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Re: Theohumanity, aka Daniel Stacy Barron
Posted by: jos.hoebe ()
Date: June 27, 2008 07:28AM

Quote
arlo
Jos,

I am suspicious as well. After reading your response, I do not think
that you are really out of EBE.

In your response you include many of the premises and terms
I have heard from my brothers and found in the No Such Thing book.

Thank you for your time,

Kurt

Hello Kurt,
That’s a real funny thing you say. I would not be out of EBE? My dear, I was never really in. My wife was in EBE and I have done an introduction seminar with [Heidi M.]. Also I did three session with Werner Eifried as Facilitator. I was also once for a avraprana massage by Gertrud Sweikert. That was all. Yes I was also at the celebration day when Daniel Barron came in Hamburg. That was the first time I saw him. And the last time too. I saw a tiny little man drunk of all attention and red wine. I saw a man that wants to be a king, that wants to be rich, that wants to be seen and admired. I saw also a lot of people that admire him, that take him as a king, that see him as someone special. I saw also a man who was only busy with himself, that gave no attention to the one he was with, that thought to remember something, but it was just a thought and not the real thing. I saw also a man was a lot of pain and hurt inside and wanting to get rid of it. In short: he is a normal being. Because of that, he is okay.
But he is not okay, because he claims something and that is that he can heal your brothers, or Heidi or Elke, or whomever. He made a wonderfull kind of therapy, he doesn’t want it to be named a therapy. Here is what Mark Shapiro said about it:
> Theohumanity is a spiritual paradigm that offers a state of consciousness
> and healing has heretofore NEVER been ever defined much less attained,this
> is a simple and indisputable fact, and so EBE cannot be just reduced to a
> therapy. It isn't therapy, it's the practice of the enlightenment of the
> emotional body, which is the doorstep of Enheartenment. It's a whole new
> value system that will rip you to the bone, not help you cope better like
> therapy. If you don't get the difference then EBE cannot serve you, it's
> that simple, which is what you trumpet when you say you want to do it as
> therapy. It's not. It's the complete opposite of therapy because it causes
> you to lose the ability to compensate for difficult emotions. Think about
> this. Deconstructive vs. constructive.
And there they go wrong. They make it something so special and unattainable, but it is just another theorie and therapy. A therapy to learn to understand your wounding. That is what all therapy is about. It is also a theorie, because up till now, none of them who where in EBE are healed, as is clear by the disappearance of Heidi, Elke and a lot of other people who were in EBE for years.
I agree with the therapy, not with the idea of facilitators.
I agree with the theory, not with the idea of enlightenment (of the emotional body).
I agree that there are heartfelt people doing EBE, but not with dictator how I have to run my life or how your brothers have to run their lives. I don’t agree with Daniel Barron requirements for interns and facilitators when he doesn’t walk the way he talks.
I studied EBE, like I have studied many therapy. I tasted it too. I practiced it too, to understand what it is. To me that is a good and real way to understand things. I understand EBE. As a therapy, not as a means to enlightenment.
Because he is bullshiting the whole EBE-thing into a cult, doesn’t mean that all of it is bullshit.
I am not in EBE. I am a therapist and I use therapeutic tools. EBE is one of them. I do not use all of it, like the surrogacy things. I also do not want to facilitate, because who am I to facilitate you? Can’t you do that yourself? I don’t take that responsibility out of your hands. Daniel Barron does, because he then can feel himself powerful. Well that’s his poverty and pity.

I don’t know what your question was, Kurt, but your missing the link with your idea, I am in EBE. You are indeed suspicious. Probably of old experiences and wounds? That is how that happened with me. I have had bad experiences with EBE people. Probably you’re one of them?
Well that’s up to you and fine with me. If I can do something for you to get your brothers back into reality, that’s fine with me too. I can’t force you to take my hand, but I am here.

In love,

Jos



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2008 11:30PM by rrmoderator.

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Re: Theohumanity, aka Daniel Stacy Barron
Posted by: jos.hoebe ()
Date: June 27, 2008 03:48PM

Kurt,

Another thing is: If it is real, if you are real and not faking about your issue, then you don’t know EBE. Then you haven’t tried it yourself. Then that’s also why you don’t understand your brothers and why you can’t contact them. It’s quite easy to get in contact with them. Go to an EBE seminar and experience what it is and how it works. But keep on being skeptical and suspicious. Be there just for yourself to understand what is in it for you and to understand your brothers. Be a spy, a secret agent.
Probably you will meet then your brothers and will be able to relate to them in a new way. Then try really to listen to them. Be open for what they are saying. You don’t need to agree with them, but it will be good for you, for them, to hear and accede them as they are. That is for sure a great lesson in communication.
Just look in the tread how Eric Grace speaks of EBE. Eric knows that EBE is also very valuable. He knows also that DB makes shit of it. That is the real issue with EBE as it is practiced now. And he probably also has seen that the premises of DB are fake. Enlightenment of the emotional body is not possible. Yes, you can shed your light on your emotions, and that’s a very good thing, but it has nothing to do with enlightenment.
It is very useful to research yourself in whatever way. To do therapy, to learn new ways of communicating, relating and understanding yourself and others. EBE is in that matter a good way to understand that so called “your” self. And forget all the rest.
If you do therapy really well and keep on being aware that is all about understanding yourself, you will become a “better” human being, one who knows better how to relate and to communicate with himself and others. You, the world, need that. It is a gift, you can give yourself, your family, the world.

I learned of EBE that in me is a very heavy instance, I name the lawyer. It also has a name: Maitre Robert de Collignon. In EBE terms, he is my punisher sentinel. When this instance acts in and on me, I am terrible as hell and not at all in contact with the world and other people. I then only want to be righteous and I will let “them” know too. This lawyer has been there in my life and destroyed a lot of relations. It has cost me also lots of money. I lost friends because of this instance. (In a certain way, you can hear him talking in the letters and comments I wrote in this tread). I am glad I now can recognize this instance in me, and that it will not act all the time. That made me more communicable. I got new friends trough it and have become a better therapist. In that respect, I respect EBE (but not Daniel Barron with his Theohumanity).

I wish you all the best to understand yourself and your brothers and hope you will find your ways to get in contact, communication and relation with them.

Jos

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Re: Theohumanity, aka Daniel Stacy Barron
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: June 27, 2008 09:01PM

Kurt:

Thanks for bringing EBE to the attention of this message board.

See [enhearten.org]

This is an explanation of EBE.

Also see [enhearten.org]

This is EBE's response to the question of whether or not it is a "cult."

See [www.culteducation.com]

This discusses the issue of recognizing a "cult."

Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who wrote the definitive book about thought reform (often called "brainwashing") also wrote a paper about cult formation. Lifton defined a cult as having the following three characteristics:

1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

2. A process [is in use] call[ed] coercive persuasion or thought reform.

3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

This is Lifton's discussion of how "thought reform" (commonly called "brainwashing") works.

It's interesting to see that EBE felt a need to address the issue of "cultism."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

9. The group/leader is always right.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2008 09:06PM by rrmoderator.

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Re: Theohumanity, aka Daniel Stacy Barron
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: June 27, 2008 09:19PM

jos.hoebe:

"Another thing is: If it is real, if you are real and not faking about your issue, then you don’t know EBE. Then you haven’t tried it yourself. Then that’s also why you don’t understand your brothers and why you can’t contact them. It’s quite easy to get in contact with them. Go to an EBE seminar and experience what it is and how it works. But keep on being skeptical and suspicious. Be there just for yourself to understand what is in it for you and to understand your brothers. Probably you will meet then your brothers and will be able to relate to them in a new way. Then try really to listen to them."

Isn't it possible for Kurt to have a relationship with his brothers without becoming involved in EBE?

What about visiting with his brothers away from the group?

Why must EBE become a pivotal part of their relationship?

Isn't it possible to relate as a family on another level without involving EBE?

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Re: Theohumanity, aka Daniel Stacy Barron
Posted by: jos.hoebe ()
Date: June 27, 2008 11:30PM

Question:
Isn't it possible for Kurt to have a relationship with his brothers without becoming involved in
EBE?

Answer JH:
It’s in the eating of the pudding. That’s the real problem.
If I never taste chocolate, how will I understand it?
But be skeptical.
EBE is also very easy to learn.
You can make a game of it with family and friends.
The whole thing is questioning yourself and let another instance, in you, answer.
When you do, the same happens as is known in Trance, Hypnoses, Systemic Constellations like Family-, Organization-, and Project constellations and a lot of other things there are in the world.
You than make contact with a field you are not. That field answers as an insight or truth. This insight or truth, you can work with and because of that relate to it too. That you can do yourself, or with help from someone else, a therapist, friend, brother, or with a questionnaire.
The field then really opens itself and the field in all his wideness reveals itself trough the attendant and in everything and one in that field. The field will give all kinds of information depending on the questioner / the attendant / observer, is giving in the formulation of the question of story. The field shows the answer OF him or her as, how and as and to what he or she is essentially identified.
This information is very useful, but also very tricky. Can be.
When the attendant is questioning himself he is per se biased. There for it is useful to have a coach or a group as observer and servers to your benefit. That should be the approach of Theohumanity and Daniel Barron. Just because of, that is the most save way to do it.
You have to learn, that you, YOU, are as yourself NOT involved. You can only identify with it. Then you experience it to more or lesser degree as applying to you. The more you fiel applied, the more you will be in and as that patron the field is showing you.
Then you can learn how to see the patron to get out of that identification.
Finally you are not identified anymore and only an observer. Such people are the past coaches and therapist. They are not involved, biased, and stay out of the and that field.
Daniel Barron knows this for sure, but he thinks it is not able to do it, because of the identification rate when people are doing that all by the way.
To my opinion he could also tell every attendee that is all about that.
And what’s the problem? People are per se identified with whatever. Well learn them to say to each other how to cope with that to become able to contact, communicate and digest your experiences. Then they learn and will recognize what is fake and not us, me myself and I.

Question:
What about visiting with his brothers away from the group?

J.H:
I think they have learned to be with their selves and their own process. I can tell you that normally someone takes, when really interested in his self, quit some time to learn to deal with all the new experiences. After a year (or two) they come out of it themself. What Kurt can do is being open to them and to love them as they are now in their lives and to be curious to it. Also curious to how it feels to do EBE or whatever “trip” or therapy or way of living.
Then they will feel no aggressor and there will be no need to defend. The more Kurt opens himself to his brothers on their terms of meeting, the more he can meet them everywhere. But otherwise it will be difficult, because of the sensibility and vulnerability of his brothers. They will easily way hurt in a subtle way and will easily see the contact as useless.

Question:
Why must EBE become a pivotal part of their relationship?

J.H:
Because it already is. When you take that, then you can take it as a new point of reference on with one can build a new coordination (coordinating) system, which includes the past and being family and at least in and as that related to each other, and interested.

Question:
Isn't it possible to relate as a family on another level without involving EBE?

J.H:
The family is part of the wounds. In all therapies that is made clear. Only when the families admit the wounding, contact and communication is again possible, because than the experiences can finally and or better be digested.
It takes some time to digest it all.
When EBE is done well, Kurt brothers will know how to relate to him in a better way of contact and communication and in a more openly loving manner.
Most family members don’t like that. Then the relation will be lowered in the direction of null.

Theohumanity is a cult because it has closed his doors for open use, because DB wants to be seen as the great Daniel. The best of them all.
He is dumm too, because for the money he could earn a lot more by opening the whole thing and be approachable in every respect. To finds the way to do that. When it is that good he says it is?

My advice to Kurt is: contact me, and I give you hands to EBE and the like yourself to understand what I mean. Then you can learn yourself and your family and friends the benefits of it. Your brothers will surely come back.

Jos

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Re: Theohumanity, aka Daniel Stacy Barron
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: June 27, 2008 11:49PM

jos.hoebe:

Very interesting.

It seems that anyone attempting to have a continuing relationship with a family member involved with EBE may find that to be a "real problem" unless they agree to become personally involved in EBE.

You say Kurt's brothers may otherwise see see "contact useless."

But isn't contact with family members possible even though people have different belief systems, e.g. a sibling converts to another religion, supports a different political party etc.

Why can't a brother agree to disagree about participating in EBE, but still see family members?

You also said, "The family is part of the wounds...Only when the families admit the wounding, contact and communication is again possible, because than the experiences can finally and or better be digested."

Isn't it possible that some people come from happy families, though not perfect, have no significant "wounds" to address and/or digest?

You have also included EBE within the category of "all therapies."

How is EBE recognized as a therapy, i.e. are its therapists or trainers licensed professionals with a state or professional board, e.g. marriage and family therapists, licensed counselors or clinical psychologists?

What is the required education and training for an EBE leader, e.g. college degree in psychology, internship, etc.

What is Daniel Barron's education, professional training and licensing? Is he a Ph.D. clinical psychologist or M.D. psychiatrist?

Typically when people seek help with personal/family problems or "wounds," they see a trained licensed professional that has accountability to a licensing board, professional standards etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2008 11:55PM by rrmoderator.

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Re: Theohumanity, aka Daniel Stacy Barron
Posted by: jos.hoebe ()
Date: August 05, 2008 11:58PM

Strange, isn’t it: Kurt never replied. I think he is an EBE-er. I know it as their tactics to say sad things of brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers who has lost or quit contact with their families. If it’s real, it’s a sad thing indeed. And it is real too, and therefore very sad. The latest thing is that on the site of theohumanity the photos of the facilitators and even of barron himself are taken out. None of them is to be contacted directly. That’s sad too. El patrone Daniel and Mama Yvonne can now overview the mails first before it is directed to the addressee. Sad thing indeed. When EBE is that wonderful as Barron says, why would he be closing it all up? Is there anyone who can tell me that? Why do you never answer a question, Daniel, Yvonne, Werner, Gertrude, Mark?

love, Jos

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Re: Theohumanity, aka Daniel Stacy Barron
Posted by: jos.hoebe ()
Date: August 29, 2008 12:56AM

again, barron changed his european leader. Now it is Anna and not anymore Yvonne. Could someone mail to them and asked what happened? My name is blocked. there for this question.

love, Jos

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EBE and Daniel Barron
Posted by: ericgrace ()
Date: August 29, 2008 03:27PM

A few things to pass on. I found a great article by Robert Masters about cults and creating authentic community at http://www.robertmasters.com/newsletter/October2007.pdf I've also added to my original posting on my gaia page here: [pods.gaia.com] http://pods.gaia.com/realcontact/discussions/view/158767#158767

and Jos I experience your writing as very fervorent, with a lot of cyncism. Were you hurt in some way out of all of this? I am not understanding if you were not that involved much why you would be so vehement towards Daniel?

Also Daniel wrote on his website a response to me and others that have posted here. You can find that at: [www.theohumanity.org] http://www.theohumanity.org/theohumanity/question.html

I was surprised by his actually giving any of us notice/acknowledgement by a response. Thank you. Good for him. I appreciate that he actually looked at it. I don't believe anything that is said here or anywhere else will ever make a dent in his sense of rightness and non-belief belief system. Especially never enough for him to apologize for how he has treated me and many others.

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Re: EBE and Daniel Barron
Posted by: jos.hoebe ()
Date: August 30, 2008 03:06AM

Good gracious, Eric, you passed a few things on, but it took quite some time to read it all. Thanks anyway. The Robert master thing I have to read yet, but your blog on the gaia-site and Daniel Barron comment (new, the old text is quit different) I read. What you write is impressive and what you have experienced is also the thing why I am cynical. I became even more cynical when reading Daniel Barron’s comment on cultism. In it, Daniel Barron tries to look like the one who knows it all. But he does so by lying about his past. He claimed to be the incarnation of Yeshua, Buddha and whomever. Even when he would be that, what good is it to claim that? How emotional immature one has to be to claims something like that? To get authority? The madhouses are full with this kind of people. Also what good does it to you and others?
Only emotional immature people will fall into that trap.

It’s true, I was not so involved in EBE. I never was a facilitator or intern. I happened to be a student for some time and my wife for some time more. But I was hurt too. Hurt because the one thing that is true in EBE, i.e. one needs to be emotional mature to be able to communicate, he, because of his own emotional immaturity, falsifies it all. That has hurt me, as human being.
As he says in his comment on cultism (Quote): Until we are clear about the true emotional body-based reasons for why what separates us has such enormous power to create the inevitable suffering that arises from our unconscious woundings, we have no hope of ever coming together in Love in any unified way as a species in any true and enduring manner.

And that is preciously what is wrong with him. His unconscious wounds must be that big, that I have no hope he will ever come in love in an unified way as human being in any true and enduring manner.
Because of that he kicked you out, Chritian, Heidi, Elke (and probably Yvonne too), kicked my wife out, and me too. He only wants to be praised, etc, because critics only can be coming from childhood woundings, etc. Probably he never heard of feedback? Of getting critical information that could have bits of truth?
An emotional mature human being can hear anybody telling him something, because the other may see something I did not see yet. However emotional mature I am, I still have unconscious parts in me that blind me and make me deaf. When I am really emotional mature I will know and notice it right the way someone says something of me and my behavior. And when it are real critics it will light my understanding of my being and when it is not true, then it is still true to that person, the critic, and then we have a context to communicate on. But Daniel Barron does not understand that. While Daniel has been Jesus, etc, is the big father, etc and so on.

Yes I am cynical towards this man, not so much to his teaching. So far I have been able to study it, I experience quit a benefit in it and think it could help mankind towards emotional maturity, but not as long Mr. Barron behaves like this. Then he first has to be more open minded towards his paradigm and his own being. I am vehement because of that.
He claims to be a teacher, even claims to be the best ever has been and even that could be fine with me, but even more so, he has to be compassionate to his (would be) students and find a way for his higher to meet our lower. Because of that every teaching has to adjust itself to its students and their time of appearance and is therefore doomed to be incomplete.
When Daniel is that emotional mature, and sage and saint as he claims he is, he must know that. He must know that he therefore cannot claim to be the only best there is. Only Durex can do, but that is also just vanity. What about all other brands? What about all other brands of spirituality? They are all good for the level someone is on. It has no value to claim superiority, because then you are as stupid as your neighbor is.

To it come all his faults he makes.
First: the claim of emotional body enlightenment is bullshit. Emotional maturity is possible at best, but not enlightenment, because that belongs to the realm of consciousness and in that consciousness appears emotions that can be seen instead of identified with it. Not to be identified with them (and not denied) is being emotional mature. That’s it.
Second: no facilitator will ever be emotional enlightened and will therefore not be able to be as Daniel claims they will be. You yourself have proven that. Werner Eifried and all the other facilitators here in Germany, have showed it to me. You were full of unresolved identified emotions and so are Werner and all other facilitators. The claims Daniel put on to them is too much. Also for them, but also for the faciltant. The facilitant will find that out after awhile when he has become himself more mature. And that happens only due to the facilitant himself, but not because of the maturity of the facilitator. The facilitator can only be much of a help when he is indeed integer, genuine and seasoned by himself and the study of his own being.
Third: Quote from the Theohumanity website: Furthermore, an intrinsic element of cultism is the belief that the teacher or the teaching possesses some kind of Absolute Truth or Final Wisdom, neither of which is possible to any human being no matter how outshined one may be by the Radiant Transcendental Being or enlightened in standard Buddhist enlightenment. Theohumanity holds no such view, never holding its own teaching as any kind of Absolute. It only invites people to look into and feel into what it offers as its truths as a self-validating embodied experience not based in any belief. As the teacher of Theohumanity i am not attached to my own teaching, able to stand for it unapologetically with all the passion of my being, and at the same time equally ready at any moment for it to be made ash in the fire of what may be actually true in Truth.
This above is one of the great bullshit lies of Daniel. Being detached from his teaching. Oh no. Look for his claims that he, Daniel Barron, is Yeshua, etc. That is too much and of no help to whomever. No one can verify it nor can Daniel prove it. It is of no good to the teaching and that’s the fourth too.
The teaching and the teacher should be two different things. If EBE is a real teaching, then one can be teached to become a teacher. When the teaching is exclusive, as it seems to be now, then a student has to become a Daniel Barron. You have tried that and seen that that doesn’t work.
Fifth: Quote form the Theohumanity website: The four who most actively campaign in blogs and cult networks about the dangers of EBE are actually all 5s or 9s, and two are actually a 5 in intimacy with a 9, which closes the consciousness circle completely as they cosign each other's reality. One of these is a former facilitator who has actually so harmed people he formerly worked with by moving emotions through his mental body, that much remedial work has been needed to help those in his aftermath about what emotion really is and how to feel it and heal it in healthy domains. Empowering him to do this with people was my own blind spot: I could not imagine at the time that people could run emotions within the mental body that pervasively and thus do deep harm in representing emotional healing dynamics. In the last few years i have learned this painful lesson.
With it Daniel shows he himself does NOT know all about his own teaching and the possibilities of a (immanture) human being. He shows with it his own immaturity and also the danger of his teaching. When he, as founder, doesn’t know this can and will happen, (the same thing happened with Heidi), how will a faciltant becomes to know this?
Sixth: Quote form the Theohumanity website by requirments for facilitators: 8. Agrees to never engage in any form of sexual touching or activity whatsoever with a facilitant, and if mutual desire for personal relationship with a facilitant does occur, to immediately cease facilitator/facilitant roles, consult with EBE Institute staff, and give adequate time to explore possible contributory unconscious unhealthy motives to the attraction.
He has never done this unto himself. He falls in love with his Gabriella, (that’s of course okay), but in no time she became facilitator. She was not first intern, as required. How is that possible? Is she his most top student or was he just horny?
Seventh: As you can see now on his website, he closed everything more up. You can’t contact a facilitator directly. Also all their names and photo have disappeared. Also there is again a new seminar organiser. That’s okay of course, but why not being open? Why not telling why that people has gone? We can’t bear the truth? Or can’t Daniel?

It takes too far for me now, to write everything down. Fact is: Daniel Barron has a good tongue: split.
He is well educated, a good writer and an even better liar.

Yes I am critical, cynical and vehement. EBE as teaching and therapy deserve a better exposer. The founder of it is a dangerous guy, at least to his own terms. He is emotional immature and will do his students a lot of harm.
I hope that people interested in EBE read this forum, and see for themselves what it is: a therapy and a good one with a good and seasoned humble therapist.
The tree will be known by its fruits. Daniel has given up till now sour fruit. Who will eat?

Love,
Jos

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