Quote
bigboyx5
That was a very detailed and well written post, thank you for taking the time to avoid the knee jerk reaction. Since the men were ordered to take the "treatment" not an educational weekend, and you know them personally, could you provide some concrete details. I think a man of integrity would step up and post the names of those involved. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't trial decisions public domain. like I said earlier stating "I know" without proof is worthless.

I'm sensing a parsing of my words, so let's back up a bit. My original statement was not meant to be a legalistic technically exact statement as if I was on trial. I talked to one man late last night (who was at the trial because the judge told him he was going to do this) and the process was as I stated in a second or third blog. It was a choice IN THAT SPECIFIC CASE of taking an evening anger management class for 12 weeks, taking the Weekend or spending some time in jail. I have NO clue whether judges have complete latitude or not.

Nice try on the "man of integrity", you will get no names from me unless I have their permission. If you judge my opinion or statements are 'worthless' then ignore them and if that is the way a blog works or there is an agreement that I didn't read carefully then I will simply let this forum be.

Great point on the trial decisions being public, go to it!

Quote
bigboyx5
Who is doing the ongoing divorce study?

We actually advertised for a part time research guy with some pay (it was all volunteer before) and a University researcher type guy was chosen. Check the website to see if his name is public. I really don't know.

Quote
bigboyx5
I'd like to hear some more about the Cree who have attended, since I have a few "niichii' in the first nations, specifically what they thought of the symbolism etc.

One major group from a place called Hobeema Alberta (Central Alberta)and another man who is published and is from southern Alberta, he is well known in that world for his writings and research at a University there. I was responsible for that connection, I was literally standing and taking in a First Nations Festival in downtown Edmonton back in 1994 and I happened to notice a man who was talking to reporters. Later I talked to him and we became friends. He was VERY intrigued at the notion of a 'male initiation' since his people had lost their rites many years ago. He went and 300 men followed over 10 years. That man is now our International Vice Chair.

Honestly the results have been spotty with the Cree nation, there is a core of men who have made a big difference but a lot of the men who took the training (the band paid the full fee) didn't get much out of it.

Flip side was the interesting connection between the two worlds. I was in a coma in 1997 with a viral form of meningitis and some of the Cree leaders came to my bed twice and did a ritual healing dance around my bed. My daughter recounted that she wasn't surprised but my mother who had flown in from the east was freaked out. She knew I was involved in men's work but had no idea it was like that.

At some level I think that reaction is what causes most of the difficulty with MKP. Imagine if the Cree wrote up a 'protocol' for the healing dance and it talked about 'calling in spirits' or something like that. Christians like me might freak and be offended. Instead I choose to try to build bridges with other people of faith and I don't expect them to change, I just try to understand and find common ground.

I only have a few minutes but Ginah (sp?) had a piece about how we deal with women and found some words that said something like "women don't understand men's ritual". Sorry Ginah, I don't know how to go to that post without losing this one.

First, I have three versions on our protocols and those words do not appear in any of them. However, I will admit a kernal of truth and that's probably how someone rewrote what was originally written.

The more correct way to say it is some women don't understand the male psyche very well, instead they understand what they like and don't like, but not the deep running needs for some of the 'weird' ways we do what we do. A branch of feminism is not very male friendly and they have demonized the male need for roughhousing , for reverence of a different variety, for even initiation which has 1000's of years of history AND a modern history of abuse like in some fraternities.

I have met literally HUNDREDS of women over the years who DON'T want to know and admit to their own private rituals. And I have met women who are almost psychotic wanting to know every detail, every word.

For those on this list who know what I'm talking about, these words are more than enough. For those of you on this list who are offended by this, no amount of words or studies will suffice.

I pray we find ways to build bridges and to understand. Also, the work against cults is vital and important, keep it up even if I think you're off base on MKP! :(

Keep well all
GFTR99

PS I'm getting more familiar with this format called blogging, hope it's more readable now

I tried to answer this but the post has disappeared. And just when I thought I was starting to understand blogging…
:?
GFTR99

Quote
bigboyx5
That was a very detailed and well written post, thank you for taking the time to avoid the knee jerk reaction. Since the men were ordered to take the "treatment" not an educational weekend, and you know them personally, could you provide some concrete details. I think a man of integrity would step up and post the names of those involved. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't trial decisions public domain. like I said earlier stating "I know" without proof is worthless.

Who is doing the ongoing divorce study? I'd like to hear some more about the Cree who have attended, since I have a few "niichii' in the first nations, specifically what they thought of the symbolism etc.

gftr99:

Be careful to avoid flaming, i.e. posting insults here such as "take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth."

Remember the rules you agreed to.

Frankly, anyone interested in seeing how manipulative MKP is need only read the manual notes excerpted from the beginning of this thread.

MKP is mass marathon training or what is commonly called an LGAT (large group awareness training). And much like other LGATs such as Landmark Education, Lifespring and EST, MKP has the same problems and pitfalls.

Rather than attempting to blame participants and/or their families, circumstances etc. it is important to recognize the inherent problems within the structure and dynamics of LGATs.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This research paper by a clinical psychologist is helpful in identifying the underlying problems many LGATs frequently seem to have in common.

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

This paper by a noted sociologist details the process of coercive persuasions, which many LGATs often employ.

GFTR99, My misuse of the MKP's "Men of Integrity" phrase was out of line, and I sincerely apoligize for it, it's been used on me by a member of my family lately, and I was being snotty. But my compliment on the writing was genuine. I personally would not dismiss anyone's opinions, but in my field, I need to focus solely on hard facts and risk assessments, a view I often forget others may not share. I know of some who seem genuinely better for their time in the group, which is why I'm so serious about the facts.

The reserve is spelled Hobbema, it's in central Alberta and is composed of four separate bands. The Louis Bull, the Samson, the Ermineskin and the Montana bands, and the town is less than 10 minutes from my front door. The bands recieve substantial royalties, but as is often the case the money is mishandled by all levels. There is a major drug and alcohol problem and the elders are trying their damnedest to put an end to it. If your Vice Chair is from here, I may have misspoke. What is his name if I may ask? The people I know of mostly speak negatively about the use of their sacred symbols in this setting, I have to make a point to ask more of them.

As for the "treatment" aspect, I was simply pointing out that MKP states the weekend is an educational one and not therapy of any kind. In fact, the WWI states "The program is not intended to be a substitute for therapy, but rather a compliment to it" I was simply seeking clarification as to how a judge can tell make a criminal avoid any real therapy by taking an educational course. Since trial decisions are public domain, I was hoping you could save both sides alot of searching by providing the names or at least district and times.

There are no mentions of any studies on the MKP website, nor even any professional credentials listed, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If they are out there, why won't they come forward?

Also, I met with my therapist today and he pointed out the amount of time I have been obsessing on this group is becoming unhealthy, so I have made a promise to him and my wife to back off of it for a while. I don't know if I'll return, but I would like to thank everyone on both sides of the discusssion for your insights, views and understanding. I was here a short time, but benfitted immensely.

Quote
rrmoderator
gftr99:

Be careful to avoid flaming, i.e. posting insults here such as "take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth."

Rick

I was answering a man's question as to what AA quips could be considered abusive or rude

GFTR99

Cool and thanks for acknowledging the jabs. By the way, was it you who asked about examples of abusive language in AA? I answered someone and now I can't find that question and the moderator thought I was flaming someone. Easy to have a misunderstanding, so thanks.

You must be from Wetaskiwin or close by anyway. There are a number of ranchers and oilmen, older than an average New Warrior, solid good men, long married etc from your area, Red Deer, Olds, Blackfalds (sp?). Lots of powerful women as well.

Since John is our IVC, I'm sure it's OK to use his name, John Crier. He’s done so much at the college trying to help with the problems you mentioned. They have spent so much trying to counter all the effects of so many issues for so long. John's family is one of the exceptions, strong, great values, good kids.

You seem to favor professional therapists, there are so many in your area who are New Warriors... maybe as many as 15. I hope that you'll read this and there is some way for us to at least share on email. I know that if you meet some of these men, good solid men of standing in Alberta, at the very least you will soften on the notion that we brainwash anyone.

Yes, the Weekend is tough. Yes, some men get very offended when they first arrive and they leave. Military men don't. They get it. I was a professional athlete, I got it. Doctors who get a professional version of high pressure get it. It's definitely not a red carpet workshop, no doubt about it. This secrecy concern is overblown, we simply want men to be a little shocked and either fearful or angry right away so we can teach some very basic principles which all of us should live by but often don't. Regular classrooms just don't cut it!

If men got a detailed description, the element of surprise is lost and some men are incredible at holding up armor if they know what's coming. And obviously some men do some odd stuff like writing up protocols that are not what we use on the Weekend. That's amazing to me and frankly I have no clue why. Nevertheless I have some men looking at what could have happened.

Anyway, I wish you well, hopefully you can find a way to talk off list on email and you, your wife and your therapist can feel a little better about us.

Some final history, I left the area in 2000, I'd been seeking to leave Canada for quite a few years, I'm not a big fan of socialism. Talk about a cult! :shock: My kids are in nursing and dental school at the U of A. Both got undergrad degrees down here but they have to qualify themselves to move here, they were too old by the time I became a US citizen.

Good Luck and keep well
GFTR99

I was sent to a MKP project weekend by a former boss, it seemed obvious they were up to mind programing with the whole "boot camp" style way they tried to break you down. I was too much of my own being and they didn't like that. I had told them I was close to hypo-glycemic(spl?) but they thought I just didn't want to be with out food for 2-3 days (duh) I got a migriane and was sent off to a hut while they did their thing. I went through some personal hell after that and have never regained my footing in the world. I think on the mental wounds they opened up then never addressed again. I tried to talk with them at several of their group meetings afterward and was brushed off. I think their psycological knowledge is severely lacking and they don't know how to deal with people who don't fit the norm. I am still struggling to this day.
I think they are negligent and don't want to listen to anything about it.

Jim,
In my experience men who believe they are their own beings do not get sent anywhere. Unless they are physically restrained, they choose to go. They are accountable to themselves for every action they make. In my judgment you are giving up control of yourself to others here. You are playing the victim.

“The hardest thing in the world is to assume the mood of a warrior. It is of no use to be sad and complain and feel justified in doing so, believing that someone is always doing something to us. Nobody is doing anything to anybody, much less to a warrior.”
~ Carlos Castaneda

Quote
jimd
I was sent to a MKP project weekend by a former boss, it seemed obvious they were up to mind programing with the whole "boot camp" style way they tried to break you down. I was too much of my own being and they didn't like that. I had told them I was close to hypo-glycemic(spl?) but they thought I just didn't want to be with out food for 2-3 days (duh) I got a migriane and was sent off to a hut while they did their thing. I went through some personal hell after that and have never regained my footing in the world. I think on the mental wounds they opened up then never addressed again. I tried to talk with them at several of their group meetings afterward and was brushed off. I think their psycological knowledge is severely lacking and they don't know how to deal with people who don't fit the norm. I am still struggling to this day.
I think they are negligent and don't want to listen to anything about it.

The practices you describe are NOT MKP protocol and I agree it constitutes abuse. The man who lead the sweat will be held accountable for his actions if you take action.

Quote
what2do
This is very eyeopening. Do you have more, or is that all you have been able to obtain. Something occurred to my husband in the last sweat hut they attended before the "Feast".

I do not know if this is normal or not. It took him several weeks to reveal this to me.

If this is not appropriate, the moderators can delete.

The sweat hut was one of the things my husband really liked. He said he felt very peaceful in there. They had done whatever they do, and it was coming to an end.

About 30 or so men are sitting in a circle in this candlelit sweat hut. The leader told them after they left, they could finally go to their feast. Now keep in mind, all of these men are naked. Then the leader said this.

"You may now reach over and grab your "brother's" d**k. If he does not want this, he may remove your hand."

My husband said he just froze. He could only see the men on each side of him, but to his knowledge no one did this. This upset him so bad he made a decision to not attend the I groups just now. He still has not attended, but that is mainly because of me.

Why would anyone say this? These men had gone almost 48 hours w/o sleep or food. They had a cup of trailmix three times a day. They had been brainwashed, starved, sleep deprived, had sensory overload, and were probably not in their right minds. What that man suggested was complete sexual abuse, in my opinion.

They had been taught to completely trust their "brothers". Had probably revealed more inner shame to these men, than they had ever revealed to their wives. And they took that trust and left it wide open to sexual abuse.

There is something very, very sick with this group.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with this statement. I realize it is very shocking.

MKP Warrior:

I don't know if blaming individuals and ignoring the inherent problems with the way MKP is run is a meaningful response.

Anyone interested in what's wrong with MKP can go to the beginning of this thread to see how manipulative and coercive it seems to be.

Note the manual excerpts and analysis that follows them.

Many of your comments come across as little more than "victim bashing" and apologies, that ignore the manual instructions and MKP's responsibilities.