My experience AND my wife's experience is very different from what I've read here.

And it's somewhat overwhelming; I've read partial lists posted, I've read outright lies and confusing interpretations with cute little comments. I couldn't possibly undo the bizarre interpretation of the Weekend and the group that y'all have formed.

I think of AA and some of its traditions and then the many 'quips' they use and without context they would seem highly insulting and invasive.

I'm a normal guy who enjoys the heck out of MKP. I have been to over 50 graduations and NOT ONE was high pressure like a Landmark event. And the numbers are so much smaller than Landmark, Sterling and many other of the gatherings mentionned.

My wife and I travel extensively and we have dropped in on Warrior brothers and Women within grads all over the world and no one is living in a cult, no one is titihing although many pay membership dues far less than Lions or Rotary, many pay nothing after their Weekend.

Do we have some odd characters? Sure. We also have dull and boring accountants and computer geeks and construction workers.

Do we have divorces. Yes...at about the same level as the general public... which surprised me because I would assume that we would have higher rates because we attract a lot of men who are somewhat lost, a little wimpy and a few angry guys as well. Judges have ordered men to take the NWTA as an anger management tool.

On the subject of taking away personal possesions. I have been to two mainstream religious retreats where when we arrived, we were told to put aside all but very basic clothes, toothbrush and toothpaste, one comb or brush, all makeup was removed, ALL reading material, all electronics (although this was 25 years ago), watches etc AND all drugs. We were well taken care of in the sense that a silent man found us and brought us our meds when it was time to take meds. After all, we didn't have watches. Some exceptions were allowed EXACTLY the same as MKP in the 30+ trainings I have attended, certain meds like inhalers men keep with them. We ate about 300 calories a day and drank water only. Again, mainstream, 100's of millions of members in these religions.

As far as any sort of anti woman or marriage conserns. My wife has never cared AT ALL that there are parts of the training that I don't talk about... but I also didn't come home hammering or grilling her. We learned to talk and share more and truthfully I also stopped feeling guilty or angry if she was in a bad mood. That took some getting used to but after a couple of years my wife enjoyed the honesty. She admits that some of her friends question some of the ways we communicate and that often they don't understand. They are accustomed to the many stereotypical ways that husbands and wifes talk.

That's all I have for now, I welcome questions. If you make sarcastic or ironic statements implying I am brainwashed or am a brainwasher, probably we won't get very far but I will answer well intentioned queries.

Whoops, one last thing. I cannot be responsible for what someone says they found somewhere on the internet. I simply KNOW that some of the stuff in the messages I've read is nonsense, someone has deliberately changed the words OR someone else did and you downloaded incorrect data.

Keep well
GFTR99

GFTR99, when you say Judges have ordered attendance at these "educational" weekends, are you absolutely sure of this? I've spoken to the complaints director for the psychological governing body, and though their ethics code does not cover the groups themselves, any psychologist who recommends the weekend is in fact endorsing it. Why this is important is because NWTA makes you sign a waiver stating they are not responsible for any negative effects, however when a trained professional endorses the weekend, their insurance may now be in effect. Pretty beneficial to the NWTA, don't you think. I would think it's a safe bet that a judge would be under similar constraints?

I hear time and time again from those involved in the MKP that they call it therapy, yet the official literature states point blank this is a compliment not replacement for conventional therapy.

In the interest of clarity, I should point out that the local psychological governing body (what is correct terminology here) is Canadian. I'm unsure of the levels of governance in the US.

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I've read outright lies and confusing interpretations with cute little comments. Someone has deliberately changed the words OR someone else did and you downloaded incorrect data.

This is interesting GFT99, my husband has been to the NWTA and I-Groups, he has read this manual, he says that it is fairly right on as to what took place on the weekend. Is he lying to me? Or is he misinterpreting what he went through compared to what he is reading? Hmmm, or maybe he is just creating his own reality?

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My wife has never cared AT ALL that there are parts of the training that I don't talk about.

I request that you “allow” your wife to share her thoughts and opinions on this site herself.

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bizarre interpretation of the Weekend

Interesting statement, bizarre? Our opinions have come from our experiences. Are you telling us that we are imagining our experiences? That we are lying about our experiences? Or that our reality is…….misinterpreted?

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Do we have divorces. Yes...at about the same level as the general public... which surprised.

What proof do you have that the divorces within MKP is at the same level as the general public? Scientific data? Studies? Or just your opinion?

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Judges have ordered men to take the NWTA as an anger management tool.

Show me where this has happened; give me the name of the judges who have done so that I can research this for myself. Otherwise you are just “I will use your words here” saying outright lies and confusing interpretations with cute little comments.

MY experience showed me that NWTA made my husband a far angrier person than he had ever been before. So, that can be “interpreted” any way you like.

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I also stopped feeling guilty or angry if she was in a bad mood.

I agree, if your wife is just in a bad mood that has nothing to do with you, then you should not feel guilty, but if she is feeling pain at something you have said/done then you should feel guilty. It sounds like you do not respect your wife. You, are a secret keeper.

First off GFT99, nice to see another person on the board. I'm hoping you'll engage in some honst discusssion with us. However, it seems you are starting off with some assumptions....

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And it's somewhat overwhelming; I've read partial lists posted, I've read outright lies and confusing interpretations with cute little comments. I couldn't possibly undo the bizarre interpretation of the Weekend and the group that y'all have formed.

I think of AA and some of its traditions and then the many 'quips' they use and without context they would seem highly insulting and invasive.

Keep in mind that at least I claim to have experience in both AA, and MKP, having been one of the first people to leave a NTWA, telling Bill Kauth Himself that I was leaving. My interpretations are based on that experience as well as having the actual training manual in hand.

I'm curious, though it is off topic, what in AA you would see qualifies as insulting and invasive.

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I'm a normal guy who enjoys the heck out of MKP. I have been to over 50 graduations and NOT ONE was high pressure like a Landmark event. And the numbers are so much smaller than Landmark, Sterling and many other of the gatherings mentionned.

I'll grant you that perhaps there is less pressure from MKP as far as providing continual financial support for it's projects than Landmark etc. However, the initial training methods are very similar in some of the more edgy ways that puts MKP in a suspect area of brainwashing.. Sleep Deprivation, deprivation or pressure regarding use of restroom facilities and so on. There is information elsewhere on this site to that effect.

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My wife and I travel extensively and we have dropped in on Warrior brothers and Women within grads all over the world and no one is living in a cult, no one is titihing although many pay membership dues far less than Lions or Rotary, many pay nothing after their Weekend.

But, do those who pay nothing continue to participate in things such as the I-groups? The website and publications all state a fee for those portions of the program.

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On the subject of taking away personal possesions. I have been to two mainstream religious retreats where when we arrived, we were told to put aside all but very basic clothes, toothbrush and toothpaste, one comb or brush, all makeup was removed, ALL reading material, all electronics (although this was 25 years ago), watches etc AND all drugs. We were well taken care of in the sense that a silent man found us and brought us our meds when it was time to take meds. After all, we didn't have watches. Some exceptions were allowed EXACTLY the same as MKP in the 30+ trainings I have attended, certain meds like inhalers men keep with them. We ate about 300 calories a day and drank water only. Again, mainstream, 100's of millions of members in these religions.

Would you care to directly name those 'mainstream religions' so that we are clear on which one's we are discussing? Having been on several Catholic Retreats and also Unitarian/Univeralist and Buddhist Retreats have [u:ca4e1f0e03]Never[/u:ca4e1f0e03] experienced any removal of any property from my being, or an inspection of my bags or a pat down. 300 callories and water.. Hmm. That is not very healthy, and if that was again something that was regulated by the retreat it self, then I would have to question if it was mainstream, and perhaps not working in the mind control/brainwashing.. Mr. Ross.. Are you here?

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Whoops, one last thing. I cannot be responsible for what someone says they found somewhere on the internet. I simply KNOW that some of the stuff in the messages I've read is nonsense, someone has deliberately changed the words OR someone else did and you downloaded incorrect data.

Can you please point exactly to that "incorrect data" or "changed words." you speak of? That way we can be sure we are clear of what we speak. If you have a copy of the training manual for MKP, perhaps you will be willing to let others see it, or somone such as Mr. Ross Verify it again another copy.

The few people I've spoken with, who I trust to tell the truth, have all said these accounts are pretty accurate. I think there are quite a few people here who know of some sort of professional recommendation to the weekend, yet nowhere on the MKP website are there any professional endorsements, nor can anyone produce any signed edorsements. If the registered psychologist in this area I know of who is recommending the weekend (without first even assessing a person) would put his name and title on a letter to the local paper, and endorse the weekend, I would trust the source alot more than I do. As it is, saying you know of a guy, or have heard of people, is nothing more than an unsubstantitated lie, and may actually hurt the attempt at credibility you seek.

I know 6 men who are Judges around the States who have taken the NWTA and I know directly of two men being "ordered" and probably another dozen second hand. "Ordering" treatment as I understand it is always an either/or or several option process and the man chooses one of the options. So far, the ones I know about are related to anger management and family courts.

The release signed by the staff and the attendees is pretty standard, I've signed them for EVERY personal growth workshop I've ever done, also professional development workshops I've done as well. I started in Canada and we have different versions all over the world depending on the local laws, our insurance carrier requires them.

I don't know for sure about the nuances you point out about 'endorsing', I do know that at least 20% of all men who have attended where told about the NWTA by their therapist. Probably another 10 - 15% are 12 steppers and here about us through that system. I have staffed Weekends where half the men were sent by their therapist. We have a committee including a couple of lawyers who try to keep up with new laws and occasionally we have to adjust the releases we use.

For me, the Weekend was an education and some of the processes where quite wierd the first time I saw them, but since then I have seen every single one of the processes somewhere else done by therapists, NLP facilitators, at men's gatherings, couples gatherings and others. No big deal now but at the time it was very different then the silent retreats I did years before.

When I lived in Canada (Western), we attracted Cree Indians, cowboys, farmers, doctors, University profs and I've never known anyone who reacted badly to the Weekend. There was a problem ESPECIALLY with wimpy guys who suddenly thought they grew a set and they would suddenly be more aggressive and some women were not pleased. Honestly, I've talked to many therapists who have had exactly the same problem once they got their patient's to stand up for themselves. And again, let's be frank, some women liked to be the boss and some of those relationships ended.

My experience is the vast majority of women partners and sisters and mothers were happy with the man's new disposition and new communication skills.

Anyway, thanks for the questions
GFTR99

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bigboyx5
GFTR99, when you say Judges have ordered attendance at these "educational" weekends, are you absolutely sure of this? I've spoken to the complaints director for the psychological governing body, and though their ethics code does not cover the groups themselves, any psychologist who recommends the weekend is in fact endorsing it. Why this is important is because NWTA makes you sign a waiver stating they are not responsible for any negative effects, however when a trained professional endorses the weekend, their insurance may now be in effect. Pretty beneficial to the NWTA, don't you think. I would think it's a safe bet that a judge would be under similar constraints?

I hear time and time again from those involved in the MKP that they call it therapy, yet the official literature states point blank this is a compliment not replacement for conventional therapy.

Wow, trial by blog, interesting...

My wife couldn't care less about commenting, she is a high powered executive with a major airline and has better things to do with her time. I asked, she looked at your post for a moment and said "no thanks, my words won't make any difference".

We both had a good laugh over the "allow" statement, thanks for that!

Re Divorces... there was research done (and is ongoing) and actually we are below the divorce average, and I'm sorry that things went negatively for you.

You are right about the guilty part, I damn well better feel guilty if I screwed up! I was referring to independent moods but I wasn't clear. She suffers from migraines and travels so much that I willingly cater to her when she's home...which sometimes makes her feel guilty... you probably know how that goes! :?

Sorry about using such strong language like "bizarre" but the word fits for me. I have no clue how these materials became basterdized AND I also said some of them are difficult to judge without the larger context. I would agree with you that they 'sound' strange isolated like that. I freely admit in my last post that I thought some of the stuff was weird when I went through in 1992. I've staffed so many since then that I've lost some of my awareness of how odd some of it sounds. I should be more aware because I use lots of the techniques in my consulting practise and often even the mildest of techniques can blow a group away. I've learned over the years to introduce the processes very carefully in corporate surroundings.

Let's see what else? I am just getting used to blogging, I lost several last week when I timed out. Is there a way to do this differently?

Oh the judges. I will have to ask some of them, I have no idea what the consequence of taking this from a comment to a detailed citation. Sorry, that's the best I can do for you at the moment and I will be away in Asia with my wife for a few weeks. And they may say no to your request in which case you'll have to choose whether or not to simply believe me.

Google an article that appeared in an Australian publication a few years ago, a judge talked about sending men to the NWTA there, it's a fleeting memory but check that out.

Finally, your husband was 'angrier'. Was that his challenge before the Weekend? Was he an angry man or was he quiet? All I can say or do in a public forum is to tell you this feedback hits me to my core. I wish we could do it right every time and that every man 'gets it' the same way I did.

Professional psychologists and Psychiatrists have assured me that this form of education about emotions, beliefs and reactions is dangerous ground to tread on. Unfortunately, many professionals in the biz use drugs to moderate these possible reactions and you know how many people believe that these professionals overdrug their patients. It's a tough challenge. Some men come to the Weekend all 'bottled up' and it's only 48 hours and the I-groups are NOT supposed to replace therapy. Some men lie about their pre-existing conditions and HIPPA laws don't allow us to do any investigation.

Sadly I do hear that some men go into a weird funked out zone and become abusive or reclusive. I have a very good friend who that happened to and his wife went through another different form of hell (he was not great to live with before) and it took him two years to get it. He simply had lived his life for everyone else for so long that it took him years to 'grow up' and finally become a full partner in his marriage and parent to his many children and boss to his employees. This man is a high powered and world reknowned physician.

I have no idea how we could have predicted this and there was no way in the world that this man would ever allow himself to get psychological treatment. He was a little boy acting out like a God and he had more money than God. The only reason he went was because I used to play Rugby with him and I told him he wouldn't be able to last the 48 hours.

Anyway, it finally worked out but it was a struggle. Sometimes people want instant results and life just doesn't work out that way.

The upside is that wife saw me last year for the first time since I moved to the States 6 years ago. She hugged me like I was a long lost brother and her husband actually had a tear in his eye! Life is good and we all enjoyed my daughter's wedding together.

Later and I'll say a prayer tonight for all the women who were sideswiped and the men who simply didn't respond well...
GFTR99

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ginah

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I've read outright lies and confusing interpretations with cute little comments. Someone has deliberately changed the words OR someone else did and you downloaded incorrect data.

This is interesting GFT99, my husband has been to the NWTA and I-Groups, he has read this manual, he says that it is fairly right on as to what took place on the weekend. Is he lying to me? Or is he misinterpreting what he went through compared to what he is reading? Hmmm, or maybe he is just creating his own reality?

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My wife has never cared AT ALL that there are parts of the training that I don't talk about.

I request that you “allow” your wife to share her thoughts and opinions on this site herself.

Quote

bizarre interpretation of the Weekend

Interesting statement, bizarre? Our opinions have come from our experiences. Are you telling us that we are imagining our experiences? That we are lying about our experiences? Or that our reality is…….misinterpreted?

Quote

Do we have divorces. Yes...at about the same level as the general public... which surprised.

What proof do you have that the divorces within MKP is at the same level as the general public? Scientific data? Studies? Or just your opinion?

Quote

Judges have ordered men to take the NWTA as an anger management tool.

Show me where this has happened; give me the name of the judges who have done so that I can research this for myself. Otherwise you are just “I will use your words here” saying outright lies and confusing interpretations with cute little comments.

MY experience showed me that NWTA made my husband a far angrier person than he had ever been before. So, that can be “interpreted” any way you like.

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I also stopped feeling guilty or angry if she was in a bad mood.

I agree, if your wife is just in a bad mood that has nothing to do with you, then you should not feel guilty, but if she is feeling pain at something you have said/done then you should feel guilty. It sounds like you do not respect your wife. You, are a secret keeper.

AA - "Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth"

... for one

To the 'sleep deprivation', there is an actual medical definition for that and we don't come close, by a long shot.

Use of facilities is often a man's own interpretation and his unwillingness to stand up for himself. Other than a few moments here and there where silence and participation is pretty important, men use the bathroom whenever they want. Many times I've had a man ask me why I "let" that other guy go and I never have any answer that makes any sense other than "you didn't speak up". We clearly say at the beginning, if you need to go, simply tell one of the staffmen. We don't say 'ask' but many men 'hear that' and often that is part of the reason they came to the Weekend. They 'hear' obligation where there is none and it affects their life deeply!

Fees for I-Groups? Where did you read that? Some places rent rooms and the men share that.

There is an organized process soon after the Weekend that some centers charge $100, it involves 8-10 single nights for 8 - 10 weeks (one night a week) and it is facilitated by an experienced man.

To the retreat. It was a Roman Catholic retreat, and we had a choice of fasting or the 300 calories (my guess on the 300, it was like 5 almonds and a few pieces of fruit eaten very slowly in a ritualistic manner). It was in Northern Canada 30 years ago, I can't remember the name.

Notice your judgment, "That's not very healthy". Then I guess fasting isn't either but it's practiced all over the world by everything from mainstream to wacko groups. Doctors suggest fasting etc etc. My bigger point is your fast judgment and predilection to throw in words like "mind-control".

As far as taking away stuff, it's for two reasons. One so that the OCD types and those whose stuff is way too important to them get to experience something different. The other and PRIMARY reason is safety. I've confiscated guns, other weapons and lots and lots of illegal drugs which we have a very strict legal protocol to deal with that. How has that become an object of supposed abuse? Sorry, but I truly don't get how this has become convoluted other then the fact that we do it in a theatrical and "just the facts" manner.

Finally, I’m not going to spend the time dissecting what’s right or wrong as you requested, if you don’t believe me, so be it. I offer my experience, I found this blog completely by accident when I was searching if an email was a hoax and as I flashed through the Google results I saw ‘MKP’ and ‘cult’ in a summery and I clicked on it. I’m not a blogger and I’ve already spent way too much time on this today.

Later
GFTR99

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NotOneOfThem
First off GFT99, nice to see another person on the board. I'm hoping you'll engage in some honest discussion with us. However, it seems you are starting off with some assumptions....

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And it's somewhat overwhelming; I've read partial lists posted, I've read outright lies and confusing interpretations with cute little comments. I couldn't possibly undo the bizarre interpretation of the Weekend and the group that y'all have formed.

I think of AA and some of its traditions and then the many 'quips' they use and without context they would seem highly insulting and invasive.

Keep in mind that at least I claim to have experience in both AA, and MKP, having been one of the first people to leave a NTWA, telling Bill Kauth Himself that I was leaving. My interpretations are based on that experience as well as having the actual training manual in hand.

I'm curious, though it is off topic, what in AA you would see qualifies as insulting and invasive.

Quote

I'm a normal guy who enjoys the heck out of MKP. I have been to over 50 graduations and NOT ONE was high pressure like a Landmark event. And the numbers are so much smaller than Landmark, Sterling and many other of the gatherings mentionned.

I'll grant you that perhaps there is less pressure from MKP as far as providing continual financial support for it's projects than Landmark etc. However, the initial training methods are very similar in some of the more edgy ways that puts MKP in a suspect area of brainwashing.. Sleep Deprivation, deprivation or pressure regarding use of restroom facilities and so on. There is information elsewhere on this site to that effect.

Quote

My wife and I travel extensively and we have dropped in on Warrior brothers and Women within grads all over the world and no one is living in a cult, no one is titihing although many pay membership dues far less than Lions or Rotary, many pay nothing after their Weekend.

But, do those who pay nothing continue to participate in things such as the I-groups? The website and publications all state a fee for those portions of the program.

Quote

On the subject of taking away personal possesions. I have been to two mainstream religious retreats where when we arrived, we were told to put aside all but very basic clothes, toothbrush and toothpaste, one comb or brush, all makeup was removed, ALL reading material, all electronics (although this was 25 years ago), watches etc AND all drugs. We were well taken care of in the sense that a silent man found us and brought us our meds when it was time to take meds. After all, we didn't have watches. Some exceptions were allowed EXACTLY the same as MKP in the 30+ trainings I have attended, certain meds like inhalers men keep with them. We ate about 300 calories a day and drank water only. Again, mainstream, 100's of millions of members in these religions.

Would you care to directly name those 'mainstream religions' so that we are clear on which one's we are discussing? Having been on several Catholic Retreats and also Unitarian/Univeralist and Buddhist Retreats have [u:88329b95de]Never[/u:88329b95de] experienced any removal of any property from my being, or an inspection of my bags or a pat down. 300 callories and water.. Hmm. That is not very healthy, and if that was again something that was regulated by the retreat it self, then I would have to question if it was mainstream, and perhaps not working in the mind control/brainwashing.. Mr. Ross.. Are you here?

Quote

Whoops, one last thing. I cannot be responsible for what someone says they found somewhere on the internet. I simply KNOW that some of the stuff in the messages I've read is nonsense, someone has deliberately changed the words OR someone else did and you downloaded incorrect data.

Can you please point exactly to that "incorrect data" or "changed words." you speak of? That way we can be sure we are clear of what we speak. If you have a copy of the training manual for MKP, perhaps you will be willing to let others see it, or somone such as Mr. Ross Verify it again another copy.

That was a very detailed and well written post, thank you for taking the time to avoid the knee jerk reaction. Since the men were ordered to take the "treatment" not an educational weekend, and you know them personally, could you provide some concrete details. I think a man of integrity would step up and post the names of those involved. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't trial decisions public domain. like I said earlier stating "I know" without proof is worthless.

Who is doing the ongoing divorce study? I'd like to hear some more about the Cree who have attended, since I have a few "niichii' in the first nations, specifically what they thought of the symbolism etc.