteworthy the Jewish New Year-Rosh Hashanah according to the Gregorian Calendar is between Sept. and Oct. has passed) that it gives Tim an indefinite amount of unaccountable predictions. I also heard that Tim spoke with a counselor on the phone who was trying to exit their family member from this group and Tim said "If the rapture does not happen in 2011, then I am a false prophet".

April of 2012 is -not December 2011.

If these letters are "modern words given to modern man for this modern generation's sake" then wouldn't you assume that the time frame would be the American-Gregorian calendar when he is speaking to an American prophet who is giving this information to Americans when he said 2011? Why wouldn't Tim specify this? Tim said he is one of the 144,000, but aren't the other ones who are supposedly dispersed in different countries, on their own calendar as well? I think it's important for us to keep in mind Tim said God is speaking through him like NO ONE ELSE BEFORE (that means any other biblical prophets or patriarchs of old).

Regardless of the calendar used, I think we need to take into consideration that since Tim heard God so eloquently when God told Tim of exact Holy Day dates for the past several years (even when they didn't line up with the Gregorian Calendar) during all the important festivals they celebrated, that Tim would be in-tune with God's preferred calendar already.


Like Ashbeck said the Bible does say we are not to be caught sleeping when Christ comes. But that does not mean that God wants us to be preoccupied in a constant state of panic with concerns about being raptured or every little thing like birds falling out of the sky pointing to when the rapture will happen-if there even is such a thing. Our focus should be on spreading the gospel and loving others. Timothy made me focus so much on my shortcomings and failures so that I lost track of things like Matthew 25:34-40. The Bible says that God wants an intimate relationship with us and that relationship does not have to involve Timothy or these letters, or obedience and participation to the 'flockers' group/ letters studies. Timothy teaches if members are not completely submissive "broken" to the mission of the letters they will not be raptured. It is a works mentality and when members finally climb to the top of ladder to reach Timothy's unattainable God's acceptance, he moves up another 3 steps. It is spiritual abuse. Tim uses fear to keep his followers-this is his greatest tool for control. Fear should not be the motivating factor for following God.

Please refer to "Authority Unlimited - Chapter 3" above 'Passages are often taken out of context and their true meanings distorted; but these groups also correctly interpret many verses. That is why it is so difficult to see what they are doing.' Tim does take the "touch not the Lord's anointed" verse out of context so no one will dare question Him, because the members think they will be questioning God if they do-as described in that same Chapter above. Tim says to speak against Him or any of the leaders is worthy of 'being thrown into the fire' but there is nothing in the Bible about true followers of Christ losing their salvation for doubting any prophet or letters. It doesn't really make a lot of sense, because Tim preached against Calvinism (being able to lose ones salvation) but now He is teaching that speaking against Him and the letters will make you lose your salvation (even though Jesus Christ said in Luke 12:10 people who speak against the Son of Man can be forgiven) it makes you wonder if Tim thinks he is better than Jesus.


I have seen that video Ashbeck along with many others and there is no argument that they have all the characteristics of a cult. It is very hard to dismiss it as just a coincidence. You can also read on many similarities between Camping and Tim here
[www.bibleandscience.com]
[www.jesus-is-savior.com]


But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
-1 Thessalonians 5:8-11

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
-1 John 4:18