Mankind project
Posted by:
MKP Warrior
()
Date: April 19, 2007 03:41AM
'Blaming' is your word, not mine.
My experience of MKP over the last 1 ½ years has been one of empowering the individual. I simply to not agree with the conclusions you draw from the data presented. There may be abusive individuals in MKP, as there are in the Catholic church or the police, but it is not inherent in the culture or specific processes.
Under nearly all circumstances, adult individuals are free to choose. Any other view, in my judgment, robs the individual of the power and the responsibility to control themselves. Someone blaming someone else for one’s situation is the ultimate victim. Perhaps Rick Ross brings this up when he deprograms LGAT members who have given someone else control. I hope so.
MKP Warrior
My experience of MKP over the last 1 ½ years has been one of empowering the individual. I simply to not agree with the conclusions you draw from the data presented. There may be abusive individuals in MKP, as there are in the Catholic church or the police, but it is not inherent in the culture or specific processes.
Under nearly all circumstances, adult individuals are free to choose. Any other view, in my judgment, robs the individual of the power and the responsibility to control themselves. Someone blaming someone else for one’s situation is the ultimate victim. Perhaps Rick Ross brings this up when he deprograms LGAT members who have given someone else control. I hope so.
MKP Warrior
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: April 19, 2007 03:55AM
MKP Warrior:
LGATs like MKP have very serious problems inherently by design. That's why they have so many personal injuries and often require participants to sign some type of release to avoid any legal responsibility.
The MKP manual instructions expose the fact that the organization manipulates people knowingly without their knowledge.
Blaming the victims that have been deceived by such deliberate manipulation isn't a meaningful response to what was done.
You are not here for discussion, but rather just to repeatedly defend MKP regardless of the facts.
You are here to subvert this thread as an "Internet troll."
LGATs like MKP have very serious problems inherently by design. That's why they have so many personal injuries and often require participants to sign some type of release to avoid any legal responsibility.
The MKP manual instructions expose the fact that the organization manipulates people knowingly without their knowledge.
Blaming the victims that have been deceived by such deliberate manipulation isn't a meaningful response to what was done.
You are not here for discussion, but rather just to repeatedly defend MKP regardless of the facts.
You are here to subvert this thread as an "Internet troll."
Mankind project
Posted by:
gftr99
()
Date: April 20, 2007 08:41AM
Having read through many pages of discussion, what LGAT would you recommend?
I must admit I'm still confused. I've attended many other trainings by qualified and certified professionals and the design problems that you suggest are also part of their process. Some are even more intense.
Dr. Phil tells people on national TV programs "Well you're just stupid to accept that behavior". That form of feedback is interpreted by some as abusive. Dr Phil has people sign extensive releases. The technique is called a pattern interrupt which creates cognitive dissonance and helps people to break habits or see the nature of their difficulty.
Personally I haven't experienced anything worse or different in a New Warrior Training.
Rick, these are interesting times and not everyone works well with the certified professional crowd and there are a lot of lousy therapists out there.
And the internet provides unparalleled access and anonymity as well. How do you professionally and rigorously separate truth from fiction?
I'm a professional and I've been involved in New Warriors for 15 years and a some of what I see written here is false and the reactions of individuals I believe are unfair. I'm not saying they are not angry, I am suggesting that while their experience was not satisfactory, how come so many are? And when a patient gets angry at a psychologist, yes there are professional organizations to fall back on AND over 99% of the complaints are dismissed with no action against the service.
What that tells me is that A LOT of people who need help are also not very clear on what can happen in therapy and that some of the outcomes are not easy to hear. I think the same is true for coaching, consulting and many other services. like MKP's that is educational in nature. They teach people some principles that some men don't want to hear or live up to.
Others have been mollycoddled all their lives and they suddenly grow up and speak up and take a stand... and the angry partner rails on this bulletin board. How is that fair and how does that 'help' the angry person?
Men who come TEND to have something going on in the first place, even if their wife is unaware that he is unhappy. So the chance that divorce or a change in the demeanor is very high... and the same can be said of therapists and priests. Men do have a tendency to hide what's really going on inside.
For me, if you did a rigorous check of the professionals, priests, lawyers, businessmen, authors and many other prominent men who have done the New Warrior Training Adventure and continued to be involved, you would be hard pressed to claim mind control and other accusations. Perhaps you should come to one of our conventions and meet and talk with some of the men.
At least you'd have a chance to question, talk to men from all walks of life, see how we try to improve and create a great experience for men.
I'll close with a great example of something that put in writing seems ridiculous... but world famous therapists have been using it for 75 years.
So a person is asked a question like "So what are you so angry about?" and the person answers "I don't know" and after several times back and forth, rewording the question etc, the person teaching or helping says "So if you did know the answer, what would it be?"
And suddenly the person blurts out the answer and the process whether therapeutic or educational can move forward. The question is ridiculous, and it works GREAT! I use it in boardroom meetings with my employees and it is amazing how effective it is.
By the same token, if you isolated that question with no background, you could have a field day ridiculing it. You could even call it manipulative.
Keep well
GFTR99
I must admit I'm still confused. I've attended many other trainings by qualified and certified professionals and the design problems that you suggest are also part of their process. Some are even more intense.
Dr. Phil tells people on national TV programs "Well you're just stupid to accept that behavior". That form of feedback is interpreted by some as abusive. Dr Phil has people sign extensive releases. The technique is called a pattern interrupt which creates cognitive dissonance and helps people to break habits or see the nature of their difficulty.
Personally I haven't experienced anything worse or different in a New Warrior Training.
Rick, these are interesting times and not everyone works well with the certified professional crowd and there are a lot of lousy therapists out there.
And the internet provides unparalleled access and anonymity as well. How do you professionally and rigorously separate truth from fiction?
I'm a professional and I've been involved in New Warriors for 15 years and a some of what I see written here is false and the reactions of individuals I believe are unfair. I'm not saying they are not angry, I am suggesting that while their experience was not satisfactory, how come so many are? And when a patient gets angry at a psychologist, yes there are professional organizations to fall back on AND over 99% of the complaints are dismissed with no action against the service.
What that tells me is that A LOT of people who need help are also not very clear on what can happen in therapy and that some of the outcomes are not easy to hear. I think the same is true for coaching, consulting and many other services. like MKP's that is educational in nature. They teach people some principles that some men don't want to hear or live up to.
Others have been mollycoddled all their lives and they suddenly grow up and speak up and take a stand... and the angry partner rails on this bulletin board. How is that fair and how does that 'help' the angry person?
Men who come TEND to have something going on in the first place, even if their wife is unaware that he is unhappy. So the chance that divorce or a change in the demeanor is very high... and the same can be said of therapists and priests. Men do have a tendency to hide what's really going on inside.
For me, if you did a rigorous check of the professionals, priests, lawyers, businessmen, authors and many other prominent men who have done the New Warrior Training Adventure and continued to be involved, you would be hard pressed to claim mind control and other accusations. Perhaps you should come to one of our conventions and meet and talk with some of the men.
At least you'd have a chance to question, talk to men from all walks of life, see how we try to improve and create a great experience for men.
I'll close with a great example of something that put in writing seems ridiculous... but world famous therapists have been using it for 75 years.
So a person is asked a question like "So what are you so angry about?" and the person answers "I don't know" and after several times back and forth, rewording the question etc, the person teaching or helping says "So if you did know the answer, what would it be?"
And suddenly the person blurts out the answer and the process whether therapeutic or educational can move forward. The question is ridiculous, and it works GREAT! I use it in boardroom meetings with my employees and it is amazing how effective it is.
By the same token, if you isolated that question with no background, you could have a field day ridiculing it. You could even call it manipulative.
Keep well
GFTR99
Quote
rrmoderator
MKP Warrior:
LGATs like MKP have very serious problems inherently by design. That's why they have so many personal injuries and often require participants to sign some type of release to avoid any legal responsibility.
The MKP manual instructions expose the fact that the organization manipulates people knowingly without their knowledge.
Blaming the victims that have been deceived by such deliberate manipulation isn't a meaningful response to what was done.
You are not here for discussion, but rather just to repeatedly defend MKP regardless of the facts.
You are here to subvert this thread as an "Internet troll."
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: April 20, 2007 08:49PM
ggtr99:
See [www.culteducation.com]
This research by a noted clinical psychologist points out the inherent problems with most mass marthon training, such as the Mankind Project.
13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:
They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
They lack clearly defined responsibility.
They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
The groups were determined to be dangerous when:
Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
Virtually all LGATs have these same liabilities and danger signs.
I receive constant complaints about LGATs and would not recommend any of them.
Instead, those interested in continuing education should contact a college or university. And those experiencing personal problems might discuss them with family members or friends, a priest, pastor or rabbi, or identify community resources such as licensed counselors, psychologists or a psychiatrist. There are also support groups, often facilitated by helping professionals in most communities through social services, churches and community cernters.
You say "there are a lot of lousy therapists out there."
But a licenses therapist, such as marriage or family therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist, is typically accountable to licensing boards and won't ask you to sign a release form.
Again, you are attempting to blame those injured by MKP for their injuries. And "blaming the victim" is one of the stated warning signs above of a dangerous group.
Anyone interested in the manipulation encouraged by MKP need only read its manual instructions, excerpted within this thread.
See [board.culteducation.com]
Compare that with the process of coercive persuasion as outlined by sociologist Richard Ofshe.
See [www.culteducation.com]
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
The use of an organized peer group
Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified.
This is quite different from other forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.
Psychologist Margaret Singer composed a chart to illustrate the distinctions.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Other techniques of manipulations such as "guided imagery," which is used by MKP, are also listed and discussed by Singer.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, author of the book "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" described in depth what behavior can be matched to his criteria in groups that are engaged in what is known within popular culture as "brainwashing."
Lifton essentially says, "if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it just might be a duck.
But MKP supporters posting on this thread would have people believe, it is an elephant instead.
Please excuse the repitition here, but apoloists attempting to spin for MKP have been very redundant and repeated the same apologies on this thread over and over again.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This research by a noted clinical psychologist points out the inherent problems with most mass marthon training, such as the Mankind Project.
13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:
They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
They lack clearly defined responsibility.
They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
The groups were determined to be dangerous when:
Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
Virtually all LGATs have these same liabilities and danger signs.
I receive constant complaints about LGATs and would not recommend any of them.
Instead, those interested in continuing education should contact a college or university. And those experiencing personal problems might discuss them with family members or friends, a priest, pastor or rabbi, or identify community resources such as licensed counselors, psychologists or a psychiatrist. There are also support groups, often facilitated by helping professionals in most communities through social services, churches and community cernters.
You say "there are a lot of lousy therapists out there."
But a licenses therapist, such as marriage or family therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist, is typically accountable to licensing boards and won't ask you to sign a release form.
Again, you are attempting to blame those injured by MKP for their injuries. And "blaming the victim" is one of the stated warning signs above of a dangerous group.
Anyone interested in the manipulation encouraged by MKP need only read its manual instructions, excerpted within this thread.
See [board.culteducation.com]
Compare that with the process of coercive persuasion as outlined by sociologist Richard Ofshe.
See [www.culteducation.com]
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
The use of an organized peer group
Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified.
This is quite different from other forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.
Psychologist Margaret Singer composed a chart to illustrate the distinctions.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Other techniques of manipulations such as "guided imagery," which is used by MKP, are also listed and discussed by Singer.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, author of the book "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" described in depth what behavior can be matched to his criteria in groups that are engaged in what is known within popular culture as "brainwashing."
Lifton essentially says, "if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it just might be a duck.
But MKP supporters posting on this thread would have people believe, it is an elephant instead.
Please excuse the repitition here, but apoloists attempting to spin for MKP have been very redundant and repeated the same apologies on this thread over and over again.
Mankind project
Posted by:
gftr99
()
Date: April 23, 2007 02:31PM
Rick
Thanks for your extensive reply.
Given your criteria and opinions, it is pretty safe that we won't agree and I think that your heart is in a good place.
Far too many people do fall prey to endless scams of so many different types, overall I think it is better that you are working to let people know about bad situations.
The fault I see is the lack of scrutiny of the feedback coming in through a forum like this. And then when I respond, your criteria is so broad that I am bound to set off one of your criteria alarms.
So I will speak about myself and my experience only.
I was a harsh employer and a difficult husband. The very idea of consulting a therapist was an assault on my ego. And I had enough money and intelligence to control everyone around me.
I was an atheist so no priest to use.
I had no family excepting an equally arrogant mother.
Years before I heard of Warriors I had a number of good friends go to couples therapy and ended up blaming the men and divorce followed soon after.
Two people I knew went to a psychiatrist and ended up as drugged out wimps. (prescription drugs)
YPO was good, peers who gave me feedback but realistically many of them had the same personality type I had.
I took three different psychology courses at the local University and I thought it was a joke, talk talk talk, no action and really weak theories plus what I perceived as an anti-male bias. Also I was able to tie the professors in knots intellectually so I couldn't imagine how some weak theory was going to make a difference for me.
Somewhere in my psyche, I knew I needed to do something but for me at the time, religion was out, therapists were out and all of a sudden I saw a 'men's group' on a popular talk show on television. There was two therapists, an author, an educational psychologist, a life insurance agent, a construction company owner, a Marine Chaplain and two or three other men.
After listening to that show, I believed that perhaps that type of group might be able to get through to me.
The men were connected to the New Warrior Training Adventure, I checked the men and the group out and I got great feedback from some really solid men and I was assured that there was no dogma other than universal principles of self-determination, personal responsibility, integrity and accountability.
In my 15 years, that is exactly what they deliver. No one tells anyone what to think. I watched that French 'Landmark Forum' TV expose; that was horrid. It was absolutely abusive, even bizarre. And I speak French and some of the translation was less intense then what he was actually saying. If anyone tried that nonsense on me at that time I would have shredded that jerk. Today, I would turn to the crowd and tell them to hold the idiot 'hostage' in a non-violent way and find a way to get our money back immediately.
So you and I share some values.
The New Warrior training is tough, it does encourage men to look at how they lie to themselves and others and for me, although the process was hard, I probably learned more from hearing how horrible some men's lives were. I felt lucky and realized that my self centered way of living was not how I really wanted to live ,or what I wanted to teach or model for my daughter and certainly not how I wanted to be remembered.
That got to me.
I enjoyed the toughness and perhaps there is a way for us to warn people differently so that people can choose with more accuracy for themselves.
By the way, we do screen extensively and pay to have all the medical and psychological backgrounds checked by a medical professional trained in metal health and treat the data completely congruent with HIPPA privacy laws.
We refer all active addicts to treatment and they cannot come to our training, in addition, about 1 in 30 applicants are respectfully declined for medical or psychological issues.
Our old brochures from 10-12 years ago gave some very stern warnings about the intensity of the training. The PC police and new-agers have gradually removed those types of warnings wanting to be warm and fuzzy to all.
So thanks for helping me see New Warriors (MKP) through a critic's eyes.
GFTR99
Thanks for your extensive reply.
Given your criteria and opinions, it is pretty safe that we won't agree and I think that your heart is in a good place.
Far too many people do fall prey to endless scams of so many different types, overall I think it is better that you are working to let people know about bad situations.
The fault I see is the lack of scrutiny of the feedback coming in through a forum like this. And then when I respond, your criteria is so broad that I am bound to set off one of your criteria alarms.
So I will speak about myself and my experience only.
I was a harsh employer and a difficult husband. The very idea of consulting a therapist was an assault on my ego. And I had enough money and intelligence to control everyone around me.
I was an atheist so no priest to use.
I had no family excepting an equally arrogant mother.
Years before I heard of Warriors I had a number of good friends go to couples therapy and ended up blaming the men and divorce followed soon after.
Two people I knew went to a psychiatrist and ended up as drugged out wimps. (prescription drugs)
YPO was good, peers who gave me feedback but realistically many of them had the same personality type I had.
I took three different psychology courses at the local University and I thought it was a joke, talk talk talk, no action and really weak theories plus what I perceived as an anti-male bias. Also I was able to tie the professors in knots intellectually so I couldn't imagine how some weak theory was going to make a difference for me.
Somewhere in my psyche, I knew I needed to do something but for me at the time, religion was out, therapists were out and all of a sudden I saw a 'men's group' on a popular talk show on television. There was two therapists, an author, an educational psychologist, a life insurance agent, a construction company owner, a Marine Chaplain and two or three other men.
After listening to that show, I believed that perhaps that type of group might be able to get through to me.
The men were connected to the New Warrior Training Adventure, I checked the men and the group out and I got great feedback from some really solid men and I was assured that there was no dogma other than universal principles of self-determination, personal responsibility, integrity and accountability.
In my 15 years, that is exactly what they deliver. No one tells anyone what to think. I watched that French 'Landmark Forum' TV expose; that was horrid. It was absolutely abusive, even bizarre. And I speak French and some of the translation was less intense then what he was actually saying. If anyone tried that nonsense on me at that time I would have shredded that jerk. Today, I would turn to the crowd and tell them to hold the idiot 'hostage' in a non-violent way and find a way to get our money back immediately.
So you and I share some values.
The New Warrior training is tough, it does encourage men to look at how they lie to themselves and others and for me, although the process was hard, I probably learned more from hearing how horrible some men's lives were. I felt lucky and realized that my self centered way of living was not how I really wanted to live ,or what I wanted to teach or model for my daughter and certainly not how I wanted to be remembered.
That got to me.
I enjoyed the toughness and perhaps there is a way for us to warn people differently so that people can choose with more accuracy for themselves.
By the way, we do screen extensively and pay to have all the medical and psychological backgrounds checked by a medical professional trained in metal health and treat the data completely congruent with HIPPA privacy laws.
We refer all active addicts to treatment and they cannot come to our training, in addition, about 1 in 30 applicants are respectfully declined for medical or psychological issues.
Our old brochures from 10-12 years ago gave some very stern warnings about the intensity of the training. The PC police and new-agers have gradually removed those types of warnings wanting to be warm and fuzzy to all.
So thanks for helping me see New Warriors (MKP) through a critic's eyes.
GFTR99
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: April 23, 2007 08:08PM
gftr99:
No.
But MKP does set off quite a few alarms and seems to be little more than another LGAT or "mass marathon training" with all the accompanying problems, injuries and complaints.
I would not recommend MKP to anyone under any circumstances.
And you seem to be here as little more than a apologist attempting to spin whatever you can and ignore the rest.
Anyone considering MKP should read through this thread from the beginning to end.
See [board.culteducation.com]
Note the manual notes cited and compare those to the criteria.
Also, it's important to note the unwillingness of MKP supporters and their seeming inability to face the facts cited and their repeated attempts to place blame on those hurt and/or other individuals, rather than seriously consider the problems within the structure, design and leadership of MKP.
Compare MKP and its pattern of problems and complaints with other mass marathon training programs.
Landmark Education
See [www.culteducation.com]
Lifesping
See [www.culteducation.com]
Impact Trainings
See [www.culteducation.com]
NXIVM
See [www.culteducation.com]
Asiaworks
See [www.culteducation.com]
Sterling Institute of Relationship
See [www.culteducation.com]
Also see threads within this message board that refer to these groups.
What will become evident is that LGATs or mass marathon trainings not only have the same pattern of problems, but their various supporters posting at this board have the same pattern of apologies, excuses and spin, which is used virtually identically.
Quote
your criteria is so broad that I am bound to set off one of your criteria alarms.
No.
But MKP does set off quite a few alarms and seems to be little more than another LGAT or "mass marathon training" with all the accompanying problems, injuries and complaints.
I would not recommend MKP to anyone under any circumstances.
And you seem to be here as little more than a apologist attempting to spin whatever you can and ignore the rest.
Anyone considering MKP should read through this thread from the beginning to end.
See [board.culteducation.com]
Note the manual notes cited and compare those to the criteria.
Also, it's important to note the unwillingness of MKP supporters and their seeming inability to face the facts cited and their repeated attempts to place blame on those hurt and/or other individuals, rather than seriously consider the problems within the structure, design and leadership of MKP.
Compare MKP and its pattern of problems and complaints with other mass marathon training programs.
Landmark Education
See [www.culteducation.com]
Lifesping
See [www.culteducation.com]
Impact Trainings
See [www.culteducation.com]
NXIVM
See [www.culteducation.com]
Asiaworks
See [www.culteducation.com]
Sterling Institute of Relationship
See [www.culteducation.com]
Also see threads within this message board that refer to these groups.
What will become evident is that LGATs or mass marathon trainings not only have the same pattern of problems, but their various supporters posting at this board have the same pattern of apologies, excuses and spin, which is used virtually identically.
Mankind project
Posted by:
gftr99
()
Date: April 24, 2007 02:29AM
Quote
rrmoderator
gftr99:
And you seem to be here as little more than a apologist attempting to spin whatever you can and ignore the rest.
Anyone considering MKP should read through this thread from the beginning to end.
Rick,
I have read and read and read and I see a pattern of you calling anyone who tries to have a dialogue with you an 'apologist'.
I am open to dialogue but not to one-sided name calling.
GFTR99
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: April 24, 2007 03:31AM
gftr99:
Sorry, but I don't see what you post as a "dialog," but rather a redundant attempt to apologize for MKP and spin for the group.
If you have "read and read" you must know that your posts are virtually identical to other MKP apologists that have posted here.
A genuine dialog isn't about repeating the same mantra (e.g. it's anyone's fault but MKP) over and over again.
Do you have any other purpose here?
Sorry, but I don't see what you post as a "dialog," but rather a redundant attempt to apologize for MKP and spin for the group.
If you have "read and read" you must know that your posts are virtually identical to other MKP apologists that have posted here.
A genuine dialog isn't about repeating the same mantra (e.g. it's anyone's fault but MKP) over and over again.
Do you have any other purpose here?
Mankind project
Posted by:
gftr99
()
Date: April 24, 2007 11:46PM
Rick
I don't agree with you, once I realized what was going on here I figured the best approach was to share my story.
I found this forum doing some research on keywords and blogs for my corporate website (nothing to do with MKP) and was genuinely surprised to see the MKP name talked about like this.
I had some time so I thought I would try to help. My impression is that you and others posting here have hardened your hearts dealing with these emotional issues.
It was good research because I see clearly now that 'open' communication can be very destructive when there is absolutely no control or identification of the input. The problem on the open internet is there is no way to 'smell the sushi'.
You asked what's my purpose here and that is my answer, straight and simple.
Clearly 'trying to help' doesn't work in this type of venue.
Keep well Rick, keep up the good fight and I believe that you did not answer my question. I'm not even clear that you read the whole post.
Lots of men get fried by psychologists, are not religious and couldn't have the conversation you suggest with relatives or friends, that's the nature of a lot of men.
To bad there isn't an AA for men who simply want help.
Interesting too in reading some of the threads. You have one called
"Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult." where you rightfully defend AA and dismiss the cult charges.
The problem though is the name of the thread survives and search engines pick up on it.
Anyway, I've learned to keep my mouth shut on this type of discussion forum, thanks for that.
I'm done.
Sincerely
GFTR99
I don't agree with you, once I realized what was going on here I figured the best approach was to share my story.
I found this forum doing some research on keywords and blogs for my corporate website (nothing to do with MKP) and was genuinely surprised to see the MKP name talked about like this.
I had some time so I thought I would try to help. My impression is that you and others posting here have hardened your hearts dealing with these emotional issues.
It was good research because I see clearly now that 'open' communication can be very destructive when there is absolutely no control or identification of the input. The problem on the open internet is there is no way to 'smell the sushi'.
You asked what's my purpose here and that is my answer, straight and simple.
Clearly 'trying to help' doesn't work in this type of venue.
Keep well Rick, keep up the good fight and I believe that you did not answer my question. I'm not even clear that you read the whole post.
Lots of men get fried by psychologists, are not religious and couldn't have the conversation you suggest with relatives or friends, that's the nature of a lot of men.
To bad there isn't an AA for men who simply want help.
Interesting too in reading some of the threads. You have one called
"Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult." where you rightfully defend AA and dismiss the cult charges.
The problem though is the name of the thread survives and search engines pick up on it.
Anyway, I've learned to keep my mouth shut on this type of discussion forum, thanks for that.
I'm done.
Sincerely
GFTR99
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: April 25, 2007 01:57AM
gftr99:
Right.
Those posting here can "smell the sushi."
What you call "help" is for the benefit of MKP, not the people hurt by the group.
After all, you have admitted repeatedly that you have an emotional stake and personal investment in MKP made over a period of years.
And it seems that you have been hardened by the experience and don't care much about the damage done by MKP.
Right.
Those posting here can "smell the sushi."
What you call "help" is for the benefit of MKP, not the people hurt by the group.
After all, you have admitted repeatedly that you have an emotional stake and personal investment in MKP made over a period of years.
And it seems that you have been hardened by the experience and don't care much about the damage done by MKP.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.