Sorry, that should have said:

My husband and myself MAKE decisions in a loving partnership of marriage.

Margie:

Don't be concerned about duncacs. He is just reciting the standard stuff you can read through this thread repeatedly posted by MKP devotees.

They don't want to see or consider anything negative about the program and they constantly try to shift the blame on others.

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duncacs
I sort of question why I bother coming back to this site. A New Warrior friend and I were discussing this site recently and he followed it for a while then was "banned" because he simply couldn't see how these judgments about MKP hold water.

...Otherwise known as the loss or destruction of critical thinking skills. He "simply couldn't see" sounds like a form of blindness to me, and not something I'd seek out or pay money for. It's also characteristic of all cult members. That's why they stay in cults.

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If anyone gets this message you will see a recurring cycle in this thread:

Hurtgirl#1: Makes a post that she can't handle it that her boyfirend/lover/husband is making changes in his life and she blames MKP for the fact he is confronting things whith her that he hadn't handled before; and she feels she is losing control of his life.

Do you realize that ~confronting~ and ~handling~ are scientology "concepts?" Not the words themselves but the special way they are used and what they mean within the group. It is funny how many of these groups pinch off bits and pieces of scientology. I guess they take ~whatever they can use.~ And that last bit about "Hurtgirl" feeling she is "losing control of his life" is YOUR interpretation and your interpretation from a distorted MKP perspective no doubt.

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Hurthgirl#2: Commisserates and shares her pain of when her boyfriend/husband took control of his life -- all because of those nasty manipulative brainwashing MKP guys

Disgruntled Warrior: Chimes in with something about how he didn't like the weekend; or he had a falling out with some of the guys and felt "burned" -- discloses some of the processes out of context to try and make people feel sorry for him because he did something that was kind of "off the wall" and feels bad about it.

Non-Disgruntled Warrior: Calls the game for what it is -- essentailly a self pitying cycle

Hurtgirls & disgruntled warrior: Take anyone's disagreement with judgmetns against MKP as proof the Non-Disgruntled warrior is brainwashed and really needs help.

Non-Disgruntled Warror: Saying he's just honestly sharing what he sees.

If you knew anything about cults, you'd know there is no "honestly sharing" or "honestly seeing" from within. Cults twist and contaminate every perception and every attempt to communicate. That's their business. You may well have had defects, problems, shortcomings, and/or flaws that demanded treatment but, dollars to donuts, MKP, and all the other similar groups, substituted a far worse set than the ones you arrived with.

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New Hurtgirl comes in -- the cycle starts over.

Wherever you are in this cycle -- read this and know this is basically what happens here over and over again -- and it seems to fuel this pseudoauthority of certain pepole who like to deem themselves "experts" on problems that just don't really exist.

I have to judge it's a bit neurotic.

With that I'm out.

I suggest you take a look at the mountains of material written by ex and former cult members. Doesn't sound like you're ready but sooner or later the insults and injury will reach a critical mass and you'll find the information of those who've made the round trip helpful.


Ellen

For me, the worse is that MKP has managed to invade our family during the most overwehlming time we have ever had. It feels like a direct blow to my gut..like a sucker punch. I am having a hard time to ingest all of this MKP info, and deal with all of the other things going on in our family.

Eleana said it right when she said;
"Cults twist and contaminate every perception and every attempt to communicate. That's their business."

Contaminate they have!


I am wondering is it was like this for others? Were you or your husbands approached from a MKP "friend" when your families were going through a very hard time?

ginnah,
How are you doing? Are things going any better for you? I am still trying to get through this thread and read the Yahoo group too. It all becomes a lot to ingest. Please know that my heart goes out to you.

So I found this thread and was really surprised because a close friend of mine is involved with this group. He doesn't seem brainwashed or addled, nor does it seem like the group is exerting undue influence in his personal life. I discussed this idea of the MKP being a sort of cult with him and here is what we came up with....

The tone and style of each group is different because each group is comprised of different individuals. Some are more "hard core" than others and some focus more heavily on different aspects of the group format. He related that he had heard that some groups on the west coast were not anti-homosexual per se, but were focused on attempting to help men "re-align their sexuality to something that they are more comfortable with". Since my friend identifies as queer and is pretty strongly same-sex aligned, obviously his group is not focused in that direction.

The heavily ritualized aspects of the group and weekend formats are designed to reconnect men with a sense of "tribal community". I suppose that when one considers that Western society has basically lost most of its sense of tribe and community, it makes sense that some would feel attracted to a program like this. That being said, both my friend and I are fairly interested in theology, primitive religions, social anthropology and so forth, therefore none of the things mentioned seem all that weird to either of us when taken in the context of primitive traditions. I am sure that there are some who might view the activities as cult-like or strange, even creepy.

Also, when one takes into account the idea of "set and setting", much like with a hallucinogenic drug experience or vision quest-type experience, the mindset of each individual plays a large part in how the experience will be perceived and what effects it will have on the person's personality. My point here is that a person will find what they are looking for and if they need the group to be an excuse to distance themselves from some aspect of their personal life, then they will create a justification for that. It's not exactly emotionally honest, but it's human nature.

I'm a woman, therefore not personally experienced in this particular group, but this post is a result of several hours of conversation on this topic with my friend who was remarkably open about his experiences with the MKP.

fireopal:

Your post appears to indicate that you have not read all of this thread from the beginning.

There are very serious complaints about MKP posted here.

MKP is a mass marathon training or large group awareness training program. And such programs have a long history of problems and complaints.

Read the whole thread if you are seriously interested in gaining a better understanding of MKP.

Note the links, excerpts from the MKP manual and related research material cited.

Moderator:

I have read this thread in its entirety, in fact it took me the better part of 2 days. Not because I ama slow reader, rather because A) I was attempting to think critically about it and B) because life happens. :) I was merely making some observations about what I gleaned from my conversation with my friend when comparing it to what I have read in this thread.

My statement about set and setting still stands. I'm not saying that LGATs aren't dangerous. I am also not saying that lives have not been damaged by an individual's involvement in MKP. I [i:21b2cce932]am[/i:21b2cce932] saying that a person's experience with any kind of group of this nature is going to be affected by their pre-existing mindset. I would submit that the ritualistic elements found in the MKP act as a type of hypnotic induction, designed to disinhibit the participants. Some people are more susceptible to that kind of experience than others. (If you would like me to cite sources here, I will.)

I suppose the question of whether the MKP is intrinsically dangerous can be answered by looking at what kind of responses are wanted once the participants have been disinhibited. If it was to give money, or to separate oneself from family and friends, or to follow the teachings of a charismatic leader, then that would be cause for grave suspicion. However, the processes of the MKP seem to be derived from Jungian psychology (the idea of shadow aspects, archetypes, even an altered version of the Myers-Brigg personality index). Confronting unpleasant aspects of one's own personality can be dangerous, which is why most people choose to do so under the supervision of a trained counselor, psychologist, or psychiatrist.

That is the one thing with which I do take exception regarding the MKP. Most of the people that are involved in leading these group encounters are most likely not trained professionals, and therefore not trained to deal with any serious mental health issues and certainly not trained to provide therapeutic counseling. Before anyone gets mad, though, I am not implying that anyone is crazy or needs therapy. It is obvious that these encounters are designed to get the participants to release emotions that are bothering them on some level, which again should probably be done under the care of a professional.

fireopal:

Your observations reveal disturbing elements within MKP.

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the ritualistic elements found in the MKP act as a type of hypnotic induction, designed to disinhibit the participants.

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the processes of the MKP seem to be derived from Jungian psychology

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these encounters are designed to get the participants to release emotions that are bothering them on some level,

However, your conclusion that "a person's experience with any kind of group of this nature is going to be affected by their pre-existing mindset" still sounds like spin for MKP and "victim bashing."

Rather than address the issue of LGATs hurting people through their inherent design and dynamics, you prefer to blame a "pre-existing mindset" instead.

However, you have revealed that what groups like MKP essentially offer is a type of group therapy, but without the supervision of properly credentialed, trained and accountabile mental health professionals.

This is one reason that such programs has proven to be repeatedly problematic as demonstrated by the research of mental health professionals and continuing complaints of personal injuries.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Anyone considering MKP should carefully consider this research and read through from the beginning of this thread its manual excerpts, which expose a highly manipulative and coercive process.

Group therapy should be done "under the supervision of a trained counselor, psychologist, or psychiatrist."

The serious complaints about MKP as logged on this thread and the bad press, personal injuries and litigation regarding LGATs generally, deomstrate why they are such a bad idea.

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rrmoderator
However, your conclusion that "a person's experience with any kind of group of this nature is going to be affected by their pre-existing mindset" still sounds like spin for MKP and "victim bashing."

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not interested in assigning blame. I am expressing that it is my belief that you cannot evaluate any individual's experience without including the individual themselves. I would not "spin" for anyone - that implies deliberate obfuscation of facts. I also would not belittle anyone's emotional experiences with this or any other group. If they say it has hurt them or their family, then it has. I'm interested in discussion of the issue only, not in attacking anyone.

Having gone back and read up more on the actual methods used by LGATs, I'm even more convinced that many of them have their basis in group hypnotic induction. That, however, is OT... :D

One thing I would like to ask is this: is the basis in Jungian psychology disturbing because of the lack of professional supervision or because you take exception to Jung's theories and methodology?

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fireopal
I suppose the question of whether the MKP is intrinsically dangerous can be answered by looking at what kind of responses are wanted once the participants have been disinhibited. If it was to give money

Well, I have not posted in a long time, doing well with my family and things are far better.

I wanted to say in regards to fireopals above statement, every month my husband gets a letter from MKP requesting that we donate money to them. Large amounts of money as in exceeding a thousand dollar donation, though of course they would be greatful for any amount. We get these requests for donations every month without fail. The letter talks about how maybe you were helped and how you should help others.

This is happening even though my husband requested a very long time ago to be removed from the MKP listings. I guess this goes back to "once an MKP member, always an MKP member."

As well, maybe fireopal did not read the postings about the Houston group looking into members personal records to learn how much their homes were worth, so they would know how much money to hit a particular member up for. Along with their "money shadow" statements to get members to "do their work."

The money one is just one example of fireopals confusion.