Mankind project
Posted by:
NotOneOfThem
()
Date: February 28, 2007 01:52AM
I'd like to just edit my last post by making note that this was the correct format for the last portion of the post.
Me: Sadly, the questions raised by myself and others will continue until MKP decides to come clean about it's practices and stop proclaiming that a mystery is needed for the weekend to be effective. Many other healing/empowering methods are around, and they do not hide behind this veil. If you are able to help make this happen, by answering questions in clear, direct answers, perhaps, just perhaps the light of day will shine on MKP, and fewer of us will need to question the validity of it or it's methods.
This last portion of quote should have be as such, a quote. I have not figured out how to edit on this board as of yet.
Me: Sadly, the questions raised by myself and others will continue until MKP decides to come clean about it's practices and stop proclaiming that a mystery is needed for the weekend to be effective. Many other healing/empowering methods are around, and they do not hide behind this veil. If you are able to help make this happen, by answering questions in clear, direct answers, perhaps, just perhaps the light of day will shine on MKP, and fewer of us will need to question the validity of it or it's methods.
Quote
Joseph
PS feel free to buzz over any questions to me, I am not a leader with this work but I am willing to offer my opinion if it is of value to you.
PPS I hope my post is not too heavy, I just find it tough seeing collusion and criticism of something which has been so valuable to me.
This last portion of quote should have be as such, a quote. I have not figured out how to edit on this board as of yet.
Mankind project
Posted by:
NotOneOfThem
()
Date: February 28, 2007 04:04AM
Horse,
Thank you for visiting the board. I rise to your suggestion of a disussion of points raised by the celebrated Margaret Thaler Singer.
(please note that my quote sections are quotes from the reference linked to below.)
Lets work from
Mental Health Issues
Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties
Psychiatric Annals 20:4/April 1990
By Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D. and Richard Ofshe, Ph.D.
[www.culteducation.com]
and as reference to my own experince you can find a posting on this page:
[board.culteducation.com] which is part of an essay I have written about my experence of the NWTA weekend.
Quoting Ms. Singer:
At arrival to a NWTA weekend, one is removed of their name and given a number as a reference. This is used through out the weekend until the are given a new name, their Warrior name - supposedly based on their performace or disclosures over the course of the weekend. This could be viewed as a death/birth theme when added to the statement I heard of "your life will be very different, it can never be the same as it was" as stated by Mr. Kauth himself in his introduction to the weekend. (Please see my detailed essay of the weekend for context.)
Accusations were made about a variety of items brought with men on the weekend, such as a man who had Exacto blades in his luggage was accused of bringing a weapon because he did not trust men. Another was late (Perhaps not, his letter may have stated a later time or he was a delayed person as part of the plan for the weekend.. they needed to state a reason we were put in the dark basement holding area for the time we where. I'm only guessing here, the truth will not be told by MKP.) I was accused of having drugs (I had lip balm) Confessions were solicited during these interogation sessions that went late into the early morning of Saturday. Each person was intimitated by the questioner as to why they had each item, until they "confessed" in agreement with the staffer. They were then given a warm "Very good, that's clean." or "That's congrugent." etc.
During the weekend I went on, the late night questioning went on until at least 3:00 AM, and we reported for the weekend at 6:30. The NWTA Manual Summary (page 1 of this section of the forum) states that sleep deprivation is part of the plan.
(All time keeping devises are comfiscasted during the search.), identification items such as jewerly, wedding rings, crosses etc. And, illogical eating/sleeping cycles.
Removal of time pieces, sleep deprivation, were were told we could use the buckets as bathrooms only when permitted, food would be provided and we would be given enought and eat what we were given. see above.
-This criteria is met by the NWTA
- This criteria is met by NWTA
Staff members who were doing the interogation during the early stages of the weekend I attended relentless until there was a confession (See the Essay) and were only warmer when someone confessed, ("Very good, You may now sit down." the man said.) Once confessions were done, a break was permitted. During the follow up meetings, men who do not follow the 'warrior way' (my words) are called upon as being non-congruent, living in their shadow and so on.
- This criteria is met by NWTA
The training manual states that pledges are allowed little time alone to reflect upon what is taking place. To reflect would mean that the person would be compairing events taking place at the current time with events prior. MKP is a closed organization in that its training methods are secret so that one does not have awareness of what to expect upon
arrival. Its meetings are closed to all but those who have attended the weekend. See above
- This criteria is met by NWTA
MKP is a closed organization in that its training methods are secret, its meetings are closed to all but those who have attended the weekend. See above. Mr. Kauth presided over a cerimony at a wedding where I entertained a couple of years following my aborted weekend. He demanded that my partner and I leave the room (with our equipment left alone.) as we where "Not Warriors, and not permitted to be around for what was to take place. More secrets.
- This criteria is met by NWTA
Singer is pointing to the methodoligy of MKP where a person is accused of being in their shadow or not in congruency if they question the warrior way. Horse, have you ever directly questioned upper level people, or confronted Mr. Kauth on his disagreements on such items are the use of the essay written by Kauth. Or do you just go about making the changes without discussion? Do you feel you can confront anyone with that? Perhaps that no one has questioned your changes is a sign that the 'system' does not permit such questions.
My experience with folks who are part of MKP, or have been on this board tend to be in line with this statement. Minimizing statements from others such as "there was some shouting, but nothing I could not handle" etc, seem to me to be akin to saying that the system used is correct, and that perceptions are wrong. Also, MKP threatened suit against Mr. Ross for posting the detailed training manual. Evidence that the system is not only closed, but that there is a belief that the methods are so correct that no one should question them.
Reading the manual summary, other sites and descriptions I have found, plus my own experience of the weekend proves this portion of Ms. Singers observations to be applicable to MKP. One telling line taken directly from the manual is in regards to men being placed in
a darkend room for a period of hours. "So they can feel the [i:f80bb728f2]descent[/i:f80bb728f2]." (Emphasis mine). The weekend has a systematic apporach where a person is accused, removed of all identity; "What is your name?" he said, poking his finger into the name tag (With 38 on it) on my chest., removed of time and spacial refereneces by removal of timepieces and placement for an unknown amount of time in an enclosed space in darkness, removal of the person from that and placed into an enclosed space where they are publicly critized for their actions thus far the weekend (not following unknown rules.), disclosures are demanded and worked until admissions are given, rewards are then given with a break where mininal nourishment is provided, followed by a visualization, (Trance state work), followed by intense labor (moving a tree in darkness), followed by a return to the "Raft" and so on.
This is the boiling frog theory at it's best.
- This criteria is met by NWTA
My experience of the weekend to the point where I left was such that one is Kept off balance. (we did not know when someone would come get us from the darkened room.) See nametag reference above.
From Manual:
"I create my own [i:f80bb728f2]perception of reality.[/i:f80bb728f2]"
"outer reality exists as a reflection of my inner world."
[i:f80bb728f2]"Higher states of consciousness exist and reflect greater abilities to manifest my inner reality."[/i:f80bb728f2]
"[i:f80bb728f2]Higher states of consciousness embody[/i:f80bb728f2] a life of service, compassion and unconditional love."
...Ultimately the process may intentionally be designed to "snap you right out of that other world in a flash...Nohing makes sense here...only to feel."
As you may have read in commentary above, one person on this board is experiencing pressure from his Father In Law ([board.culteducation.com]) to go on a weekend. I am guessing that many of you here to defend MKP also feel it is your mission to change our minds and help us see some value to the group.
Perhaps to recruit. I'd ask you to honestly state that you do not point to the group as your solution to another man's trouble, whatever it may be.
I can't say more than this..
- I think this criteria is met by MKP/NWTA
The pledge is removed from their luggage, subjected to sleep deprivation which among other things causes emotional stress, there is guided image work using "Iron John" while hypnotic music is played and points are emphasized by staff members. My experience with "M" (See my essay) was that following it, he and others who I know who were part of MKP (At the time just called The New Warriors) was that they wanted to be called upon by their Warrior names, not their birth names. Just my experience.
Thank you for visiting the board. I rise to your suggestion of a disussion of points raised by the celebrated Margaret Thaler Singer.
(please note that my quote sections are quotes from the reference linked to below.)
Lets work from
Mental Health Issues
Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties
Psychiatric Annals 20:4/April 1990
By Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D. and Richard Ofshe, Ph.D.
[www.culteducation.com]
and as reference to my own experince you can find a posting on this page:
[board.culteducation.com] which is part of an essay I have written about my experence of the NWTA weekend.
Quoting Ms. Singer:
Quote
Second-generation programs induce changes in expressed behavior and attitudes much as the earlier versions did by manipulating psychological and social influence variables within a format that generally follows a symbolic death and rebirth theme....
At arrival to a NWTA weekend, one is removed of their name and given a number as a reference. This is used through out the weekend until the are given a new name, their Warrior name - supposedly based on their performace or disclosures over the course of the weekend. This could be viewed as a death/birth theme when added to the statement I heard of "your life will be very different, it can never be the same as it was" as stated by Mr. Kauth himself in his introduction to the weekend. (Please see my detailed essay of the weekend for context.)
Quote
Second-generation programs often include techniques similar to those found in first-generation programs, e.g., group pressure, modeling, accusations, and confessions....
Accusations were made about a variety of items brought with men on the weekend, such as a man who had Exacto blades in his luggage was accused of bringing a weapon because he did not trust men. Another was late (Perhaps not, his letter may have stated a later time or he was a delayed person as part of the plan for the weekend.. they needed to state a reason we were put in the dark basement holding area for the time we where. I'm only guessing here, the truth will not be told by MKP.) I was accused of having drugs (I had lip balm) Confessions were solicited during these interogation sessions that went late into the early morning of Saturday. Each person was intimitated by the questioner as to why they had each item, until they "confessed" in agreement with the staffer. They were then given a warm "Very good, that's clean." or "That's congrugent." etc.
Quote
Additional sophisticated techniques to destabilize a person's sense of self and to induce anxiety and emotional distress are also employed. Second-generation programs often incorporate technical advances in influence production, such as hypnosis to intensify recalled or imagined experiences, emotional flooding, sleep deprivation, stripping away of
various psychological defense mechanisms, and the induction of cognitive confusion. Second-generation programs are illustrated by certain cults, in therapeutic communities gone astray, and in some large-group awareness programs.
During the weekend I went on, the late night questioning went on until at least 3:00 AM, and we reported for the weekend at 6:30. The NWTA Manual Summary (page 1 of this section of the forum) states that sleep deprivation is part of the plan.
Quote
Congitive Confusion would be induced by the deprivation of a persons ability to relate time.
(All time keeping devises are comfiscasted during the search.), identification items such as jewerly, wedding rings, crosses etc. And, illogical eating/sleeping cycles.
Quote
Six conditions are simultaneously present in a thought reform program:
-obtaining substantial control over an individual's time and thought content, typically by gaining control over major elements of the person's social and physical environment,
Removal of time pieces, sleep deprivation, were were told we could use the buckets as bathrooms only when permitted, food would be provided and we would be given enought and eat what we were given. see above.
-This criteria is met by the NWTA
Pledges are manhandled, items removed from them, searched, intimitated, placed in a dark room for a period of time, cold showers on a particular time are mandated, the 'raft' is always surrounded by staff people, staffers are dressed in all black or military wear (until they undress), the person is seperated from their luggage during time in the raft, restroom arraingments are such that the persons ability to use them is restricted. ("You will take breaks when we permit it." I was told, and the manual does not state otherwise. )Pledges are seperated from medications and must request them. Pledges are told Dorm Style lodging is provided, but none is given.Quote
-systematically creating a sense of powerlessness in the person,
- This criteria is met by NWTA
Quote
-manipulating a system of rewards, punishment. and experiences in such a way as to promote new learning of an ideology or belief system advocated by management,
Staff members who were doing the interogation during the early stages of the weekend I attended relentless until there was a confession (See the Essay) and were only warmer when someone confessed, ("Very good, You may now sit down." the man said.) Once confessions were done, a break was permitted. During the follow up meetings, men who do not follow the 'warrior way' (my words) are called upon as being non-congruent, living in their shadow and so on.
- This criteria is met by NWTA
Quote
-manipulating a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences in such a way as to inhibit observable behavior that reflects the values and routines of life organization the individual displayed prior to contact with the group,
The training manual states that pledges are allowed little time alone to reflect upon what is taking place. To reflect would mean that the person would be compairing events taking place at the current time with events prior. MKP is a closed organization in that its training methods are secret so that one does not have awareness of what to expect upon
arrival. Its meetings are closed to all but those who have attended the weekend. See above
- This criteria is met by NWTA
Quote
-maintaining a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure in the organization and maintaining a non-informed state existing in the subject.
MKP is a closed organization in that its training methods are secret, its meetings are closed to all but those who have attended the weekend. See above. Mr. Kauth presided over a cerimony at a wedding where I entertained a couple of years following my aborted weekend. He demanded that my partner and I leave the room (with our equipment left alone.) as we where "Not Warriors, and not permitted to be around for what was to take place. More secrets.
- This criteria is met by NWTA
Quote
The last two conditions work because there is no effective way for the subject to influence the system and because the program moves along in such a way that the subject is unaware of being changed for a hidden organizational purpose. In a closed system of logic, criticism or
complaints are handled by showing the subject that he or she is defective, not the organization. ...
Singer is pointing to the methodoligy of MKP where a person is accused of being in their shadow or not in congruency if they question the warrior way. Horse, have you ever directly questioned upper level people, or confronted Mr. Kauth on his disagreements on such items are the use of the essay written by Kauth. Or do you just go about making the changes without discussion? Do you feel you can confront anyone with that? Perhaps that no one has questioned your changes is a sign that the 'system' does not permit such questions.
Quote
Observations may be turned around and argued to mean the opposite of what the critic intended. When a subject questions or doubts a tenet or rule, attention is called to factual information that suggests some internal contradiction within the belief system or a contradiction with what the subject has been told: the criticism or observation is turned
around and the subject made to feel he or she is wrong. In effect the subject is told, You are always wrong; the system is always right.
My experience with folks who are part of MKP, or have been on this board tend to be in line with this statement. Minimizing statements from others such as "there was some shouting, but nothing I could not handle" etc, seem to me to be akin to saying that the system used is correct, and that perceptions are wrong. Also, MKP threatened suit against Mr. Ross for posting the detailed training manual. Evidence that the system is not only closed, but that there is a belief that the methods are so correct that no one should question them.
Quote
...In addition, by keeping a subject in a non-informed state, he or she functions in an environment to which he or she is forced to adapt in a series of steps, each sufficiently minor so that the subject does not notice change in him- or herself and does not become aware of the goals of the program until late in the process (if ever). ...
Reading the manual summary, other sites and descriptions I have found, plus my own experience of the weekend proves this portion of Ms. Singers observations to be applicable to MKP. One telling line taken directly from the manual is in regards to men being placed in
a darkend room for a period of hours. "So they can feel the [i:f80bb728f2]descent[/i:f80bb728f2]." (Emphasis mine). The weekend has a systematic apporach where a person is accused, removed of all identity; "What is your name?" he said, poking his finger into the name tag (With 38 on it) on my chest., removed of time and spacial refereneces by removal of timepieces and placement for an unknown amount of time in an enclosed space in darkness, removal of the person from that and placed into an enclosed space where they are publicly critized for their actions thus far the weekend (not following unknown rules.), disclosures are demanded and worked until admissions are given, rewards are then given with a break where mininal nourishment is provided, followed by a visualization, (Trance state work), followed by intense labor (moving a tree in darkness), followed by a return to the "Raft" and so on.
This is the boiling frog theory at it's best.
- This criteria is met by NWTA
Quote
The tactics of a thought reform program are organized to destabilize individuals' sense of self by getting them to drastically reinterpret their life's history, radically alter their world view, accept a new version of reality and causality, ...
My experience of the weekend to the point where I left was such that one is Kept off balance. (we did not know when someone would come get us from the darkened room.) See nametag reference above.
From Manual:
"I create my own [i:f80bb728f2]perception of reality.[/i:f80bb728f2]"
"outer reality exists as a reflection of my inner world."
[i:f80bb728f2]"Higher states of consciousness exist and reflect greater abilities to manifest my inner reality."[/i:f80bb728f2]
"[i:f80bb728f2]Higher states of consciousness embody[/i:f80bb728f2] a life of service, compassion and unconditional love."
...Ultimately the process may intentionally be designed to "snap you right out of that other world in a flash...Nohing makes sense here...only to feel."
Quote
...and develop dependency on the organization, thereby being turned into a deployable agent of the organization operating the thought reform program....
As you may have read in commentary above, one person on this board is experiencing pressure from his Father In Law ([board.culteducation.com]) to go on a weekend. I am guessing that many of you here to defend MKP also feel it is your mission to change our minds and help us see some value to the group.
Perhaps to recruit. I'd ask you to honestly state that you do not point to the group as your solution to another man's trouble, whatever it may be.
I can't say more than this..
- I think this criteria is met by MKP/NWTA
Quote
Second-generation thought reform programs expose participants to exercises and experiences that disrupt psychological defense systems, causing some individuals to be flooded with emotions and others to dissociate and split off parts of their awareness. Psychological decompensations and the onset of other symptoms appear related to the combined effects of features described earlier, especially to rapid, intense arousal of aversive emotional states and to dissociation-producing techniques.
The pledge is removed from their luggage, subjected to sleep deprivation which among other things causes emotional stress, there is guided image work using "Iron John" while hypnotic music is played and points are emphasized by staff members. My experience with "M" (See my essay) was that following it, he and others who I know who were part of MKP (At the time just called The New Warriors) was that they wanted to be called upon by their Warrior names, not their birth names. Just my experience.
Mankind project
Posted by:
bigboyx5
()
Date: February 28, 2007 10:27AM
I should point out that my father-inlaw has always and still treats me with respect, despite our differences. He and his wife also are genuinely happy together and attribute it to MKP. In their situation it appears to have worked, and I will not meddle without a damn good reason. For all the issues the man is still someone I admire greatly, his life experiences alone reassure me of that. I simply feel his trust has been abused.
Joe1. I do not make ANY accusation towards a professional (in any discipline) lightly. I have read and reread the ethics section of the psychologist's governing body for my area and have decided this was serious enough to contact them inquiring about the involvement. What concerns me is that this professional is recommending people to this weekend, yet I don't remember seeing his NWTA grad cert anywhere in his office. My wife also told me (we had talked in depth about her weekend between my first and second post) that there was a psychologist at her weekend as well. I would also just once like to see some professional credentials from the APA or other group attached to a positve comment about the group. Especially since they are endorsing by attending. If they are out there, they NEED to be heard.
Perhaps my greatest concern is the fact that MPK was co-founded by a mental health provider (I am unsure of Mr. Kauth's designation and status), yet he has published no papers on his group (that I have been able to find). I would think that if the evidence existed it would be front and center on the MPK website.
One of the comparisons my wife made was to mention that this training is similar to many elite forces training. My first thought was, yes, except that in that situation, the end result is to create a cohesive unit that is able to take lives without question when ordered by a superior. As well as the fact that the training may take months, the volunteers know how they will be treated, there is a trained psychologist available at all stages, and the group is ultimately responsible to an elected civilian government. Mr. Ross can you or any other professional comment on this?
I must admit as well, that in the last week my wife and I are happier than we've been in a very long time. As well I have for the first time admitted some of my personal problems and agreed to seek 1 on 1 therapy. Though I feel that I have been exposing my own demons while researching this and feel more revitalised than I have in years.
All I seek from my part in this forum is that people make informed decisons before letting someone else play with their individuality. I feel the MKP is a dangerous group, but that is in the absense of verifiable (reproducable) results, as well as my sole opinion. And yes Joe1, I will be asking the MH providers involved very soon!
Joe1. I do not make ANY accusation towards a professional (in any discipline) lightly. I have read and reread the ethics section of the psychologist's governing body for my area and have decided this was serious enough to contact them inquiring about the involvement. What concerns me is that this professional is recommending people to this weekend, yet I don't remember seeing his NWTA grad cert anywhere in his office. My wife also told me (we had talked in depth about her weekend between my first and second post) that there was a psychologist at her weekend as well. I would also just once like to see some professional credentials from the APA or other group attached to a positve comment about the group. Especially since they are endorsing by attending. If they are out there, they NEED to be heard.
Perhaps my greatest concern is the fact that MPK was co-founded by a mental health provider (I am unsure of Mr. Kauth's designation and status), yet he has published no papers on his group (that I have been able to find). I would think that if the evidence existed it would be front and center on the MPK website.
One of the comparisons my wife made was to mention that this training is similar to many elite forces training. My first thought was, yes, except that in that situation, the end result is to create a cohesive unit that is able to take lives without question when ordered by a superior. As well as the fact that the training may take months, the volunteers know how they will be treated, there is a trained psychologist available at all stages, and the group is ultimately responsible to an elected civilian government. Mr. Ross can you or any other professional comment on this?
I must admit as well, that in the last week my wife and I are happier than we've been in a very long time. As well I have for the first time admitted some of my personal problems and agreed to seek 1 on 1 therapy. Though I feel that I have been exposing my own demons while researching this and feel more revitalised than I have in years.
All I seek from my part in this forum is that people make informed decisons before letting someone else play with their individuality. I feel the MKP is a dangerous group, but that is in the absense of verifiable (reproducable) results, as well as my sole opinion. And yes Joe1, I will be asking the MH providers involved very soon!
Mankind project
Posted by:
horse
()
Date: February 28, 2007 11:41AM
Dear NotOneOfThem--
I'm sorry but I have to get to bed soon, so I can't write a complete reply right now, but I will try to do so--perhaps in pieces--over the next two or three days.
I do have a couple of requests for clarification:
1. Your narrative of your own experience of the NWTA, dated 2/15/2007, which took place in 1993, states that you left the training late Friday night. Your narrative of the entire NWTA that you posted today, with comparisons to excerpts from Dr. Singer's "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties," does not draw a clear distinction between your own experiences and other accounts from which you draw. I'm not looking for formal footnotes, but I think our communication would be improved if we were both clear about what we have experienced, what we have witnessed, and what we have been told.
2. In "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties," the examples to which Dr. Singer refers--"Soviet and Chinese thought reform and behavior control practices" and the cases of "Kirk" and "Beverly"--all stretch out over weeks, months, or, in Beverly's case, years. Did Dr. Singer ever apply these categories to a program or programs that were less than 48 hours in length? Has anyone else with credentials comparable to Dr. Singer's done so?
3. I have no problem working from "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties" first, but I was hoping to introduce this message board to Dr. Singer's "How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults." ([u:79f49c8909]http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_marine.htm[/u:79f49c8909][/color:79f49c8909]) Rich Tosi, one of the founders of the NWTA, had been a longtime officer in the Marine Corps and was for a time at Parris Island, the Marine recruit training center. I have heard from a variety of internal MKP sources that much of the tone and some of the content of the Friday night section of the NWTA--which you found objectionable, and for good reason, since you were not aware of what you were getting yourself into--comes from Rich's Marine experience.
One more thing for now--Bill Kauth is not a psychiatrist, he has a master's degree in psychology.
I'm yawning and my eyes are drooping. Goodnight, all.
I'm sorry but I have to get to bed soon, so I can't write a complete reply right now, but I will try to do so--perhaps in pieces--over the next two or three days.
I do have a couple of requests for clarification:
1. Your narrative of your own experience of the NWTA, dated 2/15/2007, which took place in 1993, states that you left the training late Friday night. Your narrative of the entire NWTA that you posted today, with comparisons to excerpts from Dr. Singer's "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties," does not draw a clear distinction between your own experiences and other accounts from which you draw. I'm not looking for formal footnotes, but I think our communication would be improved if we were both clear about what we have experienced, what we have witnessed, and what we have been told.
2. In "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties," the examples to which Dr. Singer refers--"Soviet and Chinese thought reform and behavior control practices" and the cases of "Kirk" and "Beverly"--all stretch out over weeks, months, or, in Beverly's case, years. Did Dr. Singer ever apply these categories to a program or programs that were less than 48 hours in length? Has anyone else with credentials comparable to Dr. Singer's done so?
3. I have no problem working from "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties" first, but I was hoping to introduce this message board to Dr. Singer's "How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults." ([u:79f49c8909]http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_marine.htm[/u:79f49c8909][/color:79f49c8909]) Rich Tosi, one of the founders of the NWTA, had been a longtime officer in the Marine Corps and was for a time at Parris Island, the Marine recruit training center. I have heard from a variety of internal MKP sources that much of the tone and some of the content of the Friday night section of the NWTA--which you found objectionable, and for good reason, since you were not aware of what you were getting yourself into--comes from Rich's Marine experience.
One more thing for now--Bill Kauth is not a psychiatrist, he has a master's degree in psychology.
I'm yawning and my eyes are drooping. Goodnight, all.
Mankind project
Posted by:
sonsio
()
Date: February 28, 2007 01:42PM
That I won't delve into the specific details of the weekend is an evasive answer? That was an explicit statement of where I would not go that I've been consistent on from my first post.Quote
NotOneOfThem
Sonsio
What I am finding remarkable is your lack of answering direct questions about items that are public knowledge as posted here on this Forum and other places. I asked you to explain how putting someone in a dark room for hours was empowerment, and you state you will not explain steps in the process. Evasive answer. Could you at least answer that for me? (Perhaps I've asked too many questions in a post and they are being lost in the text.)
I've responded to many of your questions, obviously given the lengths of my posts, but not all get responded to. Regarding why mystery is used in the weekend. My view on it is that the weekend is meant to emulate various rituals across cultures for initiation into manhood. These rituals are all over the map with regards to what is done, many of the males entering the various ritual are unaware of what precisely they will go through, along the line of reasoning that it is a thing that men know and you will know when you have passed through and are a man.Quote
NotOneOfThem
I asked, and I did not read an answer as to why the 'mystery' is needed for the weekend.
Regarding your questions about "hostility" and "puttings someone in a dark room for hours". I've responded in past notes that I see the experiences on the weekend as role playing. Experiences with intention. If you were to put someone in a dark room for a period of time at the beginning of an experience (not even remotely close to hours) and told them not to speak, can you truly not think of reasons for it or are you so busy trying to find the hurt and in negative in it that you have closed your mind? A few responses that I have off the cuff are... get the person thinking deeply on what the hell they've gotten into, what brought them to this point, why are they there, what do they want out of this? Get the person to separate from the rush of daily life and the concerns of the staying afloat, what is wrong with the car, got to get to cutting the grass, where am I going to get the money for fixing the car, got to finish the project at work, and so on. And again and again, circle back to, what in my life has brought me to this point and what I think this is going to be like.
What you see as wandering, I see as directly on point. Your statement above translates in my mind to "I pointed out the way a healing retreat can go without the negative experience I had in your retreat, you pointing out that other types of retreats different from mine may work for people is not in context". My response, different strokes for different folks.Quote
NotOneOfThem
My reason for mentioning the silent retreat was to illustrate that healing, processing and so on can be done without the need for hostility, inspections, lack of trust and so on as I see depicted by NWTA/MKP weekends. (Just to keep it in context.. you are wandering away from that.)
Advertising a result is a sign of a cult? I find that line of reasoning disturbing. Also, I disagree in the dark that your retreat doesn't advertise a result, be it over or an implicit result of health, or peace, or relaxation, or something. If people did not have expectations of some type, it would be akin to saying "hey, group of people gathering over here for the weekend, come without expectations".Quote
NotOneOfThem
The answer that, I am proud to say is no, it is not the same result for everyone, but, I guess that would depend on what you define as result. MKP advertises a result, "Initiation into manhood." and "Living without Apology" and frankly, that is concerning and to me a sign of the problem. Landmark Education, about the same level as MKP on the 'cult' scale as I see it, also advertises a result.
Mankind project
Posted by:
Joe1
()
Date: February 28, 2007 07:54PM
Dear BigBoyx5,
It sounds like whatever you have been doing over the last week is working for you. It takes a big man to seek help. Well done.
I would appreciate you letting us know what you discover about psychotherapy and the ManKind project, the motivation a psychotherapist has in recommending such programs, and the outcome that psychotherapists who have recommended it to some of their clients have witnessed.
I have also heard of psychotherapists recommending programs such as the ManKind project to their clients.
I look forward to seeing where this journey takes you,
I echo that the ManKind project can be dangerous. If it is taken by somebody who is not psychologically fit or in serious therapy. It can be destructive and should not be taken by people in this situation.
In another program I have witnessed someone have a big reaction to a training and it came out that they have had suicidal tendancies in the past. He was only able to come onto the training as he lied on his personal information document. He was supported to get professional help after the course and I can report that in this case the guy is doing a lot better.
The challenge that programs such as the ManKind Project face is that there is no way to account for mens integrity on filling out these forms and the resultant screening measures. It is dangerous for vulnerable men I agree, but there is only so much that can be done to counteract this.
Full power to your personal journey BigBoy,
Respect,
Joseph
It sounds like whatever you have been doing over the last week is working for you. It takes a big man to seek help. Well done.
I would appreciate you letting us know what you discover about psychotherapy and the ManKind project, the motivation a psychotherapist has in recommending such programs, and the outcome that psychotherapists who have recommended it to some of their clients have witnessed.
I have also heard of psychotherapists recommending programs such as the ManKind project to their clients.
I look forward to seeing where this journey takes you,
I echo that the ManKind project can be dangerous. If it is taken by somebody who is not psychologically fit or in serious therapy. It can be destructive and should not be taken by people in this situation.
In another program I have witnessed someone have a big reaction to a training and it came out that they have had suicidal tendancies in the past. He was only able to come onto the training as he lied on his personal information document. He was supported to get professional help after the course and I can report that in this case the guy is doing a lot better.
The challenge that programs such as the ManKind Project face is that there is no way to account for mens integrity on filling out these forms and the resultant screening measures. It is dangerous for vulnerable men I agree, but there is only so much that can be done to counteract this.
Full power to your personal journey BigBoy,
Respect,
Joseph
Mankind project
Posted by:
NotOneOfThem
()
Date: March 01, 2007 12:06AM
Quote
I've responded to many of your questions, obviously given the lengths of my posts, but not all get responded to. Regarding why mystery is used in the weekend. My view on it is that the weekend is meant to emulate various rituals across cultures for initiation into manhood. These rituals are all over the map with regards to what is done, many of the males entering the various ritual are unaware of what precisely they will go through, along the line of reasoning that it is a thing that men know and you will know when you have passed through and are a man.
"initiation into manhood", I'll take note of that for later in my response.
Quote
Regarding your questions about "hostility" and "puttings someone in a dark room for hours". I've responded in past notes that I see the experiences on the weekend as role playing. Experiences with intention. If you were to put someone in a dark room for a period of time at the beginning of an experience (not even remotely close to hours) and told them not to speak, can you truly not think of reasons for it or are you so busy trying to find the hurt and in negative in it that you have closed your mind? A few responses that I have off the cuff are... get the person thinking deeply on what the hell they've gotten into, what brought them to this point, why are they there, what do they want out of this? Get the person to separate from the rush of daily life and the concerns of the staying afloat, what is wrong with the car, got to get to cutting the grass, where am I going to get the money for fixing the car, got to finish the project at work, and so on. And again and again, circle back to, what in my life has brought me to this point and what I think this is going to be like.
My response to being placed in a dark room for hours was 1: Disorientation of time. (Part of the manuals call for keeping the initiate off balance) Wondering what the hell any of what I had experience so far had to do with being a man, and if this was what 'being a man' was about, I wanted no part of it. Why had I paid $300.00 to experience the hostility, searches, and what could be [u:7a9de16d81]legally seen as false imprisonment.[/u:7a9de16d81]
Tell me again how that is empowering?
QuoteWhat you see as wandering, I see as directly on point. Your statement above translates in my mind to "I pointed out the way a healing retreat can go without the negative experience I had in your retreat, you pointing out that other types of retreats different from mine may work for people is not in context". My response, different strokes for different folks.Quote
NotOneOfThem
My reason for mentioning the silent retreat was to illustrate that healing, processing and so on can be done without the need for hostility, inspections, lack of trust and so on as I see depicted by NWTA/MKP weekends. (Just to keep it in context.. you are wandering away from that.)
True, different methods for different folks, however, one does not find a section on this or other sites about silent retreats being suspect.
QuoteAdvertising a result is a sign of a cult? I find that line of reasoning disturbing. Also, I disagree in the dark that your retreat doesn't advertise a result, be it over or an implicit result of health, or peace, or relaxation, or something. If people did not have expectations of some type, it would be akin to saying "hey, group of people gathering over here for the weekend, come without expectations".Quote
NotOneOfThem
The answer that, I am proud to say is no, it is not the same result for everyone, but, I guess that would depend on what you define as result. MKP advertises a result, "Initiation into manhood." and "Living without Apology" and frankly, that is concerning and to me a sign of the problem. Landmark Education, about the same level as MKP on the 'cult' scale as I see it, also advertises a result.
Actually, Soncio, that is [u:7a9de16d81]exactly[/u:7a9de16d81] how they are advertised. We do not say that when the weekend is over you will have experienced any particualar thing. It is "Come join us at <Location> to get away and do what you need to do for your self." We do not say that when it is over you will be something different. We do not take away identies and re-form the person into something else or give them a different name.
MKP calls the 'training adventure' an 'initiation into manhood'. And, that, Soncio is a implied result. Landmark education does the same thing.
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 01, 2007 12:14AM
Joe1:
Again, your response to problems within MKP seems to follow the same predictable pattern. That is, you are unwilling or unable to place any responsibility for problems on MKP itself, the way it is designed and led.
Instead, you repeatedly state or imply that those that have suffered problems through MKP are somehow to blame for thier own injuries.
This is not a meaningful response here. And repeating such a response over and over again does not reflect any effort on your part to have a meaningful dialog with people hurt by MKP.
Again, your response to problems within MKP seems to follow the same predictable pattern. That is, you are unwilling or unable to place any responsibility for problems on MKP itself, the way it is designed and led.
Instead, you repeatedly state or imply that those that have suffered problems through MKP are somehow to blame for thier own injuries.
This is not a meaningful response here. And repeating such a response over and over again does not reflect any effort on your part to have a meaningful dialog with people hurt by MKP.
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 01, 2007 12:20AM
sonsio:
Do you have something to offer here other than apologies for MKP, your subjective "experience" testimonial and evasions?
Repeating the same things over and over again and refusing to answer specific questions is not a meaningful dialog.
Do you have something to offer here other than apologies for MKP, your subjective "experience" testimonial and evasions?
Repeating the same things over and over again and refusing to answer specific questions is not a meaningful dialog.
Mankind project
Posted by:
NotOneOfThem
()
Date: March 01, 2007 12:47AM
Perhaps this helps:Quote
Perhaps my greatest concern is the fact that MPK was co-founded by a mental health provider (I am unsure of Mr. Kauth's designation and status), yet he has published no papers on his group (that I have been able to find). I would think that if the evidence existed it would be front and center on the MPK website.
From Wikipedia:
[i:ba93e4ea22]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mankind_Project
The New Warrior Training that would later become the NWTA was founded in 1984 by three men: a former Marine Corps officer named Rich Tosi; Bill Kauth, a therapist and member of the "mythopoetic" men's movement; and therapist Ron Herring, Ph.D.,[7]. Designed to compress a large amount of material into less than forty-eight hours, NWTA purports to be a "radical departure" from the modern male psyche, internally navigating something similar to Joseph Campbell's "hero's journey". Men who undertake it pass through three phases characteristic to virtually all historic forms of male initiation: descent, ordeal and return.[/i:ba93e4ea22]
Mr. Kauth was introduced to me as a Psychiatrist, and he is the author of several books on the topic of 'mens issues'
Quote
One of the comparisons my wife made was to mention that this training is similar to many elite forces training. My first thought was, yes, except that in that situation, the end result is to create a cohesive unit that is able to take lives without question when ordered by a superior. As well as the fact that the training may take months, the volunteers know how they will be treated, there is a trained psychologist available at all stages, and the group is ultimately responsible to an elected civilian government. Mr. Ross can you or any other professional comment on this?
Perhaps this is of help
How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults
By Margaret Singer, Ph.D.
[www.culteducation.com]
Quote
I must admit as well, that in the last week my wife and I are happier than we've been in a very long time. As well I have for the first time admitted some of my personal problems and agreed to seek 1 on 1 therapy. Though I feel that I have been exposing my own demons while researching this and feel more revitalised than I have in years.
Communications is key to the happyness of any relationship. That's from my experience.
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