Mankind project
Posted by:
sonsio
()
Date: February 26, 2007 12:33PM
Ginah and NotOneOfThem,
When NotOneOfThem felt compelled to not adhere to his word and share the experience for reasons he has expressed, I did not criticize him for that, in fact I thanked him for sharing something that meant a lot to him. I do not have the issues NotOneOfThem voiced, and believe it is right to hold to my word to keep the experience of the NWTA weekend part of a mystery. We both are acting from what we believe the right thing to do. And yet you criticize me for it and accuse me of acting from shadow and being out of integrity.
Regarding many of the follow-up questions on NWTA and criticisms of the technique in the last couple of postings for me. I'm not here to defend the NTWA weekend nor to justify each of the steps, I have posted primarily because some of the negative depictions and actions have not been my experience of NWTA and I wanted to provide an alternate voice to the thread. As the questions delve deeper into the weekend experience, they begin to touch upon things I agreed to keep as part of the mystery. You've both posted that you "expected that" and question my integrity, so I will offer that I have been open and clear about what I would communicate and have done my best to convey where my experience differed from others and how. Such as, while NotOneOfThem complains of being manhandled, I have said numerous times that I was not. While NotOneOfThem depicts yelling, I agreed and said that I experienced that, but none of it personal attacks. While it may not be what you want, I hope it has helped to some degree.
NotOneOfThem, you mentioned an alternative type of weekend experience, Silent Retreat, and asked me what reason NWTA can justify for not using similar techniques. I honor that you have done such a healing thing for others and suggest that if it fit perfectly for everyone, then there would be no need for other types of weekends, experiences, or groups. But as you probably know, what works for one person, may not work for another. And, indeed, the technique or experience may or may not work depending upon the place the very same person is in their life, they may not be ready to hear something. Does your Silent Retreat have the same results for all that attend? I don't justify why NTWA is setup the way it is, I do say that it worked for me at the right time and I've seen it work for other men and not for some.
As I've said in previous posts, the MKP experience has been and continues to be a positive thing for me. While there have been many postings on this thread I did not agree with, I am thankful for this thread for it has exposed experiences that people have had with MKP that I, as a man, would not like to see in my MKP community, and am on the lookout for that.
Thank you for your posts and questions. They have been helpful to me.
When NotOneOfThem felt compelled to not adhere to his word and share the experience for reasons he has expressed, I did not criticize him for that, in fact I thanked him for sharing something that meant a lot to him. I do not have the issues NotOneOfThem voiced, and believe it is right to hold to my word to keep the experience of the NWTA weekend part of a mystery. We both are acting from what we believe the right thing to do. And yet you criticize me for it and accuse me of acting from shadow and being out of integrity.
Regarding many of the follow-up questions on NWTA and criticisms of the technique in the last couple of postings for me. I'm not here to defend the NTWA weekend nor to justify each of the steps, I have posted primarily because some of the negative depictions and actions have not been my experience of NWTA and I wanted to provide an alternate voice to the thread. As the questions delve deeper into the weekend experience, they begin to touch upon things I agreed to keep as part of the mystery. You've both posted that you "expected that" and question my integrity, so I will offer that I have been open and clear about what I would communicate and have done my best to convey where my experience differed from others and how. Such as, while NotOneOfThem complains of being manhandled, I have said numerous times that I was not. While NotOneOfThem depicts yelling, I agreed and said that I experienced that, but none of it personal attacks. While it may not be what you want, I hope it has helped to some degree.
NotOneOfThem, you mentioned an alternative type of weekend experience, Silent Retreat, and asked me what reason NWTA can justify for not using similar techniques. I honor that you have done such a healing thing for others and suggest that if it fit perfectly for everyone, then there would be no need for other types of weekends, experiences, or groups. But as you probably know, what works for one person, may not work for another. And, indeed, the technique or experience may or may not work depending upon the place the very same person is in their life, they may not be ready to hear something. Does your Silent Retreat have the same results for all that attend? I don't justify why NTWA is setup the way it is, I do say that it worked for me at the right time and I've seen it work for other men and not for some.
As I've said in previous posts, the MKP experience has been and continues to be a positive thing for me. While there have been many postings on this thread I did not agree with, I am thankful for this thread for it has exposed experiences that people have had with MKP that I, as a man, would not like to see in my MKP community, and am on the lookout for that.
Thank you for your posts and questions. They have been helpful to me.
Mankind project
Posted by:
Joe1
()
Date: February 26, 2007 05:49PM
Dear Bigboyx5,
My suggestion to you is that you talk to your wife about her purpose on participating on WWI. Really listen to her and see what it is that keeps bringing her back to this support network.
If you do that rather then listen to the hype and paranoia on forums such as this I expect you will get a clearer idea of the value which brings her back again and again.
Look at the stats, there is a small hardcore minority on forums such as this who view the MKP as something sinister or destructive then there are the thousands of people who participate in the courses every year around the world and get massive value from it…
MKP is not illegal in any way shape or form. If it is then hell man, tell them so they can bring themselves inline. They have had policemen, politicians, sportstars go through the NWTA, do you reckon they would do this if it was illegal or if it had no value for them?
MKP is motivated by a desire to support men by helping them to face some of their deepest fears. If you don’t believe this why not find out for yourself by talking to men about what they got from it, I did.
There are often people from 12 step programs there, why don’t you ask one of these guys like I have what he got from coming to the NWTA. The strength, insight, support and guidance on breaking through his destructive patterns was what I saw and heard... The result, a better quality of life according to the guys who have been through it.
If you have concerns around professional ethics have you tried asking? :wink:
Check my thread on my own experience which got closed as it wasn’t “different enough”:
[board.culteducation.com]
Some of what I got from my experience with MKP:
Developed a closer relationship with my Dad,
See how common a lot of problems are for other men,
Develop a more healthy relationship with my anger and sadness and learn how to express it and how in the mainstream men often believe it is wrong to express such emotions,
I’ve learnt a bit more about the Mens movement, (http://www.manhood.com.au/)
I’ve learnt to receive better and receive close support from other men on personal and emotional issues,
I’ve learnt how to better support other men,
Can you begin to imagine how valuable this is to me? It is immeasurable.
What did I lose out on? Nothing as far as Im aware, it was tough at some points on the weekend but nothing I couldn’t handle. A couple of guys decided they had had enough and left. They weren’t stopped.
I grow weary of bringing these messages to the forum. My only suggestion it that you take the steps to find out for yourself the truth… Express your concerns to those you criticise. Listen carefully to their response, judge for yourself then given real data. It might not be right for you, fair enough, but at least do your wife the honour of getting a second opinion. It sounds to me like she is getting something very valuable out of her time with WWI.
Lossa love,
Joseph :)
PS feel free to buzz over any questions to me, I am not a leader with this work but I am willing to offer my opinion if it is of value to you.
PPS I hope my post is not too heavy, I just find it tough seeing collusion and criticism of something which has been so valuable to me.
My suggestion to you is that you talk to your wife about her purpose on participating on WWI. Really listen to her and see what it is that keeps bringing her back to this support network.
If you do that rather then listen to the hype and paranoia on forums such as this I expect you will get a clearer idea of the value which brings her back again and again.
Look at the stats, there is a small hardcore minority on forums such as this who view the MKP as something sinister or destructive then there are the thousands of people who participate in the courses every year around the world and get massive value from it…
MKP is not illegal in any way shape or form. If it is then hell man, tell them so they can bring themselves inline. They have had policemen, politicians, sportstars go through the NWTA, do you reckon they would do this if it was illegal or if it had no value for them?
MKP is motivated by a desire to support men by helping them to face some of their deepest fears. If you don’t believe this why not find out for yourself by talking to men about what they got from it, I did.
There are often people from 12 step programs there, why don’t you ask one of these guys like I have what he got from coming to the NWTA. The strength, insight, support and guidance on breaking through his destructive patterns was what I saw and heard... The result, a better quality of life according to the guys who have been through it.
If you have concerns around professional ethics have you tried asking? :wink:
Check my thread on my own experience which got closed as it wasn’t “different enough”:
[board.culteducation.com]
Some of what I got from my experience with MKP:
Developed a closer relationship with my Dad,
See how common a lot of problems are for other men,
Develop a more healthy relationship with my anger and sadness and learn how to express it and how in the mainstream men often believe it is wrong to express such emotions,
I’ve learnt a bit more about the Mens movement, (http://www.manhood.com.au/)
I’ve learnt to receive better and receive close support from other men on personal and emotional issues,
I’ve learnt how to better support other men,
Can you begin to imagine how valuable this is to me? It is immeasurable.
What did I lose out on? Nothing as far as Im aware, it was tough at some points on the weekend but nothing I couldn’t handle. A couple of guys decided they had had enough and left. They weren’t stopped.
I grow weary of bringing these messages to the forum. My only suggestion it that you take the steps to find out for yourself the truth… Express your concerns to those you criticise. Listen carefully to their response, judge for yourself then given real data. It might not be right for you, fair enough, but at least do your wife the honour of getting a second opinion. It sounds to me like she is getting something very valuable out of her time with WWI.
Lossa love,
Joseph :)
PS feel free to buzz over any questions to me, I am not a leader with this work but I am willing to offer my opinion if it is of value to you.
PPS I hope my post is not too heavy, I just find it tough seeing collusion and criticism of something which has been so valuable to me.
Mankind project
Posted by:
S_Byers666
()
Date: February 26, 2007 08:59PM
Quote
ginah
bigboyx5, I hope things work out for you. I am not aware of any MKP/Woman Within forums that are open to the public. I do remember finding some info quite a while ago on yagoogroups. Search MKP/NWTA etc. Those forums now seem to be closed, or the ones open don't have much on them.
The ex-mkp forum on Yahoo groups is fairly active.
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 26, 2007 10:42PM
Joe1 is just here as an apologist for MKP.
There is no hard objective research to support any of his claims about MKP. Instead, he offers anecdotal stories and his subjective experience.
The many complaints about mass marathon training groups like MKP is acually quite substantial. And many have been sued over personal injuries.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Anyone seriously interested in finding out more about MKP should review all the posts at this message board thread. Start at the beginning and read the manual notes excerpts posted at the message board, which are very telling. These notes demonstrate how manipulative an MKP weekend is and how carefully scripted every word and action is for its leaders.
There is no hard objective research to support any of his claims about MKP. Instead, he offers anecdotal stories and his subjective experience.
The many complaints about mass marathon training groups like MKP is acually quite substantial. And many have been sued over personal injuries.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Anyone seriously interested in finding out more about MKP should review all the posts at this message board thread. Start at the beginning and read the manual notes excerpts posted at the message board, which are very telling. These notes demonstrate how manipulative an MKP weekend is and how carefully scripted every word and action is for its leaders.
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 26, 2007 11:19PM
Sonsio:
The pattern of your posts is becoming quite redundant.
You are apparently not willing to seriously examine what is wrong with MKP, but rather tend to dismiss complaints as only relevant to the each person and not the program design and inherent dynamics.
"MKP is not for everyone," and/or "that's not my experience" seem to be your repeated refrains, which you have posted here several times.
And you said previously that you could find nothing of consequence wrong with the MKP program as desinged.
All this, despite the program manual notes excerpted on this thread, which demonstrate what is wrong with MKP, i.e. it is hightly manipulative and contrived to control people and essentially force an "experience."
There really is no mystery. Anyone can read the excerpted manual notes posted on this thread with corresponding analysis and research links.
OK. So have heard your apologies and testimonials extolling MKP over and over again.
Do you have anything else to say?
Can we move on now?
The pattern of your posts is becoming quite redundant.
You are apparently not willing to seriously examine what is wrong with MKP, but rather tend to dismiss complaints as only relevant to the each person and not the program design and inherent dynamics.
"MKP is not for everyone," and/or "that's not my experience" seem to be your repeated refrains, which you have posted here several times.
And you said previously that you could find nothing of consequence wrong with the MKP program as desinged.
All this, despite the program manual notes excerpted on this thread, which demonstrate what is wrong with MKP, i.e. it is hightly manipulative and contrived to control people and essentially force an "experience."
There really is no mystery. Anyone can read the excerpted manual notes posted on this thread with corresponding analysis and research links.
OK. So have heard your apologies and testimonials extolling MKP over and over again.
Do you have anything else to say?
Can we move on now?
Mankind project
Posted by:
bigboyx5
()
Date: February 26, 2007 11:59PM
Sonsio, Joe1 etc. I was first formally approached a few months ago, I have spent that time reading every available bit of info on this group (and taken notes). In the absence of physical evidence (which can be nither + or -), one must default to personal experiences. When examining the accounts I've noted several recurring patterns, themes and manipulations, these then formed the basis of my thoughts. Finally last week I formed my own opinion of the group. It's dangerous and want nothing to do with it. I have bookmarked several threads on this and other forums, and have shared my opinion with my wife. We are disagreeing on the groups, but that is her choice as an adult and I willl respect it, provided I sense no danger to any member of my household. I asked her not to have any discussions with the group for 90 days (I said discussions, since avoiding her family would be unfair and impractical). She said the WWI breaks for the summer, so I will be watching closely to verify this, though I suspect I know the answer.
Yesterday was to be a B-day dinner at my in-laws for my wife. However a few hours before we left, her father phoned telling us to hurry up because the NWTA forms were waiting. I wish she hadn't but she told him of my decision. I would have liked to see his spontaneous response instead of one that may have been prepared. Anyone that knows me knows when I have made an important decision, it's almost impossible to change my mind and aggression just sets my place. So what happened was they did the soft sell approach, it caught me off guard, but I had made a promise to my wife to be civil and decline to give answers (I did just that). "I know you're scared, at first I was scared to be in the group, now I'm scared when I'm away from my brothers" I was also told this was a mistake and this is "the best thing I'd ever do with my life". My children were nearby as was my wife, that didn't work. After a few minutes of pressuring me, I tried to drop the subject, no luck. Finally my wife stepped in a changed the subject (now I remember why I love her so much), despite her feelings on the weekend. One of the things that troubles me is the fact that a licensed mental health provider is actively leading and referring patients to these weekends. I'm going to do some more research on the ethics.
I would challenge any member of the MKP to provide the names and opinions of all psychologists in their group. If the weekeds are as benign(sp) as they claim, this should have no repercussions for the indiviuals.
So no, if the MKP is unwilling or unable to provide imperical evidence on their weekends, the opinions of others must be the deciding factor. Sorry Sonsio and Joe1, but that's the way mature (and empowered) adults make decisions.
Yesterday was to be a B-day dinner at my in-laws for my wife. However a few hours before we left, her father phoned telling us to hurry up because the NWTA forms were waiting. I wish she hadn't but she told him of my decision. I would have liked to see his spontaneous response instead of one that may have been prepared. Anyone that knows me knows when I have made an important decision, it's almost impossible to change my mind and aggression just sets my place. So what happened was they did the soft sell approach, it caught me off guard, but I had made a promise to my wife to be civil and decline to give answers (I did just that). "I know you're scared, at first I was scared to be in the group, now I'm scared when I'm away from my brothers" I was also told this was a mistake and this is "the best thing I'd ever do with my life". My children were nearby as was my wife, that didn't work. After a few minutes of pressuring me, I tried to drop the subject, no luck. Finally my wife stepped in a changed the subject (now I remember why I love her so much), despite her feelings on the weekend. One of the things that troubles me is the fact that a licensed mental health provider is actively leading and referring patients to these weekends. I'm going to do some more research on the ethics.
I would challenge any member of the MKP to provide the names and opinions of all psychologists in their group. If the weekeds are as benign(sp) as they claim, this should have no repercussions for the indiviuals.
So no, if the MKP is unwilling or unable to provide imperical evidence on their weekends, the opinions of others must be the deciding factor. Sorry Sonsio and Joe1, but that's the way mature (and empowered) adults make decisions.
Mankind project
Posted by:
NotOneOfThem
()
Date: February 27, 2007 05:44AM
QuoteQuote
sonsio
Ginah and NotOneOfThem,
When NotOneOfThem felt compelled to not adhere to his word and share the experience for reasons he has expressed, I did not criticize him for that, in fact I thanked him for sharing something that meant a lot to him. I do not have the issues NotOneOfThem voiced, and believe it is right to hold to my word to keep the experience of the NWTA weekend part of a mystery. We both are acting from what we believe the right thing to do. And yet you criticize me for it and accuse me of acting from shadow and being out of integrity.
Sonsio
What I am finding remarkable is your lack of answering direct questions about items that are public knowledge as posted here on this Forum and other places. I asked you to explain how putting someone in a dark room for hours was empowerment, and you state you will not explain steps in the process. Evasive answer. Could you at least answer that for me? (Perhaps I've asked too many questions in a post and they are being lost in the text.)Quote
Regarding many of the follow-up questions on NWTA and criticisms of the technique in the last couple of postings for me. I'm not here to defend the NTWA weekend nor to justify each of the steps, I have posted primarily because some of the negative depictions and actions have not been my experience of NWTA and I wanted to provide an alternate voice to the thread. As the questions delve deeper into the weekend experience, they begin to touch upon things I agreed to keep as part of the mystery.
Soncio, if you plan to post some positive reflections on 'negative depictions' posted here, then you need to be forthcoming about them and explain them to us. A vague answer does not put any positive light on them instead, at least to me, makes them more sinister and thus the MKP more so. Your alternative voice is not resounding. Telling us that you had a positive experince with the weekend is just not enough. We are asking direct questions about specific events of a weekend, and your answers have become 'because I said so.' in tone. It just does not cut it if you are trying to change a viewpoint.
I asked, and I did not read an answer as to why the 'mystery' is needed for the weekend.
<Snip>Quote
NotOneOfThem, you mentioned an alternative type of weekend experience, Silent Retreat, and asked me what reason NWTA can justify for not using similar techniques. I honor that you have done such a healing thing for others and suggest that if it fit perfectly for everyone, then there would be no need for other types of weekends, experiences, or groups. But as you probably know, what works for one person, may not work for another. And, indeed, the technique or experience may or may not work depending upon the place the very same person is in their life, they may not be ready to hear something. Does your Silent Retreat have the same results for all that attend? I don't justify why NTWA is setup the way it is, I do say that it worked for me at the right time and I've seen it work for other men and not for some.
My reason for mentioning the silent retreat was to illustrate that healing, processing and so on can be done without the need for hostility, inspections, lack of trust and so on as I see depicted by NWTA/MKP weekends. (Just to keep it in context.. you are wandering away from that.)Quote
Does your Silent Retreat have the same results for all that attend?
The answer that, I am proud to say is no, it is not the same result for everyone, but, I guess that would depend on what you define as result. MKP advertises a result, "Initiation into manhood." and "Living without Apology" and frankly, that is concerning and to me a sign of the problem. Landmark Education, about the same level as MKP on the 'cult' scale as I see it, also advertises a result.
When the retreat is at it's last stage, we offer a time for each person to speak about the weekend, if they wish. No one is compelled to do so, and some choose not to. Those who do speak of insight or healing gained or simple experiences they had that help them to appreciate something. We do not expect, or advertise any result will happen. But, by letting people be people, it does.
As I've said in previous posts, the MKP experience has been and continues to be a positive thing for me. While there have been many postings on this thread I did not agree with, I am thankful for this thread for it has exposed experiences that people have had with MKP that I, as a man, would not like to see in my MKP community, and am on the lookout for that.
Mankind project
Posted by:
NotOneOfThem
()
Date: February 27, 2007 06:06AM
Quote
My wife is still very active in the WWI community and is actively recruiting. My father in-law and his wife seem genuinely happy in their marriage. Given the MKP's apparent dogma of "F@#k the B!@#h" etc and WWI's seeming empowerment of women, how is it the two groups co-exist? Out of respect for her, I have not tried to acces the WWI's forums, nor the MKP's boards, but the content is something I would like to verify. are there any public message boards for these two groups or any way to access them legally?
WWI and MKP seem to be able to co-exist because as one woman told my wife, (She is a WWI grad), "She's a bitch and proud of it." and so, there would be no conflict there.
I would advise you to read with great care the items listed on this forum for details on what takes place on a MKP weekend. Things are not too different on a WWI weekend, from my understanding. Both groups are non disclosing.
Quote
On a related note, how many members of AA approximately compose this group? Here it seems like a disproportionately high number. Is this a target group because of their pre-disposition? My wife and I have in the past attended a counsellor for marital problems. I don't believe our particular counsellor is a member, however, his partner in the business is a very active member and is the contact for the forms etc. Being a professional psychologist is this a breech of any professional ethics?
One of the founders of MKP was a guy from here in Milwaukee named Bill Kauth. He is a Psychiatrist.
Some interviews and articles about him.
[www.menstuff.org]
[www.sacredlifeboats.com]
(note the term Lifeboats... this came from EST)
Lastly, I have decided to post a letter to the editor in the local paper(s), however I would like to include various links to enable individuals to read and decide for themselves as the NWTA training weekend is fast approaching and the recruitment drive is speeding up. Does anyone have any other links besides the MKP, WWI's main boards, this forum and a few searches? I've chosen to discount the yahoo groups as the seperate biases are evident.
Perhaps these help you.
[www.phinnweb.org]
A paper on brainwashing
[www.havenministry.com]
Article on the NWAW and a religious view of it.
Quote
I apoligize for the length of this post, but I ahve so many questions and concerns about this group and its methods, I'm actually losing sleep over my wife's involvement.
I understand your anxiety about this. I was very close to the person I called "M" in my essay about the weekend (See other posts on the pages before this one.) and following my experience, I did some research on cults and mind control. I saw how M and I were no longer able to talk as we had before because in his words "I didn't get it." I lost him as my friend and I didn't have resources such as this to turn to.
Lastly, I admire your courage to not be swayed into attending such a weekend on the simple advise of someone else. Look before you leap is the old saying, and I think it hold true. More so when you are going to put your life into the hands of someone else.
Someone may say that it is working for them, but, well, so do the people who had given their life over to groups such as the Branch Davidians, Scientology and others. Later, when folks like Mr. Ross help them see a way out, they realize it was just a bad idea.
I do wish you well, please stay on here and converse with us!
Mankind project
Posted by:
NotOneOfThem
()
Date: February 27, 2007 07:32AM
Quote
My suggestion to you is that you talk to your wife about her purpose on participating on WWI. Really listen to her and see what it is that keeps bringing her back to this support network.
If you do that rather then listen to the hype and paranoia on forums such as this I expect you will get a clearer idea of the value which brings her back again and again.
hype and paranoia - Interesting selection of works, perhaps you will be willing to answer the questions I have asked of Soncio and bring MKP out of the darkness and into the light of public scrutiny. Such cover brings only questions as to the validity of the group and it's methods.
Quote
Look at the stats, there is a small hardcore minority on forums such as this who view the MKP as something sinister or destructive then there are the thousands of people who participate in the courses every year around the world and get massive value from it…
You know, there are many other people who are just not online, but have an opinion against shadowy groups such as MKP. Yet, MKP folks continue to refuse even direct questions asked. Even when asked by someone who experienced parts of the weekend.
Quote
MKP is not illegal in any way shape or form. If it is then hell man, tell them so they can bring themselves inline. They have had policemen, politicians, sportstars go through the NWTA, do you reckon they would do this if it was illegal or if it had no value for them?
A lot of groups function and continue to do so, even with questions raised about the validity of the group or it's work. Landmark Education comes to mind as one such group. Their methods are called into question and they are currently experiencing several legal problems, and yet, they continue to operate. I'm not thinking that anyone from MKP is ready to change the way they operate or disclose. In fact, they threatened this site with a lawsuit for publication of the weekend training manual. (I'm waiting for mine since I have published my detailed account of the weekend both here and on a blog I run.)
Quote
MKP is motivated by a desire to support men by helping them to face some of their deepest fears. If you don’t believe this why not find out for yourself by talking to men about what they got from it, I did.
Again, questions are being asked, and the answers are vague and not really answers. For example, why is a man made to stand in a darkened room for hours at the start of the weekend? What is the purpose of that? Will you deny it is part of the weekend? Why the seaches and harsh treatment at the start? I'm asking direct questions, will you give [i:18c7832f08]me[/i:18c7832f08] direct answers?
Quote
There are often people from 12 step programs there, why don’t you ask one of these guys like I have what he got from coming to the NWTA. The strength, insight, support and guidance on breaking through his destructive patterns was what I saw and heard... The result, a better quality of life according to the guys who have been through it.
Are you familiar with the term "Switching Addictions"?
Quote
If you have concerns around professional ethics have you tried asking? :wink:
Speaking for myself, my experince has been that questions asked of MKP do not get direct answers.
Not meaning to get personal, but perhaps something you did not learn on the weekend is that their is no such word as "learnt'.. learned would be the word I think you are looking for.Quote
I’ve learnt how to better support other men,
Quote
What did I lose out on? Nothing as far as Im aware, it was tough at some points on the weekend but nothing I couldn’t handle. A couple of guys decided they had had enough and left. They weren’t stopped.
Not stopped. Please explain that to me, with some detail. Did they simply return to their rooms, (Had they even been shown to rooms?) take their bags and leave. In my case I was set up with a car pool of others going, so travel had to be set up for me to get back. I had to convience Mr. Kauth and others that I should go. The items that had been taken from me during the search and the demand that I turn such things as jewerly, drugs (Lip Balm in my case!) and so on were being held. By that point, the intimidation factor (See the summary of the weekend manual if you wonder what exactly I mean, or my essay on the weekend found elsewhere on these pages.)
Quote
I grow weary of bringing these messages to the forum. My only suggestion it that you take the steps to find out for yourself the truth… Express your concerns to those you criticise. Listen carefully to their response, judge for yourself then given real data. It might not be right for you, fair enough, but at least do your wife the honour of getting a second opinion. It sounds to me like she is getting something very valuable out of her time with WWI.
Sadly, the questions raised by myself and others will continue until MKP decides to come clean about it's practices and stop proclaiming that a mystery is needed for the weekend to be effective. Many other healing/empowering methods are around, and they do not hide behind this veil. If you are able to help make this happen, by answering questions in clear, direct answers, perhaps, just perhaps the light of day will shine on MKP, and fewer of us will need to question the validity of it or it's methods.
Joseph :)
PS feel free to buzz over any questions to me, I am not a leader with this work but I am willing to offer my opinion if it is of value to you.
PPS I hope my post is not too heavy, I just find it tough seeing collusion and criticism of something which has been so valuable to me.[/quote]
Mankind project
Posted by:
horse
()
Date: February 27, 2007 05:09PM
I'm puzzled.
[b:e202a201a9]rrmoderator[/b:e202a201a9]--i.e., Mr. Rick Ross himself--regards MKP as an Large Group Awareness Training, which, though not as evil as a cult, is an extraordinarily Bad Thing.
HOWEVER--when I search for MKP or NWTA or "ManKind Project" or "New Warriors" on the homepage or the search page of www.culteducation.com, what turns up is ... nothing. Given MKP's alleged destructiveness, is that not a great oversight, Mr. Ross? Shouldn't this kind of critical information be more easily available?
I did find a single mention of MKP on your main website, in a list in "The Mary Polaski 'L' Series." Ms. Polaski's primary subject is the Landmark Forum, which she says provoked her "mental breakdown," and Lifespring is in second place. She makes a cursory effort to generalize about Large Group Awareness Trainings, but she neither defines nor describes an LGAT. Instead, she writes, "Large Group Awareness Training is perhaps most easily delineated by simply referring to the programs which people consider to be LGAT"--could a statement be any more circular?
So, if one is to find out anything about MKP on this website, one has to come to this discussion forum, which presents inherent epistemological difficulties--it's all anecdotes, paraphrases, and kind or (usually) unkind remarks. Sorting through the wheat and chaff is as difficult as, well ... life.
My own experience of the New Warrior Training Adventure has been good, as an initiate and later as a staff member. As an initiate, no one tried to impose any values on me other than my own, and as a staff member I have seen the same meticulous respect for personal values. (I have been told that the early years of the NWTA were far more violent.) My subsequent experience of the ManKind Project has been extremely mixed--but the values that some subgroups keep trying to impose on me are, for the most part, indistinguishable from those of the Democratic Party. I believe that a minority in the organization would like to push MKP in a political/religious, leftwing/New Age direction, and I would like to see that ended--but to my knowledge that attitude has not infected the NWTA itself.
Perhaps we could discuss, point-by-point: Russ Wise's characteristics of an LGAT; flaws of encounter groups; Margaret Thaler Singer's analysis of persuasive techniques; Robert Jay Lifton's themes of thought control--and whether or not they can work in less than 48 hours; and how all these things apply (or not) to the NWTA.
I have no problem trashing things I don't like about MKP or the NWTA. I know Bill Kauth and I think he's an utter fool, although his [i:e202a201a9]A Circle of Men[/i:e202a201a9] (1992) is acutely observed. I don't know the reason for his mental decay. Something else he wrote, the Context Presentation, a prose piece recited during the NWTA, is near-drivel; it reads like a hungover stupid man tried to reconstruct something that a drunken smart man said the night before. I re-write that piece whenever I have to deliver it, and no one has ever given me any trouble over it.
I have no problem with disagreement. (One of my oldest friends is a Trotskyite--the relationship survives because, when we discuss politics, we footnote EVERYTHING. Sometimes we even learn something from each other.) But I don't like being patronized. That's what I find most infuriating about so many New Warriors. I've developed a reputation as quite the curmudgeon.
[b:e202a201a9]rrmoderator[/b:e202a201a9]--i.e., Mr. Rick Ross himself--regards MKP as an Large Group Awareness Training, which, though not as evil as a cult, is an extraordinarily Bad Thing.
HOWEVER--when I search for MKP or NWTA or "ManKind Project" or "New Warriors" on the homepage or the search page of www.culteducation.com, what turns up is ... nothing. Given MKP's alleged destructiveness, is that not a great oversight, Mr. Ross? Shouldn't this kind of critical information be more easily available?
I did find a single mention of MKP on your main website, in a list in "The Mary Polaski 'L' Series." Ms. Polaski's primary subject is the Landmark Forum, which she says provoked her "mental breakdown," and Lifespring is in second place. She makes a cursory effort to generalize about Large Group Awareness Trainings, but she neither defines nor describes an LGAT. Instead, she writes, "Large Group Awareness Training is perhaps most easily delineated by simply referring to the programs which people consider to be LGAT"--could a statement be any more circular?
So, if one is to find out anything about MKP on this website, one has to come to this discussion forum, which presents inherent epistemological difficulties--it's all anecdotes, paraphrases, and kind or (usually) unkind remarks. Sorting through the wheat and chaff is as difficult as, well ... life.
My own experience of the New Warrior Training Adventure has been good, as an initiate and later as a staff member. As an initiate, no one tried to impose any values on me other than my own, and as a staff member I have seen the same meticulous respect for personal values. (I have been told that the early years of the NWTA were far more violent.) My subsequent experience of the ManKind Project has been extremely mixed--but the values that some subgroups keep trying to impose on me are, for the most part, indistinguishable from those of the Democratic Party. I believe that a minority in the organization would like to push MKP in a political/religious, leftwing/New Age direction, and I would like to see that ended--but to my knowledge that attitude has not infected the NWTA itself.
Perhaps we could discuss, point-by-point: Russ Wise's characteristics of an LGAT; flaws of encounter groups; Margaret Thaler Singer's analysis of persuasive techniques; Robert Jay Lifton's themes of thought control--and whether or not they can work in less than 48 hours; and how all these things apply (or not) to the NWTA.
I have no problem trashing things I don't like about MKP or the NWTA. I know Bill Kauth and I think he's an utter fool, although his [i:e202a201a9]A Circle of Men[/i:e202a201a9] (1992) is acutely observed. I don't know the reason for his mental decay. Something else he wrote, the Context Presentation, a prose piece recited during the NWTA, is near-drivel; it reads like a hungover stupid man tried to reconstruct something that a drunken smart man said the night before. I re-write that piece whenever I have to deliver it, and no one has ever given me any trouble over it.
I have no problem with disagreement. (One of my oldest friends is a Trotskyite--the relationship survives because, when we discuss politics, we footnote EVERYTHING. Sometimes we even learn something from each other.) But I don't like being patronized. That's what I find most infuriating about so many New Warriors. I've developed a reputation as quite the curmudgeon.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.