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Mankind project
Posted by: NotOneOfThem ()
Date: March 06, 2007 07:11AM

I'd bet you are right on both counts. I have had the experience with MKP as with Landmark where I was 'invited' to the graduation so I could experience it with them. In the case of Landmark, the call came on Saturday evening, asking if I would want to drive some 100 miles to attend the graduation. "So you can see this wonderful new thing I found."

In the case of MKP, it was by the person I called M in my essay and he wanted me to attend so I could see the 'gifts of the weekend.' Inside of three months after he went through the NWAT and follow up gatherings he had broken up with his long term girl friend, slept with his third cousin on at least one occasion, (I was on a trip with him when she visited!), quit his job, and started drinking and smoking cigars. Oh, yeah, and he was done with me as well.. I didn't 'get it.' when I left the weekend early.

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Mankind project
Posted by: NotOneOfThem ()
Date: March 18, 2007 04:53AM

I'm glad to see this message section and the whole site back up. My but these MKP people were testy on the messages they left on the blog.

In the mean time...

Someone lifted my essay on my experience of going on a NWTA and posted as their own on another discussion board.

Please, if you want to do that, then state you copied from the Rick Ross Forum and link to the page!

So much for honesty!

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Mankind project
Posted by: ginah ()
Date: March 20, 2007 04:38AM

From the MKP weekend protocol manual

3. Regarding the last item on secrecy use the following as a guide.
We want to get away from the idea that we have "secrets that we have to keep people from finding out about", Stay focused on the positive reasons WHY we hold this event "Sacred". This should head off a lot of the questions around who can know. The following may be used as a guideline or read as is to present positive reasons for holding our secret.


Secret Male Ritual

Empowering Intent: To hold sacred and honor what we have shared as men. New Brothers choose to hold the secrets of our work to empower the men who will follow.

Energy Embodied: Cherish this work and invite the same from these new brothers.

1. Read or memorize verbatim "Secret Male Ritual" definitions below:

Commit: To give in charge or trust; deliver for safekeeping; to bind as by a promise; to pledge; to entrust.

Promise: An oral or written agreement to do or not do something.

Trust: a firm belief in the honesty, integrity, or reliability of another person.

Confidential: Told in confidence, imparted in secret, entrusted with private or secret matters.

Secret: Kept from public knowledge or from the knowledge of certain persons.

2. Present briefly in discussion style:
For years, generations, thousands of years, men's initiations have always been secret.
All of the processes we do are secret.
It doesn't work to share it with others.

Especially women, they wouldn't understand men's ritual.

If you want a man friend to share this, don't tell him what happens here for obvious reasons. Share what happened for you, but not the processes or exercises.

Give examples: "We had some discussions, played some games, but more important I learned some stuff about my feelings about my dad.....etc."

Do not flaunt the secrecy. Don't use the word "secret". Share the fruit, but keep the tree in secret.

3. Regarding the last item on secrecy use the following as a guide.
We want to get away from the idea that we have "secrets that we have to keep people from finding out about", Stay focused on the positive reasons WHY we hold this event "Sacred". This should head off a lot of the questions around who can know. The following may be used as a guideline or read as is to present positive reasons for holding our secret.

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Mankind project
Posted by: ginah ()
Date: March 20, 2007 11:30PM

The following statement from the MKP NWTA weekend protocol manual

"All of the processes we do are secret. It doesn't work to share it with others. Especially women, they wouldn't understand men's ritual."

is a "defining" statement towards women and would be termed as an abussive statement towards women by therapist and counselors who are familiar with verbally and emotionally abusive relationships. It is regarded as telling someone “their future" as well as telling someone what they “know, should know, or don’t know” and therefore defining who they are. No other person knows what I will or will not understand, only I know that, and only once I have been "told" something will I know if I understand it or not.

This is one way MKP starts creating emotional abuse in heterosexual relationships, and is one way that MKP starts creating a "separation" of husband and wife.

For those women (or any who would like to understand verbal/emotional abuse) who have concerns about their relationship, I would like to suggest two books. They are written by the same author, and have helped me in the last couple of months to understand what has been happening within my relationship with my husband since his NWTA weekend. The author is Patricia Evans, the two books that have been helpfull to me are "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and "The Verbally Abusive Man".

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Mankind project
Posted by: NotOneOfThem ()
Date: March 22, 2007 09:46PM

Well, actually keeping secrets from one another in [u:ca54e98986]any[/u:ca54e98986] relationship is asking for all sorts of trouble. And one would have to ask why this is being done. Were my wife and I to keep secrets from one another, it would be clear that we were having one of the first failings of any solid relationship; communications. Without clear, open and honest communications, any relationship is doomed.

One of the reasons I think the New Warrors like to keep this secret is that if anyone knew what goes on over the weekend they would:

A: Start laughing. Reading the manual out of the context of “What was done.” Or that, I was struck with how farcical it really seems. For example:

Quote

King/Elder

Empowering Intent: Each initiate basks for a moment in the light as he descends into darkness. As each man directly confronts the ultimate questions of life he gets a brief vision of a higher purpose (sacred king & mission) before he continues the descent into chaos and blackness.

Energy Embodied: The blessing, fatherly, loving and gracious king.

Materials:
___ White headband
___ Candles
Timing: Early in the greeting. Somewhere between challenger and the contraband room.

Notes to the King/Elder: Make real statements of inquiry, light questions. This permits more room to not answer, as many men will not have any answer. We want at this point for initiates to "hear" and hold the question. You may be surprised by the deep (perhaps archetypal) recognition men display when they feel these questions. You may see or feel them jump, jolt or startle.

Preparation: A ritual elder serving as the symbolic "king" dresses in black except for a white headband. You stand or sit in a dark room or outside in nature with a candles placed so as to illuminate both your eyes and the initiates eyes. Do not take full ashes on your face.

Process: Escort leads initiate to King/Elder and says: "Knock on that door." or "See that man."
King/Elder says, "Enter" or "Step forward"
Initiate enters and sees dimly the figure of an elder. Gently and firmly invite the initiate to step forward until you can easily see each others eyes.
(Example: "Take another step closer".) Establish clear eye contact.
King internally, silently blesses the man before him. (Blessing: feel your belly soft and send a prayer.)
King/Elder says: "Tell me your last name." Even if he has passed table one and has his number, ask his name. This will keep the elder contact personal and help jar him momentarily out of his descent thereby getting his attention for the questions. Listen for his name. Example: Smith or Jones
King/Elder says: "Smith, tell me (dramatic pause) your life mission."
Note: Be sure to say "Life" mission. Even if a man does not have one he knows what that means.
Stay in eye contact and accept whatever the initiate says. (15 seconds) Count slowly 15 seconds, Stay in the quiet void, keep blessing him as he struggles and struggles in the question.
Initiates will likely stumble, or give a surface level answer. Some will clearly state a mission or make one up and some will say "I don't have one."
Accept whatever he says. And say "Thank You." (pause)
King/Elder says: "Smith tell me, (pause) Who do you serve?"
Initiate will likely stumble again with an answer. Some will have some version of his inner king, some will say god, some may say "myself" and some may not know. (15 seconds) Stay in eye contact and accept whatever he says.
King/Elder says: "Thank you" (perhaps a small bow) and points "Knock on that door." or Points to the escort, "Return to that man".
Escort then takes him to next step of the descent.

Having not experienced this – it was not done during the weekend I went on – It could be read as something from a college initiation, and we all know who silly those area. I mean, ashes on your face, sitting lighted by a candle. All of this preceded and followed by being shoved around from place to place by an ‘escort’.

Or B: See the process as one not too different than that of brainwashing. For example:

Quote

Empowering Intent: Initiates surrender some more of the security of their outside world.
Begin stripping initiates of personal items.

Energy Embodied: Direct and matter-of fact.
Materials:
___ Zip lock bags
___ 3x5 cards
___ Marker
Preparation: Make a list of contraband items (see #1 below) in black marker.
Post list on wall where it can be easily seen by initiates.
1. Memorize and state clearly to each initiate as he steps forward, "Put all jewelry, keys, money, electrical devices, sacred objects, tobacco, weapons, drugs, time pieces, and food in this bag."

Note: Some centers have the man put all medications, prescription and over the counter, in a separate baggie. This bag gets another 3x5 card with the man's number in red.
Note: Some centers treat tobacco as a medicine and put it in this second bag too.
Hand him the bag(s).
2. If initiate says anything, repeat #1.
3. Write initiate's number on 3x5" card ? put in bag ? seal bag. Hand bag to initiate. He will carry bag into contraband room.
4. Say "Stand over there" and point to the spot or "See that man" point to an escort.
Note: sacred objects has been added to cover wedding rings, crosses, medicine pouches, etc.

First off, taking things away from someone as empowering? Hmm. Hard to understand that one.
Secondly, part of brainwashing as a process is to remove the persons identity and relationship to things they have.

People like to be in on secrets. It makes them feel special. They know something no one else does. Often times someone will come forward and tell a secret, and then the truth is out in the open.

But, if a couple - hetrosexual or homosexual - are keeping secrets from one another, that, IMHO is the spark of things going wrong.

I agree Ginah, that this secrecy puts the MKP in a bad light. Anyway, some of us know what goes on during the weekend; some of us have read the manual or a summary of it and have some research on what this group does.

Bringing the light of day into the darkness of a group that truly lives in a shadow. A shadow of secrecy.

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Mankind project
Posted by: CampMuir ()
Date: March 23, 2007 01:05AM

I have been contemplating the issue of secrecy since I have left MKP, one of the many reasons I left. For me and my wife, the immediate demand of secrecy from MKP drew a big and heavy line that we have been repairing for the last year. A good analogy we like to use refers to rock climbing, which we both enjoy.

Rock climbing not only involves strength but also requires ones ability to problem solve what holds to use and how to position the body to move vertically up a rock face. In preparing for a rock climb one has to take an inventory of what equipment and food/water one needs to safely prepare. Typically, unless truly experienced, the preparation involves reading guide books and consulting with other climbers to get as much help (beta) as you feel you need to successfully & safely complete the route. In a healthy relationship, this beta is shared to the extent the climber wants to know. Some climbers want more beta then others, but in general most climbers will ask for what is the minimal gear for them to be safe on the climb.

Now, the reward of a climb is a great feeling for both me and my wife. We have both shared beta between each other without hesitation for any routes we do. But as we became more experienced climbers we would, at times, temper our beta requests to push our problem solving skills.

When MKP came along, it asked for me to keep all beta secret and that the top of the climb should be the reward alone to share. I too believe that if the procedures were made public they would be mocked and nobody would ever sign up to do that "climb".

BTW, my wife and I are back to sharing more beta with each other again.

Cheers,
M

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Mankind project
Posted by: S_Byers666 ()
Date: March 23, 2007 07:34PM

Quote
NotOneOfThem
Quote

Begin stripping initiates of personal items.

Energy Embodied: Direct and matter-of fact.
Materials:
___ Zip lock bags
___ 3x5 cards
___ Marker
Preparation: Make a list of contraband items (see #1 below) in black marker.

Note: Some centers have the man put all medications, prescription and over the counter, in a separate baggie. This bag gets another 3x5 card with the man's number in red.

3. Write initiate's number on 3x5" card ? put in bag ? seal bag. Hand bag to initiate. He will carry bag into contraband room.

Note: sacred objects has been added to cover wedding rings, crosses, medicine pouches, etc.

The consfication of medications and (medical) drugs is frankly criminal. No wonder they keep this a secret. Even signing a medical disclaimer would not stop a court from prosecuting MKP if a guy had medical problems arising from being prohibited his medications. This has also been discussed in ex-MKP on Yahoo Groups. Also I wonder if all personal items are actually returned? I certainly wouldn't trust any of these morons with my credit card(s) or wedding band, etc.

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Mankind project
Posted by: NotOneOfThem ()
Date: March 24, 2007 12:25AM

What a great example!

Perhaps is it maturity or the bad experience I had with MKP that makes me ask for more information before jumping in to something.. most of the time....MKP is like "We climbed the mountain, but we can't tell you the route or where the rattlesnake dens are. If we told you that, you would miss out on the meaning of the climb." which is bull.

I don't think one looses the ability to appreciate a process just because one knows the details of the process. I understand and have participated in the process of production for a film and the audio for it. Yet, I am still fascinated by what I see, and my appreciation for it is even deeper than it would be had I not see the details of the process. The MKP claim does not hold water.

I'm glad that you and your wife were able to get past the damper that MKP put on your relationship!

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Mankind project
Posted by: CampMuir ()
Date: March 24, 2007 05:32AM

Thanks for the compliment. It is helping me to write these ideas of mine if an arena that can be shared with others.

MKP's lack of respect for an individuals need to do some preparation before a big "climb" can also be interpreted as the can save you if you get bit by that snake or have a huge fall. OR are they purposely setting up the environment to ensure you get bit or fall. I can not verify if there was a malicious intent to set up the weekend to be that way, but it sure felt like it to me.

Again, this is not the only reason I left MKP. There were many reasons available to choose from.

Cheers,
M

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Mankind project
Posted by: NotOneOfThem ()
Date: March 24, 2007 10:15AM

Let me try to answer a couple of questions that were raised by quoting from the manual for the MKP New Warrior Training Adventure (NWTA) (per fair use, I am quoting to comment on this)

Emphasis mine.

Quote

Contraband

Empowering Intention: Taking initiate away from worldly attachments by removing his personal stuff.
Initiates feel the descent.

Energy Embodied: Clear and direct, like a blank mirror.

Materials:
___ Paper bags
___ Markers
___ 3x5 cards
___ Pens

Note: Besides [b:e23365e76b]separating men from identity items[/b:e23365e76b] this process also increases physical safety by removing any weapons and drugs from easy access.
1. Positions: One man ("table man") dumps stuff if needed and alternates with hard questions. Second man ("pat down man") takes notes on accountability issues of attitude and contraband, and does the pat down when table man calls for it. Third man ("side man") observes initiates for issues and pushes verbally. The three position usually rotate after each initiate. Escort stays close to initiate.
2. Commands:
"Put your stuff on this table."
"Open it."
"Take everything out."
"Hurry up."

Note: Dump the stuff for the man only as a last resort. Give him a chance to dump it himself. Dump it for him only if he is too slow. Do not invade unnecessarily.
3. What to confiscate:
[b:e23365e76b]Anything he will not need; any reading material, all toiletries except his tooth brush and toothpaste. Take virtually everything except his clothing and bedding. [/b:e23365e76b]

Note: If medicines look vital (prescription medications) ask him
"Do you need this?" and if he says yes don't confiscate it. If he says no or [b:e23365e76b]hesitates confiscate it[/b:e23365e76b] and say: "Will you ask staff if you need this."
When he says yes put it in his bag.
As you can see, this is the process for shaking down what needs to be taken or not. Stripping the man of his items. If you hesitate and respond slowly, you medications will be taken. Trust me, given what has taken place up to this moment, the fact that you are surrounded by 4 people, all of whom have been hostile to you thus far, you might be a bit shy about asserting yourself and saying, “Yes, I need that.”

I continue in this section
Quote

Anything on Table # 2 list: If we find a piece of this contraband ask a series of closed ended questions requiring yes/no answers. This requires the initiate to acknowledge the obvious.
Open example:
"Is this a (name of item)?" Yes or No
"Were you told to leave (type of contraband) at the other table?" Yes or No
"Did you follow instruction?" Yes or No
Example with specific details:
"Is this banana/knife/radio?" Yes or No
"Is this food/weapon/electrical device?" Yes or No
"Were you told to leave food/weapons/electrical devices at the other table?" Yes or No
"Did you follow the instructions?" No or No
If he answers "I forgot I had it." he has not answered the question. Restate it "Yes or no, is this food?" This process lets a man call himself of his failure to follow directions and be accountable for his actions.
This also [b:e23365e76b]sets him up[/b:e23365e76b] for the Accountability process.
(Don't expect him to be too happy about it, though.)

Again, to answer a question, yes, there are traps that are set for men to fall into. Here one such trap is noted. BTW. When I was asked if my lip balm was a drug I laughed and said “No.” it just seemed silly.

I continue…

Quote

4. Questions: during the process staffmen may ask the following.
"Who are you number __ ?" If initiate gives his name or anything but his number, repeat: "Who are you, number __ ?"
Repeat with variation as often as needed and when he gets it say; "Thank your number __ . "
We want the initiate to acknowledge his number as part of
getting him to lighten up on his [b:e23365e76b]current identity. [/b:e23365e76b]
"Why are you here?" and "How is this like your life?"
We use these as throwaways. Don't expect or wait for an answer and accept any answer. We only want to stimulate some self questioning under pressure and keep him [b:e23365e76b]off balance. [/b:e23365e76b]
"Do you forget/hurry/rebel a lot in your life?
"How is that working for you?"

Here again is another section where the initiate is being 'taken down' by the process and kept off balance.

Another section that migth be of interest is the search:
Quote


5. The Pat Down: Table leader says; "For your safety and ours we are going to pat you down. Do you understand?"
When initiate acknowledges with a "yes" or a positive nod tell him; "Put you hands on the table and take a step back."
Pat down man says; "I'm going to touch you now." and proceeds to pat him down.
If something is found acknowledge it with him, "What is this?". When he names it, put it in the bag.

Note: The pat-down is [b:e23365e76b]partially an intimidation process[/b:e23365e76b] and a highly practical because we do not want to risk any weapons coming into the training.
6. Notes: Make careful notes of serious confiscated items and men with extremely resistant attitudes for accountability team and future reference.
7. Bags: Put each man's plastic bag and all other confiscated items in numbered paper bag and make sure bags get to Bagman later.

So, there you have the search explained. Intimidation. Nice way to start a weekend where you are being welcomed to some new level of being, hey?

There was a question about things removed from men.

Quote

Bagman

Empowering Intent: Be of service to initiates and staff by caring for their stuff.
Bags remain safe and accessible all weekend.

Energy Embodied: Deliberate and attentive. Friday evening: Immediately after the Greeting
1. Collect paper bags from contraband rooms.
2. Put bags, in numerical order, in pit before accountability. Get other staffmen to help.
3. Be responsible during accountability to take any initiates surrendered jewelry etc. and make sure it gets in the plastic ziplock bag inside the correct paper bag.
Later Friday: As the "Confidential Process Questionnaire" begins.
1. Remove bags from pit and secure all bags in numerical order in a safe place. Ask leaders ahead of time for location of a "safe and accessible place" to store the bags for the weekend. Get other staffmen to help.
On Sunday: During the "sweat cave"
1. Return bags to each man's room or bunk.
Bag numbers usually correspond with bunk number or room number or team numbers.
2. Also return each man's own "Confidential Process Questionnaire" by putting it in his bag. Match numbers.
3. Also make sure he gets a copy of any current New Warrior literature.

I hope this helps to clarify this for you.

To be far there is this note In the version I have, which notes revisions made in the manual

Quote

Out: Violating or intimidating initiates in the greeting. Over and over we kept hearing the call for less intimidation and violation, to be replaced with more clearly holding of the blank mirror for initiates to see their own shadows

However, while stating that there will be no intimidating of the initiates in the greeting, the manual, as you see above, states several places where the initiate [b:e23365e76b]is to be intimidated.[/b:e23365e76b] I guess you can have it both ways.

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