Tmason........so you and little Paul were only 5 or 6 years old? I wonder if JRS's attorney son in law, Helphand, (who should have known the laws pertaining to child labor) the Holder's or your parents even gave a flying fig that since 1938 there were child labor laws to prevent the abuse of children working under the conditions that you describe. What a moral travesty.

Sorry but I don't buy your belief that had the workers in the mine had the proper equipment, the mining co would have found gold and silver. Don't buy it at all. IMO the whole thing was a shameful fraud beginning with Holder's fake news about his mine vision.

-------------------------------------------------------
> SouthGate Wrote:
>
> > What's this thing about Marilyn asking the
> > ministries to marry her? Did anyone ask her
> what
> > the hell is that was supposed to mean? I'm
> going
> > out on a limb here and I don't know for a fact,
> > but I would guess that what people interpreted
> it
> > to mean wasn't what she meant.
>
> Good point Southgate. I think we have learned from posters that some of the churches were more cultish than others based upon the pastor. Marilyn was not a good public communicator (neither am I). I'm not defending M as being misunderstood, but on the tapes JRS would often try to clarify her comments. That said, in the Bible the use of the metaphor "Bride of Christ" and "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" are subject to many interpretations by readers and also viewed by some as a darn mystery. I recall a post by Invisible (which I am unable to locate) in which Marilyn wanted the congregation to submit their spirits to M without really expounding on what it all meant. Invisible wouldn't have anything to do with it.

So Larry, can you expound on what you meant? Did M actually say "marry her" or was that an interpretation by your local church?

I am glad to hear from Tmason, who was at the mine as a child. The information I had about the mine in the 70s, when that debacle was going down, was limited for a couple of reasons. First, all things pertaining to monetary investments were irrelevant grown-up problems, and I was temporarily trapped in a teenage brain that simply did not care. Second, it seems that the leadership really did limit the information. I cared very much about discord that suddenly arose, closed meetings, whispers that the Walk was splitting up, and people who did leave. My friends and I were concerned we would be asked to make a decision, but what was right? We did not know enough at that time to ask the right questions, but were upset that a number of Walk people had turned against the Lord and we would not see them again. Once the debacle resolved we did not ever speak of it again, certainly no one from the pulpit did. The people who left ceased to exist, and I understood that they were dead to us, even if I had wanted to keep in touch or had known how. Personally, I never realized there were people actually living and working long term at the mine. I thought people left because they disagreed with Stevens as to what was the will of God in the matter. We understood and believed that every person who left was deceived, left God, and was no longer in the remnant (how we loved calling ourselves "the remnant"). I certainly concur with leaving the Walk, but still cannot work out the attraction of living in a pile of rocks and sand as the alternative. Now I hear from Tmason of cherished childhood memories in the desert. Well, we all get only one childhood--and kudos to Tmason for finding the positives--but honest to God it sounds awful. How sad that a little child was reduced to such a demeaning lifestyle. You deserved better, Tmason. And LilyRose--right on with the child labor laws comment, and reminder that we consider this a very shameful event in the history of the very shameless Walk. It was not just a mistake, not just an error in judgment, not just a difference of opinion. It was deliberately fraudulent, and as I have said before I put all the blame on Stevens, who reputedly lost not one dime of his own money, and never attempted to make whole his own people who were defrauded. And Tmason, I am very interested in your perception of the Walk when you lived in the desert. You were so young, I know, but do you remember knowing of the Walk, of Stevens the apostle, did you have the same beliefs the Walk did, did any churches or people stay in contact with you? Did you, for instance, think you were doing God's work out there? What exactly did you think your purpose was there? Did you feel connected to anyone on the outside? Resentments? You mentioned "donations." I do not recall one request for donations, ever. Happy to be corrected, but if you think anyone from the Walk was supporting you financially, um, I do not think so.

Lili and Lamp,

I think you are both conflating issues a bit. There was someone or something supporting us at least at first. It did become apparent that the money was gone at some point. I did say that I can tell you there were no millions spent. I was five. Maybe there wasn't even hundreds of thousands spent. Keep in mind if PH was the mastermind, he lived there also, with his family. One would think the con man would spend a bit on himself. When the Holders left we knew it was over. My parents were left broke and destitute which is certainly why we avoided going back to the church. There are lot of people that old give you a more grown up perspective on the mine. I simply wanted to share my memories of actualy living there and seeing the goings on. Equipment, fuel, food, housing, all those things did come from somewhere.
My father held a PhD in forestry and soil science and was arguably the only one whom knew or had any inkling of what to do in terms of extracting gold. He spoke many times later of his belief that the PROCESS could have succeeded. Not that it would have ever happened with the hippies and burnouts that lived there at the mine. When we left the mine, and I think we were last, we moved into a shady motor court motel on miracle mile in Tucson. We had no afiliation with The Walk until 1977 in DC.
I never meant to imply that the mine was NOT a scam. I simply wanted to share my memories, which are good. I have no resentment towards anyone for the child labor at the mine or a Shiloh, which was a far greater abuse than the mine. I have great resentment and have often considered my legal options with respect to many things that happened (at Shiloh)but never did anything at the mine disturb me. I can share many, many things that were done that really f***** up the kids, including me. In my mind lIving in the middle of the desert was never one of them.
I do not recall any connection or talk of JRS and actualy had you asked me at that time I think RD Cronquist was the only "leader" I could have named for you. I never felt cut off or banished in any way. We had visitors on Harleys and a guy whom flew an airplane in also. We had no phone and the post office was 17 miles or so away down a rough dirt road.

Again, I can tell you what happened at the mine, I cannot tell you what was going on elsewhere. I wanted to share my memories for that very reason. That to connect the dots and align the entire scam we would need to know all angles and the deceit or lies that were told to the different factions at the time. Don't feel one bit bad for me. I had two older sisters and I know they thought they had died and gone to hell.
Socially a waste land for young girls.
Happy to share more later.

lily rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tmason........so you and little Paul were only 5
> or 6 years old? I wonder if JRS's attorney son in
> law, Helphand, (who should have known the laws
> pertaining to child labor) the Holder's or your
> parents even gave a flying fig that since 1938
> there were child labor laws to prevent the abuse
> of children working under the conditions that you
> describe. What a moral travesty.
>
> Sorry but I don't buy your belief that had the
> workers in the mine had the proper equipment, the
> mining co would have found gold and silver. Don't
> buy it at all. IMO the whole thing was a shameful
> fraud beginning with Holder's fake news about his
> mine vision.



I'm not so sure about the labor laws pertaining to certain things. Farmers used their kids on their farms for ages. You could be right about the law, but if Tmason didn't care why should anyone else. My wife has fond memories working in the kitchen as a child at church both South Gate and Anaheim.

Everything I've ever done a far as volunteering to do at church or for someone in the church, I've never felt ripped off because I did it of my own free will. Same goes with my tithes and offerings.

I don't know about the mine except what I've heard, so I can't really comment on it. I do know that Impact could/should have succeeded but didn't. I remember us putting together rollers in South Gate at the end.

One thing I've noticed is people on here still love some of the people that are still involved in the churches. Some people are still in contact with others that have left, because you can see it on Facebook. It still saddens me the way things have gone for way too long. I still read the This Weeks and have all the ones I've had from the beginning. I get more out of them now than I did back then. But when you go to so many services in one week, especially during the Feasts, it almost killed me. LOL!!! My wife wouldn't give me break. She still reminds me to pray for those in the church and those that are out.

I see a little flame that was imparted to all of us that hasn't been snuffed out no matter what.

SouthGate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I'm not so sure about the labor laws pertaining to
> certain things. Farmers used their kids on their
> farms for ages. You could be right about the law,
> but if Tmason didn't care why should anyone else.
>

Because Jesus told us to care about the abused, poor, disenfranchised. I don't think that's discussed in the This Weeks.

Tmason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lili and Lamp,
>
> I think you are both conflating issues a bit.
>

There was not conflating of the issues. The same could be said of you introducing yourself to the forum and internet by claiming you were sexually abused in the Walk. Because you didn't provide any support info that came across to me as sensationalism perhaps fake news. Your comment that if the Holder group in the desert had better equipment, they would have found gold also struck me as unsubstantiated. Some of us are just looking for the truth, not speculation or sensationalism. The conclusion by Lampschamp and me that the mine debacle was fraud was not speculation but the conclusion of the courts....a gold mine never existed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2017 02:24AM by lily rose.

SouthGate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I see a little flame that was imparted to all of
> us that hasn't been snuffed out no matter what.


I don't see that at all. You come across as an apologist for JRS and the Walk. Any flame that was imparted by the false and destructive ministry of John Robert Stevens I have earnestly tried to snuff out for decades.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2017 02:48AM by lily rose.

lily rose Wrote:

> I don't see that at all. You come across as an
> apologist for JRS and the Walk. Any flame that was
> imparted by the false and destructive ministry of
> John Robert Stevens I have earnestly tried to
> snuff out for decades.

Yes--esnuff talk of the supposed integrity of one John Robert Stevens. Using children to work in this slavish environment, even if the parents consented to it, is wrong. There are certainly many people that are preconditioned to view past oppression and exploitation as an ultimately positive thing...but it doesn't justify the actions of those that put them in that situation.

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