Anti-cult,

The author Stephen Mitchell is her husband. When I was trying to figure out what was happening to me, I contacted Katie with questions. Stephen responded... And let me tell you, his attempts to make me question myself got so ridiculous that I just quit responding to him at all.

He's the one who writes her books. There's a woman named Paula who appears to running everything, and I believe she is a paid employee of Byron Katie International.

I hadn't even realized that before. Thank you. This is all helping me piece things together, and I appreciate it deeply.

-jj

JJ52:

I also did Katie's 9 day school. Your comments on it are very much your own, and you're entitled to them. But I would suggest that you reconsider some of your accusations. For example, and I won't speak for every school, but mine was was recent, so I'm going to assume it represents something similar to the one you went to. And yet in mine:

Fasting took place, and there was also a restaurant in the hotel--a major hotel--and some people went there, and there was also a small shop that sold snacks, and some people went there. The fast, in other words, was voluntary. In fact, everything was voluntary. The program no longer served its own food, that's true, but there were the delicious smells of freshly cooked meat exactly ten feet from the large meeting room where the exercises took place. And plenty of room in the restaurant with no reservation required.

Participants were asked at the start to turn in cell phones, snacks, and so on. I kept my cell phone, and I noticed a lot of people did. In fact, I turned in nothing, because I found that aspect annoying. I called my fiance several times during the nine days. I did it in full view of many other participants. In other words, this aspect was also voluntary. Those who did turn in their phones were asked first to let their families know they could leave messages for them at the hotel desk. Several times during the 9 days, people were paged to the front desk to pick up such a message. And there were phones in the room, by the way.

We were asked to spend 4 hours in a city without speaking. However, we were told that if we wanted to speak, we could use several phrases, including asking for food (this was during the fast). Again, this was voluntary. A woman in the audience got upset at the idea, and Katie told her not to do the exercise--she invited everyone to do what they wanted to do. I noticed her and some others stayed behind at the hotel during this exercise.

We were asked to choose one day to be 'silent' and to turn around our name tags to indicate that to others who would then know we didn't want to be spoken to or to speak. This was our choice to do--no one could possibly keep track of what day we did it, or if we did it at all. I was mostly silent, except when a couple of interesting people had interesting conversations going on--and at that point, I spoke!

We were asked to eat silently, and usually people did that, but not always.

Everything that you are portraying as pressured is actually a structured and voluntary exercise in the school. That doesn't mean you didn't feel pressure--but where was that pressure coming from? When you were in High School, did you do everything that you felt pressure to do? Did you 'feel pressure' to wear your clothes in a certain way because others did? Most of us did--and we learned from that. Did you not learn to not feel pressured to do what others do? Do you have a hard time not buying a new car every two years? If so, this is an issue to work on. It's not a problem with what byron katie is doing.

There are those who take things to excess. I was recently corresponding with someone I met at the school, and she started writing in ways that seemed like Katie's words, not her own. Guess what? I stopped corresponding with her. It doesn't interest me to talk to people who can't think for themselves. I find it boring. As an adult, I have the ability to not communicate with people who bug me!

In RR's collection of readings, there is a fascinating essay by a renowned cult-expert--Margaret Singer. She writes on the subject of 'why the US marines are not a cult'. Let's see--an organization that forces people up at 3:00 in the morning to jog 5 miles, that intimidates, harrasses, and verbally abuses people--that trains them to kill--this is not a cult--and why not? She gives many reasons, but one of them is the most relevant: the participants know what they are getting themselves into before they get themselves into it.

It's probably playing into the hands of the anti-awareness movement people (just about everyone) on this blog to make this comparison, but the point is that although you don't know what the exercises are going to be before you sign up at Katie's school, once they are explained, you are informed, and there is absolutely nothing stopping you from wandering out of the large room, grabbing a hamburger with all the fixins, going up to your room, plopping on the bed, and chatting with your lover 3000 miles away while watching tv. Or better yet, calling for room service or a pizza to be delivered from your room phone. The fact that most people don't is a tribute to how much people are learning from these exercises. And to some people's inability to simply say 'no thanks'?

BTW, relating to another set of questions, Katie's husband is a renowned--and I mean highly renowned, widely acknowledged to be a brilliant scholar and translator of ancient texts. He's involved in her work as well, cleaning up the prose, I think. Most writers have editors. It's not a pathology to have a co-writer or editor. In fact, nothing of what I have heard complained about here requires a pathological explanation. I'm not sure why so many of you require it. It's a kind of conspiracy theory obsession. Every idea you don't like is a conspiracy.

Years ago, and I mean years--like twenty--I did the forum with Werner Erhard himself. It left a bad taste in my mouth. Not for me. But I feel no need to pathologize the experience as someone trying to abduct me, because that's not what happened. They invited me to sign up for another course, and I said no thanks.

Ah, now that's a comparison. You guys are like alien abduction victims. You are absolutely convinced there are UFOs circling, trying to bring you up into their ship. Question it.

-R

jj, thx for the great info.

Even the 'outsider' perspective of someone like myself can have value, as I have not been sucked into the vortex of Byron Katie mind-distortion. I can look at it with fresh eyes, and when you do, its clear they are just running the same type of business operation as are hundreds of others.

Its great you could see how hubby Stephen Mitchell is also an expert at destablizing people's sense of Self. That is the oldest trick in the book. They take advantage of good natured people, by getting them to turn their own minds against themselves. Very vicious, if you really step back and look at it.

You see, any decent person, or mental health provider would never do that. They would encourage each person to learn how to trust their own thinking, and how to reality test that against the outside world.
But they do the opposite.
They teach you to doubt all of your own thinking, and then only to trust them.
Why?
To gain influence and control over you and your wallet.

All I can say is when looking at this, Byron Katie & Co International know EXACTLY what they are doing to people. These kind of folks stay up late studying techniques of manipulation. They experiment on their own people to see what works.

What I would say to folks is to NEVER lose you basic sense of reality testing.
We don't have to get into fancy complex ideas. Just the basics is good enough...like...

"if it seems too good to be true, it probably isn't".
"If something doesn't make sense, it's probably not true."

Those folks are highly skilled at getting people to stop trusting their own mind, and to transfer that power over to Byron Katie.
The Work is an indoctrination system.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2008 10:42AM by The Anticult.

"One way to tell if the leader believes their own "teachings" is to see if they live according to what they "teach". I wonder if Katie applies her absurd, ridiculous crap in her own REAL, HUMAN life."

I really don't know what goes on inside of her head, but after you've talked with her for awhile, it seems very apparent that she is completely ignorant of anything at all outside of her own little fantasy world. Listening to her gave me the sense that she was seriously delusional, rather than just an actor or liar. According to the people closest to her-- family (before and after her "transformation"), she is like she is all day every for more than 20 years now.

She seems much more delusional than anything, in my perception. If she is intentionally deceiving people... then is possibly the most vile, covert, and wicked person I've ever encountered.

-jj



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2008 10:59AM by jj52.

It's interesting because I've had some experience with people who were sort of in an altered state of temporary grace, for lack of a better term. And it's kind of like being in the"zone" that athletes talk about, or the place people get to who can tight rope walk over a massive gorge -- someplace where they really are totally "at one" with the larger creation to the point where they literally cannot make a mistake. I've experienced a little bit of that myself.

So my point here is that when I watched the video of the Israeli interview, and there was SO MUCH ERROR in what Katie was saying, culminating in that patently ridiculous statement about how the vase full of flowers was not afraid of war (uh . . . yeah but . . . WTF woman, I'm not a vase of flowers now am I??), I could no longer believe that this woman had a shred of real knowledge in her, borne of anything legitimately hers -- any state of real grace, which would impart true transcendent knowledge.

She might be delusional and she might have read a lot of self-help books, and clearly she's imitating a lot of traditional LGAT structure and techniques in her "school." But enlightened? Hell no.

Hey, has anybody ever applied her 4 Questions to Byron Katie and the Work itself? IS IT TRUE??? How about reversing: Byron Katie is an enlightened guru = Byron Katie is a spiritual fraud.

Hmm . . . I think I'm starting to "get it"!!

whoops, my quote above should say....

"if it seems too good to be true, it probably is". (not isn't!)

------------

its true we can never really know if they really believe their own lies.
Of course its always possible they are in their own little delusional world, and someone else is running the business, like a Svengali behind the scenes.
Maybe Stephen Mitchell is running the operation?
But clearly, someone sane and ruthless is running the show.
And someone is doing all of the LGAT tech on people self-consciously. That is not so easy to do.

On the other hand, sometimes people have a strange set of talents.

I know a woman who if you met her, you would think you are talking with Mother Theresa, every second word is about Jesus and God, prayer, Angels in the trees, etc. About 10x as intense as what you see on TV, just constant religious obsession.
this same person is one of the most savvy investors and real estate flippers you would ever know! She builtup several million in assets from nothing. She constantly lies with an absolute angelic face, and uses God to make people trust her.
She goes to church everyday, yet will lie to your face to get you to buy a property.

So human nature is very complex.
Some of these Guru's can be as nutty as a coconut, seem to really believe what they sell, yet at the same time be utterly ruthless businesspeople.
There was an interesting book about this called "People Of The Lie". So one can never really know.

The way to deal with this is to simply look at BEHAVIOR not intent.
Is their behavioral ethical?
Does it hurt people? Is it dishonest?
Are they lying and maniputing people?
So we can forget intent as that is not knowable, and just focus on the visible behaviors.

My vote goes for.... vile-covert-wicked.
Sadly, there are quite a few sociopaths running around out there.

Quote
The Anticult
Its great you could see how hubby Stephen Mitchell is also an expert at destablizing people's sense of Self. That is the oldest trick in the book. They take advantage of good natured people, by getting them to turn their own minds against themselves. Very vicious, if you really step back and look at it.

You see, any decent person, or mental health provider would never do that. They would encourage each person to learn how to trust their own thinking, and how to reality test that against the outside world.
But they do the opposite.
They teach you to doubt all of your own thinking, and then only to trust them.
Why?
To gain influence and control over you and your wallet.

All I can say is when looking at this, Byron Katie & Co International know EXACTLY what they are doing to people. These kind of folks stay up late studying techniques of manipulation. They experiment on their own people to see what works.

What I would say to folks is to NEVER lose you basic sense of reality testing.
We don't have to get into fancy complex ideas. Just the basics is good enough...like...

"if it seems too good to be true, it probably isn't".
"If something doesn't make sense, it's probably not true."

Those folks are highly skilled at getting people to stop trusting their own mind, and to transfer that power over to Byron Katie.
The Work is an indoctrination system.

Another excellent encapsulation of the business of mind control. Thanks Anticult!

Quote
vlinden
Hey, has anybody ever applied her 4 Questions to Byron Katie and the Work itself? IS IT TRUE??? How about reversing: Byron Katie is an enlightened guru = Byron Katie is a spiritual fraud.

Hmm . . . I think I'm starting to "get it"!!

OH, HAHAHAHA! LMAO! I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ralpher,

The more I hear from you, the more I wonder if you're not Byron Katie herself.

I don't think anyone on this board is anti-awareness. We're anti deception, anti mind-control, anti delusion.


Years ago, and I mean years--like twenty--I did the forum with Werner Erhard himself. It left a bad taste in my mouth. Not for me. But I feel no need to pathologize the experience as someone trying to abduct me, because that's not what happened. They invited me to sign up for another course, and I said no thanks.

Ah, now that's a comparison. You guys are like alien abduction victims. You are absolutely convinced there are UFOs circling, trying to bring you up into their ship. Question it.

I'm wondering, Ralpher -- you did the Forum twenty years ago, now you're doing Byron Katie. Was there more New Age seeking in between? What are you looking for in all of this? Why do you keep spending your money on this stuff? Do you really think there's something new you can find? Are you just looking to hang with other people like you?

There are not UFOs, just a lot of scams out there. I think this board is here to help people make informed decisions before they part with their dollars for bottled enlightenment.

Vlinden, It's a noble effort you are seeming like you are saying you are doing--to help educate people. That makes sense--that's what I'm about too--like consumer reports. But, consumer reports doesn't start making stuff up to bolster their case, they do research, and they give pros and cons, and they are responsible to the product itself, and they are balanced.

For JJ52 to say that there was forced fasting, forced removal of communication devices, and so on, is just simply a fabrication. It doesn't match what happened, and so to that extent, it's useless as a consumer report--worse than useless.