vlinden - I think this stuff is fascinating too. And horrifying, because, as you've observed, its reach is far, wide and deep. I run like hell when I sense it anywhere near me. I attempted therapy a couple times after the lgat and when the therapists endorsed crap like the "Secret", I wondered, "is there anywhere or anyone that isn't contaminated with this sh*t?". I quit those therapists and am now very skeptical about therapists. Too much new-age has infiltrated everywhere, therapy included. Hell, therapists seem basically clueless about lgats, and how many have themselves taken the "courses", then endorse them on the lgat webpage, etc.? Your "screaming and raging, whining and moping" are full of great insight and wisdom and I gain a lot reading your posts.

Thanks, Skeptic.

I know what you mean, it's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers, or some Twilight Zone episode. At this point anyone I date, or any roommate I might have, or . . . shit, I don't care, even if someone is about to change my spark plugs, I think I'm going to have to ask up front if they're affiliated with any LGAT or guru . . . it's everywhere . . .

Makes you realize that the safest route is to suck it up and live your life, stand alone, learn what you can, be the best person you can be, and look for other people who are doing the same.

We should all form the anti-cult. It will be a cult, but we'll never meet, and the only rule will be to think for yourself. We'll each be our own gurus. Once a year we'll log onto the Internet and compare notes and drink a beer and toast each other -- to SANITY!!

First, I want to tell you that finding your message here was a real blessing. I've been searching the internet off and on for months hoping to find something about Byron Katie and The Work relating to recovery from cults. I think your concerns are perfectly legitimate. From the first time I read the first chapter in her book "Loving What Is", I knew something was horribly wrong, but my curiosity and the subtle persuasion of personal testimony led me on.

It's hard to say that she's a cult leader, considering how she got into this business. And, having met and talked with Katie personally, I want to say upfront that I believe she is very innocent/ignorant about what she is doing to people. I believe that she sincerely believes she is what she says she is, and that's probably what makes her so convincing. At the same time, there is no doubt that she falls into the category of a guru, regardless of how adamant she is that she is not one... and a mass manipulator. The book "In Sheep's Clothing" offers a list of tactics that covert aggressors use to manipulate, distract, and deceive. The descriptions match Katie very well... she is the queen of diversion, evasion, and distraction. However, I believe that it is herself she is deceiving the most. I think she is still very mentally ill, and it's scary, because so many people are following her lead.

With many reservations, I attended her 9 day school. We were sworn to secrecy about the events that go on there so as not to "spoil it for others" who would attend in the future. I've written about my experiences there, for my own sanity, and while I will spare you the gory details, I will offer a small list of things that happen there.

1. A forced 36 hour fast.
2. An day long "outing" where we were left to beg for food among homeless people in the streets of Los Angeles. We were instructed not to take any ID, or anything with us but the clothes we had on.
3. A rich organic diet that sent many people's bodies into shock. Vomiting was a regular occurrence, and was offered as "evidence" of cleansing, and of how powerful The Work really is.
4. Long days with brief breaks for meals. (7 am to 11:00 pm most days.)
5. Long, intense confessional sessions.
6. Deep, excessive probing into one's past traumas. (She used violent Korn music to trigger our worst memories.)
7. No contact with family or the outside world. (We turned our cell phones into the staff.)
8. Not allowed to wear make-up, to exercise, or to eat outside of the diet given.
9. Eating meals and taking breaks in complete silence.
10. Going at least 2 full days as a "silent one", unallowed to talk with others.
11. Being invited to criticize Katie and The School, and those who did were silently, subtly shunned by the group and Katie.
12. Having every doubt and concern about what was going on at The School questioned and "turned around", until no one could trust their own perceptions anymore.

Although The Work is presented as for anyone of any religion, once I became a part of Katie's captive audience, it became very clear that was no so. Katie claims to have no beliefs, because she is "clear" and lives in "reality" or "heaven", her belief system is actually very strong, very distinct, and very anti-Christian. And, anyone whose belief system doesn't match hers is treated like the "unenlightened" sap who needs to keep questioning his/her thoughts until they can see things Katie's way.

I was surprised by the number of educated professionals at The School. Teachers, doctors, psychologists, social workers, counselors of all kinds. I was even more surprised how everyone seemed reduced to this "blissed out" state by the end, where they couldn't even hold an intelligent conversation anymore. It was scary, and sad.

And, most of them would fight to the death to defend Katie's validity and honor.

I kept in touch with several people after The School, and when I made the decision to throw out all of my materials and abandon the process altogether, I met a lot of resistance. That was about the time her new book came out "A Thousand Names for Joy." I bought it, again out of dire curiosity. I read through it one evening, and that was all it took for me to toss it out. Hearing her tell about watching a man having a stroke, and feeling no concern for his well being because she was "in love"... was crazy. Since when did apathy become love?

But, I think it was the passage where she said that she likes pretending to be human and called it her "disguise" that really put the whole thing over the top. Apathy I could probably handle... but inhumanness is going too far.

I can't even express the disturbing way I've felt watching all of these people (there were about 300 at The School) throwing away a normal, healthy range of emotions for "bliss." And, I find it interesting that none of them have ever actually become like Katie. I guess psychosis is pretty hard to self-induce... ?

After those 9 days being constantly bombarded with questions about everything I think, believe, and perceive... I definitely noticed a difference in me. I still struggle to hang onto my thoughts and judgments without automatically turning everything around on myself. I mean, if someone slapped me in the face, my mind would probably automatically flip it around to someone make it either my fault, or to convince me that it was somehow for my benefit.

For awhile, I really struggled with what I observed about Katie... but no matter how many times I turn it around, I can honestly that I've never done what Katie is doing. It's bad.

The one thing good that came out of it, was that I learned about cults and cult mind control. I've read every book I can get my hands on. And, I've learned what it was that made me vulnerable to The Work. Also, I've gained a lot of knowledge that hopefully will protect me from the next snake-oil peddler that comes along.

Anyway, thank you for posting. I really needed to hear another person's perspective to help validate my own... I can trust my thoughts about Katie and The Work, after all. Imagine that! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

jj52,

Thank *you* for your post! Wow! I didn't know Katie has a school! It sounds like a true lgat. I wouldn't call her talks or books lgats in themselves, even though the perspective and "thinking" she teaches is NUTTY and out of touch with reality like lgats, because, as vlinden has pointed out, the subject/audience/reader isn't isolated and the environment manipulated for the purpose of breaking you down. Well, her *school* more than qualifies for lgat!

I was "treated" (for my birthday) to a talk of Katie's by my lgat-reformed sister and the friend that recruited us all, at the time I was unraveling from my six years in the lgat. My sister and friend thought Katie's TWISTED/turn-around mindgames might help me! But by then, I was starting to see something wrong with the whole approach, and I had less than ZERO interest in nutty Katie. Like you, I knew something was really wrong with her.

I really like how you've described and identified the sheer insanity of what she teaches. Damn, she is f*cking scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again for your post,
skeptic

jj52:

Thank you for posting all of this. It's very important. This board is, in my opinion, one of the most important resources on the web, for all the reasons you've stated. But it needs ever more input from people who have direct experience, like you. Many people here have sat on the sidelines helplessly watching someone we love get sucked into a cult or LGAT.

Check out the thread on Byron Katie on the forum "Cults and New Religions." I've been posting on that and having a dialogue with a Byron Katie supporter. It would be great if you could cut and paste what you wrote here into that thread as well.

The experience you describe is very much like an LGAT, and also extremely cultish, obviously Katie is heading straight into that realm. People do need to be warned.

Thanks again

VL

Katie not only has a school, she just launched a 28 day residency program called "The Turnaround House", where people pay $20,000 a pop to have their thoughts questioned. It's supposed to be akin to a rehab. Oh man. Can you imagine someone addicted to drugs going there to get clean? Whoo...

I think her books are the hook, line, and sinker. They seem innocent enough... very carefully constructed, and of course, they tell you that it's just 4 questions! Nothing to be afraid of... 4 teensy weensy little questions. You don't find out what else is in store for you at The School until you get there. That is very purposeful, I'm sure.

I attended an event she held once after The School, just before Christmas. 800 people showed up. We were all instructed to think of a least one person we could share The Work with, and to give them a copy of the book for Christmas. Katie said that her goal to was ensure that everyone in the world has at least heard of her and The Work. During The School, Katie personally selected people who she thought were in a position to pass The Work along to the most people and "fast-tracked" them... meaning she gave them tons of extra Work to do. Overload!

She claims that she has no motives, and doesn't want to be a guru. But after sitting at her feet for 9 straight days, it became very clear to me that this woman believes she has the answer to world peace and some strange type of salvation. She says things like "Thank you for doing your Work. I'm in a hurry. I want to be nothing." Translated... the idea is that everyone in the world did The Work and became "clear" like Katie, then the world would end, and we could all go back to being that giant peaceful nothingness in the sky (of which we are all just little slices.) So, when someone does their Work, she sees that as helping her get back to her nothingness.

There is an exercise at The School that is supposed to bring you to the awareness that when you look into someone else's eyes, all you are really seeing is yourself, because supposedly, we are all just little parts of one great divine organism of nothingness. So, if someone rapes you, it was really just you doing it to yourself. If someone abuses you, then you did that to yourself, to help wake yourself up to the "reality" of your being. And "The Work" is the "only way to God"... the only thing that will return us all to our source... according to Katie.

Of course, she doesn't come right out and tell you that, but she certainly does enough preaching and teaching, and leading to help people come to that conclusion. Being familiar with "Conversations with God" and other New Agey belief systems, I knew what she was getting at, but I just couldn't buy it. I sat there staring into this other womans eyes... being told to see the god in her that was in me... and all I could see was a blissed out stranger sitting in front of me. She didn't even resemble myself-- who was getting frustrated and bored with the exercise. But... wow... were people really tripped out on that one! They all said it was amazing... I just kept my mouth shut.

This man looked at me before the exericse began and said-- out of nowhere-- "I already know that we are just little pieces of God. I already know that." And I was too stunned to respond. But really, what do you say to something like that?

I wish I knew how to "report" her to all of the people out there who study cults... cause her following is getting really big, and it's international... and I think there ought to be a place for people to get the right information when they burn out or drop out, or whatever. Finding this message board was seriously exactly what I needed.

skeptic, thank you for your response. It really helps to feel like I have some support while trying to get through the Byron Katie School for The Work (also known as "The School of You") aftermath. Even though I was a skeptic the entire time, it all had an effect on me. I can't imagine what would have happened if I was totally buying it.

Anyway... thanks for listening. I needed to get some of that off my chest.

-jj

Here is the direct link to the other Byron Katie thread.

Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
[forum.culteducation.com]

and here is a search of this forum for Byron Katie to catch any other posts and threads.
[forum.culteducation.com]


Thanks for bringing this thread up, as I had not seen it. The weird thing about these groups, is that even though the Leader may appear to be a flake, someone very very sane and savvy is running the operation. When you look at all the legal disclaimers, legal paperwork for working in other countries, and all the other aspects of the business, marketing, manufacturing, sales, collections, that is a lot of very hard work.
Of course some of them might hire business managers to run the joint. But how many culty type LGAT leaders are going to trust someone else to manage their money, business, and affairs?
Very few, if any. They are generally control freaks, to say the least.

The impression from the outside is that Byron Katie is an image-maker and seller. Crazy?
Who knows. But one wonders, how can all these "crazy" culty type LGAT people all be self-made multimillionaires running global companies? Its incredibly difficult and complex to keep that going.
Like Abraham-Hicks, the husband is a MLM Amway-type entrepreneurial maniac.
Crazy like a fox, seems to come to mind.

Oh - one more thing. Jj52 thinks Katie sincerely believes what she teaches. For quite some time, after getting out of the lgat, I pondered whether the leader really believed the CRAP he peddled. After thinking about the way he lived his life (what I could see) and reading about sociopaths, I have come to the conclusion that he did NOT believe what he taught.

One way to tell if the leader believes their own "teachings" is to see if they live according to what they "teach". I wonder if Katie applies her absurd, ridiculous crap in her own REAL, HUMAN life.

It just occurred to me to wonder about the origin of the phrase "crazy like a fox".

It seems that even in ancient times, people noticed that certain people seemed to act "crazy" yet somehow came away with the chickens! So even in ancient times, people noticed that some folks pretended to be a bit "crazy" but were actually very crafty and smart, like a fox, who outwits you and steals your chicken out of your pot without your knowing it.

It just strikes one as strange that these so-called "crazy" New Agey Monks are all highly organized global entrepreneurs with millions in assets, many different companies, investments, lawyers.

I don't buy it, it doesn't make sense. One one level many of them do believe their own bullshit, but they also know that much of it is nonsense, but hey, it makes a lot of money.
But the biggest ones, with the biggest PR, they know its horseshit, they just don't care. Does anyone think that Werner Erhard does not know he conned people? He giggles himself to sleep thinking aobut how clever he thinks he is. They are sick puppies. Often sociopaths, or worse.

____________________
[www.phrases.org.uk]

What are the origins of the phrase: crazy like a fox?

CRAZY LIKE (OR AS) A FOX - ".seemingly foolish but in fact extremely cunning." From "Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang, Volume 1, A-G" by J.E. Lighter, Random House, New York, 1994. And from a second reference: Crazy (Dumb, Sly) Like a Fox. Smart and resourceful. The fox has been celebrated for centuries as a crafty animal. Its wiles were remarked in the 'Trinity College Homilies,' dating from about 1200. S. J. Perelman made one of the phrases (Crazy Like a Fox) the title of a book in 1944." From the "Dictionary of Cliches" by James Rogers (Ballantine Books, New York, 1985).

If you say, "He's crazy like a fox," you are saying that person is smart and can outwit other people. The image I get is that the actions of a fox appear a little crazy but he is in fact acting in a brilliant manner to save himself.