ralpher, I've quoted you in italics.


Fasting took place, and there was also a restaurant in the hotel--a major hotel--and some people went there, and there was also a small shop that sold snacks, and some people went there. The fast, in other words, was voluntary. In fact, everything was voluntary. The program no longer served its own food, that's true, but there were the delicious smells of freshly cooked meat exactly ten feet from the large meeting room where the exercises took place. And plenty of room in the restaurant with no reservation required.


ralpher, I hear what you are saying. Yes, people could buy food and were given that choice. And, many people in my school went on fasting and questioning their thoughts about it because they didn't want to be the ones who weren't taking their School seriously. Everyone was given a choice, and they were also told to "follow the simple directions". Many people ended up questioning their thoughts and complying, instead of taking their freedom of choice. Sure, things were "voluntary"... but there was definitely mind manipulation going on for a lot of people, forcing them internally to comply.

I believe that the voluntary part was more for convincing us, than actually giving us a choice. If we were given a choice, then who can blame BK for what we did? Forget the whole mind manipulation going on... outwardly, yes, it does appear that it was all voluntary, doesn't it? "It's your School," she said, and do with it what you will... but the underlying message is always... that if you really want this, you will comply, and if you don't... there's something wrong with your thinking.

Nobody put guns to our heads... but hello? To me, mind control and manipulation is forcing... because it's not an informed choice you're making to comply.

I hear you saying that you were not one of those people. And since you were not, I'm inclined to think that you didn't experience the weight of the mind control going on there, and therefore, are not the source to define reality for all of us here. Am I not just as entitled to my opinions and experiences as you are?


Participants were asked at the start to turn in cell phones, snacks, and so on. I kept my cell phone, and I noticed a lot of people did. In fact, I turned in nothing, because I found that aspect annoying. I called my fiance several times during the nine days. I did it in full view of many other participants. In other words, this aspect was also voluntary. Those who did turn in their phones were asked first to let their families know they could leave messages for them at the hotel desk. Several times during the 9 days, people were paged to the front desk to pick up such a message. And there were phones in the room, by the way.
[/i]



So, you were one of the lucky ones who didn't feel the need to commit to the program and comply 100%? That's wonderful for you. A lot of people found that aspect annoying, same as you, and then questioned their thoughts and surrendered. I was one of those. That was the beginning of the self-doubt that made the rest of the program dangerous for those of us who were compliant. I understand that you did not allow yourself to experience that. And, I think that's why you don't understand the other point-of-view being presented here. If you go back to The School and comply 100%, then we can talk about it like equals.

There were phones in the room... but who would use them while they were in a total state of compliance and self-questioning? You seem to have completely missed the point. I hear that you saw people who were not that influenced by the mind control going on. I also saw some who weren't. I actually skipped one of the exercises myself, to go outside and chat with those people about what was going on inside. However, I also saw plenty of people, who because of their deep desire to "get what they came for", were totally compliant, blissed out, and losing touch with reality very quickly.

You weren't one of those people. Okay.


We were asked to spend 4 hours in a city without speaking. However, we were told that if we wanted to speak, we could use several phrases, including asking for food (this was during the fast). Again, this was voluntary. A woman in the audience got upset at the idea, and Katie told her not to do the exercise--she invited everyone to do what they wanted to do. I noticed her and some others stayed behind at the hotel during this exercise.


You see, even I... the skeptic... felt apprehension about revealing all of that detail, after being instructed not to. Obviously, the brainwashing didn't affect you in the same way it did me and others. I can see that you have no problem breaking Katie's rules, but for those of us who really "worked it" during the School, it's different. We were brainwashed. Voluntary or forced? I dunno. I don't remember being forewarned that I would lose my ability to choose and think for myself if I "followed the simple directions", do you?


We were asked to choose one day to be 'silent' and to turn around our name tags to indicate that to others who would then know we didn't want to be spoken to or to speak. This was our choice to do--no one could possibly keep track of what day we did it, or if we did it at all. I was mostly silent, except when a couple of interesting people had interesting conversations going on--and at that point, I spoke!

Good for you! What am I supposed to do now? Am I supposed to realize how wrong I am, and feel like I don't "get it" because my experience was different than yours?


We were asked to eat silently, and usually people did that, but not always.


At my School, it was perfectly silent, and when it wasn't we were hushed by staff.


Everything that you are portraying as pressured is actually a structured and voluntary exercise in the school. That doesn't mean you didn't feel pressure--but where was that pressure coming from? When you were in High School, did you do everything that you felt pressure to do? Did you 'feel pressure' to wear your clothes in a certain way because others did? Most of us did--and we learned from that. Did you not learn to not feel pressured to do what others do? Do you have a hard time not buying a new car every two years? If so, this is an issue to work on. It's not a problem with what byron katie is doing.



Yes, that's it exactly. Because I felt the pressure and you didn't, it must be something wrong with me, right? And because you didn't feel the pressure, you are the one that's right? Am I now supposed to question my thoughts and see this as my own issue, because I've acknowledged that everything wasn't peachy keen? Because my experience and perception is different than yours, am I now supposed to feel like I'm the one projecting, question my thoughts, and come around to seeing you as doing me some great cosmic favor?

Did you feel pressure to reply to the people here? Do you feel pressure to keep defending Byron Katie? Have you "gone inside" of yourself to see if what that's about?

Or is the problem all really about my teenage years? (And what the hell does that have to do with anything anyway?)

Nice diversion, though. I can see that you learned a great deal at the School.


There are those who take things to excess. I was recently corresponding with someone I met at the school, and she started writing in ways that seemed like Katie's words, not her own. Guess what? I stopped corresponding with her. It doesn't interest me to talk to people who can't think for themselves. I find it boring. As an adult, I have the ability to not communicate with people who bug me!

Guess what? Katie says "Guess what" in the middle of illustrations just like that. You also seem to be writing in ways that seem like Katie's words. I wonder why that woman bothered you so much?

In RR's collection of readings, there is a fascinating essay by a renowned cult-expert--Margaret Singer. She writes on the subject of 'why the US marines are not a cult'. Let's see--an organization that forces people up at 3:00 in the morning to jog 5 miles, that intimidates, harrasses, and verbally abuses people--that trains them to kill--this is not a cult--and why not? She gives many reasons, but one of them is the most relevant: the participants know what they are getting themselves into before they get themselves into it.

Have I not also acknowledged that there are things about The Work and BK that don't fit the usual mold? Am I supposed to now feel like I'm less-informed than you?

It's probably playing into the hands of the anti-awareness movement people (just about everyone) on this blog to make this comparison, but the point is that although you don't know what the exercises are going to be before you sign up at Katie's school, once they are explained, you are informed, and there is absolutely nothing stopping you from wandering out of the large room, grabbing a hamburger with all the fixins, going up to your room, plopping on the bed, and chatting with your lover 3000 miles away while watching tv. Or better yet, calling for room service or a pizza to be delivered from your room phone. The fact that most people don't is a tribute to how much people are learning from these exercises. And to some people's inability to simply say 'no thanks'?

There's nothing stopping people from walking out... except the repeated mantra/instructions to "follow the simple directions"... and the promise that if you do, you will "get what you came for"... which is freedom... and the constant questioning of your own thoughts every time you want to deviate from the simple directions. Obviously, you believe this did not affect you. You've made your point, and I openly reject it.

After paying thousands of dollars for a seminar, lots of people will go with the willingness to conform. Apparently, that was not your goal. At the School I was in, there were bipolar people, anoxeric people, depressed people... people who were obviously vulnerable and desperate... which equals a willingness to comply with the program.

BTW, relating to another set of questions, Katie's husband is a renowned--and I mean highly renowned, widely acknowledged to be a brilliant scholar and translator of ancient texts. He's involved in her work as well, cleaning up the prose, I think. Most writers have editors. It's not a pathology to have a co-writer or editor. In fact, nothing of what I have heard complained about here requires a pathological explanation. I'm not sure why so many of you require it. It's a kind of conspiracy theory obsession. Every idea you don't like is a conspiracy.

Every idea that I don't like is a conspiracy? It's stupefying how you just read people's minds like that.
I am acquainted with Stephen, and he's not so highly renowned or brilliant as you say. Renowned... among what group of people? BK fans?

Am I supposed to feel one-upped by your "infinite" knowledge?

Years ago, and I mean years--like twenty--I did the forum with Werner Erhard himself. It left a bad taste in my mouth. Not for me. But I feel no need to pathologize the experience as someone trying to abduct me, because that's not what happened. They invited me to sign up for another course, and I said no thanks.

Are we now supposed to see you as some great example for us?

I guess you just feel the need to pathologize those of us who have come to see what's happened to us, and angry about the loss of self, and are helping each other, then. Is that right?

Ah, now that's a comparison. You guys are like alien abduction victims. You are absolutely convinced there are UFOs circling, trying to bring you up into their ship. Question it.

Please, ralpher, take your own advice. I wonder if you have any idea how you actually appear to other people. You're like a walking contradiction, telling us to question these things... meanwhile you're the one whose not questioning it, but defending it with every tactic in the books.

Reply if you feel the pressure to defend, but just know that I'm done with this conversation. Until you start questioning these things, this whole conversation is totally pointless. You will not win anyone here over to your side of things, and you will not get the validation you appear to be looking for in this forum. I feel very sure of that. Good bye, and good luck.

-jj



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2008 03:57AM by jj52.

vlinden,

You are so sharp and quick witted! I enjoy your posts and get a lot out of them. Thanks for all your support.

-jj

more interesting all the time.
by the way, as mentioned, since 'ralpher' did not 'commit' to the program 100%, then obviously 'ralpher' doesn't know what the program REALLY is about, right?
If 'ralpher' is telling the truth, then ralpher is not qualified to comment on the Mind-Control aspects of it, on a personal level. (but its clear Ralpher is doing Byron Katie internet propaganda, and being an apologist).

also, as mentioned, since 'ralpher' has been doing self-help LGATS for more than 20 years, wow, you must be enlightened by now! (or working in the LGAT industry for a living, more likely).

using the phrase over and over...VOLUNTARY...VOLUNTARY....
has a hypnotic quality to it. Very disturbing...

Its a deliberate deception.

You see, this is all about Unconscious Compliance, getting people to do things without their conscious awareness. Byron Katie and her people know that, they've read the books, you can see it in the course design.
So they get leverage on people, and then give them a false choice...as in...
--do what I say and reach Enlightenment
--or go each a burger and stay in your life of hell.

meanwhile, you know damn well that Byron Katie is running backstage and scarfing some food down.

But this harping about VOLUNTARY shows they know exactly what they are doing.
People have been persuaded to do dangerous and even deadly things in a "Voluntary" way, using these techniques. That is what this is all about!!

Hey, guess what. The LGAT goal is to make you give them your money and mind and LOVE it.
It strengthens their pitch for them to say..."hey, there's the door, use it any time you want to".
Its called reverse psychology, even on the most childish level.

But no one can say Byron Katie does NOT know what she is doing.
FASTING, to weaken people's Wills. That is the oldest cult-trick in the book, its works.
Taking their cell phones, that is a symbol of SURRENDERING your relationships to Byron Katie.

Byron Katie and her people know exactly what they are doing down to a SCIENCE.
You get 300 people in a room, and start doing all this stuff to them.
Its all planned and designed, you can see the various parts emerge. Its straight up textbook LGAT.

This is really funny.

According to Ralpher, you won't have any problems if you just don't do what Byron Katie tells you to do. WELL WHY THE HELL GO TO HER SCHOOL THEN RALPHER???? Did you do anything she asked? Or were you like a high school kid not going to class but just hanging out cause that's where all your friends are? You still didn't answer my question about why this lifetime of New Age seeking. When does it end? When have you learned what there is to learn? Forty years of self-help and there are STILL questions?? I don't, as they say at Landmark, get it.

Is it EVER going to be enough? In my frigging humble opinion this is nothing but spiritual materialism and narcissistic navel gazing. More seminars, more CDs and tapes and books and gadgets and expensive schools for enlightenment.

But oh, don't worry about Byron Katie's school, kids, you don't have to do anything she tells you to do if it seems annoying, dangerous, destabilizing, confusing, incomprehensible, irresponsible or stupid! Have fun!

You know, when you pay good money for the carnival, you tend to want to ride the rides and eat all the crap they sell. Otherwise, what are you doing there?

Ralpher, we ARE balanced here. Everyone talks about the kernels of truth (always the same) that are always embedded within these New Age packages. That isn't the point. And if you don't get the point by now, I don't think you're ever going to get it, nor does it seem you want to.

vlinden,

You are so sharp and quick witted! I enjoy your posts and get a lot out of them. Thanks for all your support.

-jj


Aw, thanks jj. You should've hung out with me today, moping and suffering so pathetically over my ex (who was eaten by Landmark) no one even wanted to eat lunch with me. Oh, if only Byron Katie were right. If only I were a vase of cut flowers . . . .

Your responses to Ralpher were very good. This is a battle for the mind here, for sanity and reality. Stand your ground.

Anticult:
The way to deal with this is to simply look at BEHAVIOR not intent.
Is their behavioral ethical?
Does it hurt people? Is it dishonest?
Are they lying and maniputing people?
So we can forget intent as that is not knowable, and just focus on the visible behaviors.

The problem here is that we don't always know these answers right away, maybe not for many years. The lies and manipulations can be hidden, and the hurt can be subtle and deep, especially when you're playing with people's sense of reality and self.

As I've mentioned in other posts, I partook of a fair amount of psychedelics in my wild youth. And I had some of the most profound and "awakening" experiences imaginable. I also experienced profound psychological destabilization that took me about a year to recover from.

Would I recommend LSD to anyone today? No. It's too risky. The dangers are too great. There is NOTHING worse than losing your sense of reality. I cannot overstate this. It is truly hell. Anything that threatens your core ego identification, your sense of self, must be avoided, even if you are depressed. As long as you still feel you know who "you" are -- you're good, trust me! And you can find ways of managing the more difficult aspects of life, and gathering wisdom.

We have to be gentle with ourselves. Sometimes radical programs can be amazing, but in the end I think the same results can be found through gentle means.

When I was part of the "hippy" scene, we did a lot of drugs, chanted, fasted, spent hours dancing to tribal rhythms, all of this very mind-altering stuff. The goal was to shake ourselves loose of anything that wasn't "natural." But without question -- to really walk the walk -- we also had to change our lives. We didn't finish school, we didn't hold regular jobs, we didn't live in cities, we tried to create "alternative" communities, growing our own food, living off the grid, riding bikes, eating vegan, doing no harm, etc. Because we felt it wasn't very easy to try living an "enlightened" life within an "unenlightened" culture.

There is a lot of good within this reality, but it is not for most people, and it wasn't even working for most of the hippies! There has always been so much hypocrisy within that scene, and there still is. More than one "trust-fund hippy" is riding around in an SUV out there with "Love Mother Earth" on their bumper sticker.

There are a few people who really walk the walk, some old-school types who live very simple, quiet lives, try not to leave much of a footprint on the earth, stay conscious of their words, actions and choices, etc. If they're for real, they live it and they know it's not for everyone. It's a hard road, actually. These people are not forming cults or starting New Age empires.

From my understanding of ancient wisdom paths, real teachers do not accept students who are not 100% serious. Usually they test them severely before beginning any kind of instruction. For Ralpher to say you can go to Byron Katie's school and not have to do all of what she instructs makes me wonder again what any of her "work" is worth. And real teachers don't usually believe that true enlightenment is for the masses. It's for people who want to devote themselves to a very austere, arduous path, a dangerous path. For instance, Kundalini energy, that is sometimes released through meditation and other mind altering practices, can be deadly dangerous. It can make you terribly sick or even psychotic if not properly channeled. Finding a real teacher who can guide you along these wisdom paths is a tremendous blessing, if that's what you're really seeking. But if you're just seeking a way to stop feeling bad about yourself, or to get a better, more exciting life, you're not really on a true wisdom path after all.

I don't mean to sound like I know everything, I'm just trying to clarify my thoughts on this, and I think we have to be clear about these things so we can understand what people are offering us in the way of self-help or salvation.

by the way, I just want to make clear, that I am in no way criticizing people for getting sucked into the Byron Katie vortex. That is the exact point I am making, that BK and her Crew are VERY CRAFTY people. They are running all of these covert techniques on people.
And of course they target people who are good decent folks. So people get victimized by groups like the BK organization, and its not their fault. They are very subtle and tricky with all of it.
We can all get duped, one way or another.

I am just saying we can use basic blunt common sense to deal with the most blatant part of it. That can help.

For example, Byron Katie has designed a perfect system for her sales-cycle.
1) She tells people if they do what she says and take her courses, they will reach Happiness.
2) But doing exactly what she says will literally make you MISERABLE.
3) return to step 1, over and over, and become dependent on Byron Katie.

People who are depressed or anxious should seek good treatment from a licensed professional, and stay as FAR AWAY as possible from Byron Katie, and people like her. They will hurt you.
That is why her website is full of legal disclaimers, as after she hurts you, you will find it difficult to do anything about it.

Could someone please post the text of her legal disclaimers she forces you to sign before you take her courses and School?
Just post the text in these Byron Katie threads, so we can have a look at it.

Hi vlinden, this is about the post above.

I agree this stuff can be very complex and subtle.
But on the other hand, by using basic techniques like the ones from Carl Sagan, we can cut through the BS pretty damn quick.

CARL SAGAN'S BALONEY DETECTION KIT
[users.tpg.com.au]

Carl Sagan gives the metaphor of buying a used car. Now, do you BELIEVE what the salesman is telling you on the used car lot, when there is a No Refund policy?
Nope, you bring a mechanic!
Same thing with everything else!

I have found that through education in critical thinking, we can cut through the crap in minutes.
Now, folks just need to not get duped by these Gurus that Critical Thinking = Evil.
:-)
They try to get you to disarm your mind, that is their job #1.

Not to go off-topic, but as far as Kundalini, there are ways to TEST that too.
Does it even exist? Or is it a metaphor for human processes gone haywire?
Does Kundalini produce supernatural powers?
(lots of fun links here)
[skepdic.com]

Of course, I see no evidence it even exists, other than a metaphor.
Every Guru claims to have it.
Years ago I read the book on Kundalini Powers by Sri Chinmoy.
[www.culteducation.com]
It was all a fraud to make people believe they are Godmen, and thus follow them.

So we can apply the same Used-Car common sense test to all of this.

Godman says.."I have Kundalini Powers to levitate".
We says..."yeah, prove it, lets see the objective evidence by neutral 3rd parties"...
Godman says... "uh...next victim please!"

vlinden,

According to Ralpher, you won't have any problems if you just don't do what Byron Katie tells you to do. WELL WHY THE HELL GO TO HER SCHOOL THEN RALPHER???? Did you do anything she asked? Or were you like a high school kid not going to class but just hanging out cause that's where all your friends are?

That is hilarious... and makes so much sense to me.

I'm sorry that you've had such a rough morning. I can only imagine what losing your ex to something like that must be like... awful. Ugh.

Thank you for sharing all of this about your history. I'm in awe, really. You're amazing to come through all of that with so much wisdom, insight, and common sense. And, I'd never looked at it like that before. Really makes me think, and I need that.

You and Anticult... I want to hug you both. I've spent months trying to sort this all out by myself, reading books and articles, and writing to piece it altogether... but your posts here have helped me in ways I can't explain right now.

Even ralpher has helped... helped me see what I might have been like if I hadn't gotten out, and helped me realize that I'm actually doing all right. He didn't even participate fully... and he sounds just like everyone else whose been through the School.

The Work is some powerful mind-bending stuff...

Anticult, I certainly didn't take any offense to anything here. I realize fully that I went in skeptical, stayed skeptical, knew all along that something was wrong... and STILL had a pretty good brainwashing. I understand that you're not saying something is wrong with me, but with BK and her entourage. Keep talking, please. I'm going to be checking this message board every chance I get.

-jj

by the way, what are prices for this School, and her other seminars?
It seems to be listed at about $5,000 for...

April 4 - 13, 2008 The School for The Work Los Angeles.

Plus of course, they hit people up for possibly thousands more in sales of DVD's and other materials, they probably have "coaching contracts" and everything else under the sun.
Am I right? Are my Psychic Mind Powers still working?
;-)

Dear lord, 10 days of Indoctrination Mind-Control with Byron Katie, and it costs you at least $500 a day. That is utterly brutal and lets face it, its evil to do that to people.

Lets do the math.
300 people x $5000.00 = $1.5 million dollars.

Yes that's right. $1.5 million dollars goes right into her pocket for a weeks Work. They could easily cover the room rental with product sales alone.

And look at how sweet and spiritual the Byron Katie CANCELLATION POLICY is....aw...they are sooo spiritual and wondeful people....NOT!!!!

NO REFUNDS OR GUARANTEES.
Not even of your $20,000 for the Turnaround House.

Notice how the "STAFF" of the "school" have to "PAY"????
So you have to PAY Byron Katie to be on her "Staff"?
Folks, that probably is not even legal, to do that. You can't call them STAFF and CHARGE them to work. That could be illegal???
Only in Byron Katies world does staff PAY to work on The Work. Its like Alice in Wonderland.

Pay To Work in The Work School.

Work Makes You Free (Auschwitz slogan)

What a bunch of Scam Artists...unreal. Can it get any worse?

__________________________________________________
Cancellation Policies

The Cleanse and Weekend Intensives
All cancellations must be submitted in writing. If your cancellation is received nine (9) days in advance of the Cleanse or Weekend Intensive, your tuition will be refunded less a $100 processing fee. If you do not send advance written notice of your cancellation, if you do not show up, or if you leave the Cleanse or Weekend Intensive early, your payment is non-refundable and non-transferable.

The School - Participants
All cancellations must be submitted in writing. If your cancellation is received nine (9) or more days in advance of the School, your tuition and room and board costs will be refunded less a $600 non-refundable deposit. If you cancel eight (8) days or less in advance of the School, your tuition will be refunded less room and board costs we must pay the hotel and less a $600 non-refundable deposit. If you do not send advance written notice of your cancellation, if you do not show up, or if you leave The School early, your payment is non-refundable and non-transferable.

The School - Staff
All cancellations must be submitted in writing. If your cancellation is received nine (9) or more days in advance of the School, your tuition and room and board will be refunded less a $100 non-refundable deposit. If you cancel eight (8) days or less in advance of the School, your tuition will be refunded less room and board costs we must pay the hotel and less a $100 non-refundable deposit. If you do not send advance written notice of your cancellation, if you do not show up, or you leave the School early, your payment is non-refundable and non-transferable.

Turnaround House
All cancellations must be submitted in writing. Cancellations made prior to the 30-day period before the start date of the program will be refunded the amount paid less the non-refundable $2,000 deposit. Should you cancel your reservation within the 30-day period, your $18,000 balance will be refunded in full only if we can fill your space. If you do not send advance written notice of your cancellation, if you do not show up, or you leave Turnaround House early, your payment is non-refundable and non-transferable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2008 07:20AM by The Anticult.