sonsio:

You previously acknowledged the deliberate "manipulation," which is dictated by the manual for MKP weekends.

How can you possibly ignore that the manual is all about controlling people's thoughts and emotions?

Again, it seems that you are only here as an apologist for MKP.

Repeating over and over again that this "not my experience" isn't a meaningful response to the complaints here or the manual notes.

Sonsio, so we understand what you DID go through why don't you write down what happened to you as others have done and let us read it? That way we can understand the difference.

Start from the beginning, tell it like it WAS, not just tell us that your experience was different, but really say what happened. Just like notoneofthem did but your version of what happened.

For example, when I arrived the men were really nice and guided me to my next step in the process of signing in. Or when I arrived I was yelled at, or, or or........etc.

My husband tells me that when he and his carpoolers arrived they were as well told in a very hostile way that they were early and to leave and come back on time. My husband as well tells me that they were "patted" down etc........ From what my husband has told me his "process" was pretty much the same as notoneofthem, and his weekend was within the past year. How much has changed since then? I do have a copy of the weekend manual, he has told me that it is "pretty much exact" ........................ Has it changed that much Sonsio? Within this past year?

NotOneOfThem, I want to thank you for being open and honest about what you feel you went through. I hope that one of these days a man will be willing to be open and honest about the full weekend. It seems that only those that are strong enough to leave early are able to do so. Kudos to you for being able to protect yourself and be able to do what you felt you had to do.

I would first off like to thank those who have commented on my written piece. To use the MKP phrase, it's good to "be Clean about it"

Sonsio, I would like to join in the challange to you to express exactly what your experience was like. How you were first greeted, what happened when you first entered the building and perhaps even an account of the facilities that were provided. For example; Did you have actual bathrooms, or were you required to use buckets or ask permission, as I was?

You state that there was yelling. When and why? In what context? Be direct and tell the truth. Come out of your shadow and tell us what you saw and experienced in details. I am eager to understand why.

I'm quite at a loss to understand why the hostilities need to take place in any context at all. If the Weekend is as claimed one to Nuture mens' souls, please explain to me how that fits into any occasion for a staff person to raise their voice.

What was your search process like? Did you surrender everything as asked and then the person searching your bag or person found something anyway?

Another items that I am at a loss to understand, and perhaps you can clear this up for me, is that if a person is to have a state of trust of others while on the weekend, why the searches anyway? If a person is asked to surrender weapons, I can understand that, (I don't think anyone should carry them anyway, unless they are a cop, but that's a whole different matter.) Jewerly, money, hmm. Perhaps for safekeeping in case something was stolen. But wait, trust! There would be no fear of anything being stolen if there was really trust. If the purpose of not having these things around was to protect MKP from libility, why not a statement in the letter saying that you should not bring .... (List items here) with you on the weekend. Then it's clear and clean. I believe the search is part of the 'tearing down' of someone. Demeaning and dominating. And, there is only one good reason I can see for that.. To change the person.. Take away their watch so they loose track of time and time is relational to our lives. A way to reprogram them into something else.

Please explain this to me, from your eyes as a Warrior.

Kindly,

I'm Not One of Them

ginah,

I am so jealous of your having a copy of the manual. I've read the summary posted in other section of this Forum, but I'd really like to know just how scripted it is. Was there a certain amount of time alloted for each segment, such as the staffer who called up certain people to 'answer for items they did not surrender.' and the man who came in and yelled we were not telling the truth etc. What that a scripted item and timed as an entrance.

Most of all, I am curious about the confinement and restroom situation. Standard items?

I guess in part, I am trying to make some sense of a situation that did not, and still does not make sense.

Peace,

I'm Not One of Them

[b:9ed6f3f158]Ginah, NotOneOfThem,[/b:9ed6f3f158]
I choose not to provide the vivid detail you ask for for reasons mentioned in many of the previous notes in this thread, namely that I agreed to preserve the confidentiality of the weekend. I regret that it may cause you to judge me as hiding in shadow. I am being very clear and open about the experience to the degree that I believe should be shared with those who have not participated in it. I do believe that there is value in ritual and mystery of the weekend.

[b:9ed6f3f158]NotOneOfThem,[/b:9ed6f3f158]
Regarding the bathrooms, at my facility they were real and could be used when needed, though we always did inform the staff that we would be doing so. If we wanted, we could go somewhere outside other than the bathroom. I am sure facilities across the country and the world are different.

Regaring the yelling, as I mentioned above, I saw it as role playing. And to be honest, after the beginning, I don't recall that much of it. I personally didn't consider the yelling to be the "hostilities" as you mentioned, I considered it to be intentionally abrasive without inflicting harm (as in a football coach yelling at his players in practice), there was intent behind each man's actions.

Was all this necessary? Instead of the weekend the way it was, they could have had a weekend of sitting in a big circle and chanting, but I don't think it would have had the same effect (granted, for me it was positive, for you it was negative). Why? Because this weekend is about teaching a man to face their shadow, to look within. If it were easily possible to do that within comfort zones, you would have already have done so.

You had an interesting comment about the search, "Perhaps for safekeeping in case something was stolen. But wait, trust! There would be no fear of anything being stolen if there was really trust." You pick apart one piece of the weekend that you observed and draw conclusions from it that could be accurate and that could just as easily inaccurate. There are reasons for the search as a specific step in the weekend, and it is not so much about trust or control but more towards safekeeping of your valuables and safety (the weekend if full of activities, and safety is similar to not wearing jewelry while playing sports). I don't disagree that part of the intent (in my opinion, I didn't read the manual either yet) is to separate the person from the worldly connections via cell phones and time (watches), but to say that is "a way to reprogram them into something else" is too large of a leap in logic for me.

I question the comment that the only intent of all of this is "to change the person", though I think you were very close, I think the intent is to empower the person to change themselves.

[b:9ed6f3f158]Ginah, [/b:9ed6f3f158]
You mentioned that your husband had done this in the past year, and much of the process was the same, can you ask him whether he was touched/pushed around (other than the patting down)? Did he observe men being told what to feel or what to think (again, I go back to the example that NotOneOfThem mentioned with the fat guy being told he hated men)? I am very curious as to whether that sort of thing occurred on his NTWA weekend.

Thanks

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Ginah, NotOneOfThem,
I choose not to provide the vivid detail you ask for for reasons mentioned in many of the previous notes in this thread, namely that I agreed to preserve the confidentiality of the weekend. I regret that it may cause you to judge me as hiding in shadow. I am being very clear and open about the experience to the degree that I believe should be shared with those who have not participated in it. I do believe that there is value in ritual and mystery of the weekend.

sonsio,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions.

I will be honest and tell you that it was fairly close to my expectations when I asked them. Your answer is vague, undefined and secretive. Thus it seems to go with MKP. I know about the agreement you signed, I signed on as well, however, I righteousness guides me to tell the whole, unedited truth about my experience of the weekend.


If you go to the first few pages of this forum you will find several pages that are a fair use summary of the Training Manual used for the weekend. I've read it, I'm guessing that others such as Ginah have as well. (She has the actual manual!) So, really, not much is hidden away from the light of truth. Part of the objective of this site, as I understand it from reading many interviews with Mr. Ross (I do a lot of research as part of my work.) is to shine a bright light on the inner workings of secretive groups such as MKP. In AA, a group I am not part of, they have a saying, "Your only as sick as your secrets." I think they are right.


Reading your reply, there are several things that I found interesting and hope perhaps you can expand on them a bit, while honoring your agreement. You are, after all being asked direct questions and congruency would compel you to be forthcoming with direct full answers. Is that not part of what you were taught?

Please explain the value of "ritual and mystery" as it applies here.

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NotOneOfThem,
Regarding the bathrooms, at my facility they were real and could be used when needed, though we always did inform the staff that we would be doing so. If we wanted, we could go somewhere outside other than the bathroom. I am sure facilities across the country and the world are different.
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"Inform" a very vague word. So, in the midst of a segment you could stand up, leave the square where the event, such as questioning was taking place and leave the area, and you had to only say to a staffer "I'm using the bathroom." is that correct. (Certainly we are not over the bounds of your confidentiality.)

You may be wondering, gentle readers why I keep going back to this point of restrooms. I have observed in my own amateur way, that this is something that seems to be a good point of control for some groups. For example, Landmark education starts off their seminars by instructing those who are attending that if they "leave the room 'even for a minute' to use the restroom they will miss something important" and discourage them from leaving. (I know of 4 people who went to the Landmark "Forum" and it was a detail that all 4 of them told me about.) Restroom use is a deeply personal thing and I think any time a group regulates it in any way, it sends up a flag for me. Even in a mental hospital or ward, where just about everything a person does this is not the case except in extreme cases where a person is on suicide watch and even then, it is that they are confined to an area or being observed.
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Regaring the yelling, as I mentioned above, I saw it as role-playing. And to be honest, after the beginning, I don't recall that much of it. I personally didn't consider the yelling to be the "hostilities" as you mentioned, I considered it to be intentionally abrasive without inflicting harm (as in a football coach yelling at his players in practice), there was intent behind each man's actions.

You saw it as role-playing. At what point? You state "after the beginning, I don't recall that much of it." I take this to be an acknowledgment that yelling is par for the course as part of what the manual calls Intimidation. I understand your saying there was intent, but what? What can be done at a therapeutic level when screaming and manhandling someone? For me, it only removed my trust of them.

You know, Vince Lombardi is a personal hero of mine. He was a tough man, and he drove his players very hard. And, yes, at times, he yelled at them. Even current coaches will do that. As will a drill sergeant. One thing that I think might be of note is that in both of these cases, one knows what they are in for before the sign up. There are no secret practices, they are held right out in the open. Here in Wisconsin, the Green Bay Packers are famous for their practices, with bleachers to make viewing comfortable for those who arrive early enough. And, most everyone knows what would be expected from a Drill Sergeant.
(See [www.culteducation.com])

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Was all this necessary? Instead of the weekend the way it was, they could have had a weekend of sitting in a big circle and chanting, but I don't think it would have had the same effect (granted, for me it was positive, for you it was negative). Why? Because this weekend is about teaching a man to face their shadow, to look within. If it were easily possible to do that within comfort zones, you would have already have done so

.

True, however, other methods of looking with in, such as meditation are not kept a secret and do not operate in the shadows.
(See [www.culteducation.com])
(Yes, I know, This site has references to Buddhist groups, and they are considered by Buddhists to be an aberration, not the norm.)

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You had an interesting comment about the search, "Perhaps for safekeeping in case something was stolen. But wait, trust! There would be no fear of anything being stolen if there was really trust." You pick apart one piece of the weekend that you observed and draw conclusions from it that could be accurate and that could just as easily inaccurate. There are reasons for the search as a specific step in the weekend, and it is not so much about trust or control but more towards safekeeping of your valuables and safety (the weekend if full of activities, and safety is similar to not wearing jewelry while playing sports). I don't disagree that part of the intent (in my opinion, I didn't read the manual either yet) is to separate the person from the worldly connections via cell phones and time (watches), but to say that is "a way to reprogram them into something else" is too large of a leap in logic for me.

Perhaps Mr. Ross would be a better authority on this, as he has dealt with a number of cults in his work, but it is merely my observations (and readings) is that one of the things that happens when one joins a cult, is that you are urged to break ties with your family, and in some cases, assume a new name. I go back to my question of why not alert people before they arrive to leave those items behind?


The site phinnweb.org/neuro/brainwash/ has an interesting article on 'brainwashing' and one of the items they list is:

17) ISOLATION - Inducing loss of reality by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references.

To me, rational references would mean things such as ones identification items.

One of the sad things that happened with my friend M, was that he no longer felt he could associate with me because he and I did not speak the same language, I did not speak in terms of responding "Ho" as the affirmative for something a person had said. I had this experience with others who I knew that were on the weekend as staff as well, one of them was a business associate. (He was playing the music.)

My thought is that by removing your references to time by taking your watch, placing you in a room where you have no available references to time and isolation from the outside world, the person is broken open a bit. Keeping you awake for long periods of time, (the page above lists this as "11) SLEEP DEPRIVATION AND FATIGUE - Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental an physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep") you are vulnerable. In AA they warn people to not become "To Angry, Lonely, Hungry or Tired" as these things may cause them to be vulnerable to partaking in drink. I think the same thing applies here.

Not such a far leap after all.

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I question the comment that the only intent of all of this is "to change the person", though I think you were very close, I think the intent is to empower the person to change themselves.

You'll have to explain to me how taking a persons possessions, putting them in a dark room to stand for 2 hours, keeping them awake for 22 hours a day is empowerment. I t[i:d9f7a5ca16]ruly[/i:d9f7a5ca16] don't understand that.

I know I'm going on a long time here, I guess I have much to say on the topic. Let me just say a few more things.

Every year, for the past 8 year I lead a Silent Retreat for the Unitarian Society where I belong. These are non-directed retreats, my job is mostly organizational. (Non-directed means that there are no lectures or other meetings where participants are pointed in a particular direction of thought or spiritual vein.) When participants arrive, we welcome them and show them to their room. We ask them to attend an orientation during which we explain meal times, how to make the most of silence and some of rules of the grounds such as a building the center asks us not to have people go into. We ask them to silence their cell phones and watches so as to not impose on those who would be bothered by them. We ask them to not speak on the grounds and designate an area where they may take conversations, if they wish.

That's it, no inspection, no demands that they hand over items. There is no need for it. No demands of silence or screaming at someone if they make a sound, Again, there is no need for it. We are adults after all.

In all the years that I have been going on (some 20 or so), or leading silent Retreats, (about 15) there has never been an item stolen. So, I don't buy the idea of the items being secured for safety reasons from that standpoint.

Before attending, each participant is sent a letter that explains what a Silent Retreat is and items to bring with them for their own enjoyment, such a paper and so on in case they wish to write or draw. It is clear what will take place and the timeline for the weekend is published. And the timeline for the weekend is when meals are served. Sleep all you like when you like. Snacks are always around. Make phone calls or even leave if you wish to.

Does this sort of thing work? Yes, very much so. I've seen men and women make life changing decisions such as to divorce or not, or start a new relationship with someone, or not or dedicating themselves to their existing one. . Changing careers or dedicating themselves to their existing one. All based on an a non-verbal, non-written agreement to be silent so that they may hear their own inner guide and not disturb those who are listening to theirs.

At the end, participants are invited to speak out of the silence and express to others in the group what their weekend was like. Some choose not to. There is no pressure to do so.

So, why then does MKP put demands on partipants?

Just a question.

I have given my account several times of what my husband has been willing to tell me of his weekend and what he claims to remember of the weekend.

I don't feel the necessity to do so again.

Sonsio, you were asked to give your account of the weekend, good diversionary tactic to ask me about my husbands. Read my previous posings.

Your statement that " I choose not to provide the vivid detail you ask for for reasons mentioned in many of the previous notes" was of no surprise to me what so ever.

As far as I am concerned you are out of integrity as many people are asking direct upfront questions and we have the right to know. We have that right so that we can make informed knowledgable decisions. You do not have the right to make these decisions for us, MKP does not have the human right to choose what is healthy for us.

NotOneOfThem states in regards to the searches and removal of items "I go back to my question of why not alert people before they arrive to leave those items behind?" My opinion? MKP would then not have an oppertunity to berate the men and start the feeling that they somehow did something wrong.

The manual states that men are to be separated from sacred items (wedding rings are included specifically) to separate the men from their lives.

The manual as well specifies how much sleep time the men are to be given. Sleep deprivation..........


NotOneOfThem states "You'll have to explain to me how taking a persons possessions, putting them in a dark room to stand for 2 hours, keeping them awake for 22 hours a day is empowerment. I truly don't understand that."

???Sonsio, can you answer that question?

I have to ask you one more question Sonsio. If the idea of the weekend is to empower a man to look deeply into himself, then why take away his name.

Permit me to explain, I promise to be as brief as I can.

If someone named Paul Jones where to go and he was was told that is name was no longer Paul Jones, but 22, who is he working on except some guy named 22, not someone named Paul Jones? How does that get personel and deeply into the workings, the shadow of that person?

Sonsio, please, don't worry about hiding behind ritual and all that on this one. I know it takes place, the manual summary says it takes place. You can talk about it. It's OK. You hold in your fingertips the ability to solve the puzzle for a bunch of us. No big secrets are being asked. Heck, it was in article in Playboy Magazine. The author had about the same experience I did, except he stayed and said it was OK, nothing special.

Peace,

For the last year or so, a member of my family (in-laws) has seemed to focus alot on all the negative aspects of my career etc. I chalked it up to concern at first, but then his wife paid for my wife and her sister to attend something called woman within weekend. It seemed harmless enough, of course at the graduation ceremony I was literally circled by 4 husbands extolling the virtues of the NWTA. Luckily I work in a field that requires me to make fact-based judgements using all available info. Upon reading the MKP, WWI websites, then forums such as this one and frequent web searches, I am concerned not only for my wife, but for myself as well. Her father is the stereotypical good old boy, who has been gradually moving away from society (literally buying a cabin in the woods etc). And does not take criticism of his actions well, and tomorrow we are going to his house and I've decided to decline the invite. This should be awkward, but I am not one to shy away from confrontation.

My wife is still very active in the WWI community and is actively recruiting. My father in-law and his wife seem genuinely happy in their marriage. Given the MKP's apparent dogma of "F@#k the B!@#h" etc and WWI's seeming empowerment of women, how is it the two groups co-exist? Out of respect for her, I have not tried to acces the WWI's forums, nor the MKP's boards, but the content is something I would like to verify. are there any public message boards for these two groups or any way to access them legally?

On a related note, how many members of AA approximately compose this group? Here it seems like a disproportionately high number. Is this a target group because of their pre-disposition? My wife and I have in the past attended a counsellor for marital problems. I don't believe our particular counsellor is a member, however, his partner in the business is a very active member and is the contact for the forms etc. Being a professional psychologist is this a breech of any professional ethics?

Lastly, I have decided to post a letter to the editor in the local paper(s), however I would like to include various links to enable individuals to read and decide for themselves as the NWTA training weekend is fast approaching and the recruitment drive is speeding up. Does anyone have any other links besides the MKP, WWI's main boards, this forum and a few searches? I've chosen to discount the yahoo groups as the seperate biases are evident.

I apoligize for the length of this post, but I ahve so many questions and concerns about this group and its methods, I'm actually losing sleep over my wife's involvement.

I know quite a few of the local NWTA members are actively searching the web looking for stories such as this one to discredit or whatever. So, mods if you wish, I will send you a pm with my personal info and my permission to forward it as you see fit. Provided it is deemed appropriate. However, I will not blindly leave myself open by replying to pm's etc. Like I said, I don't shy away from conrontation, but I don't see the point in seeking it out either.

bigboyx5, I hope things work out for you. I am not aware of any MKP/Woman Within forums that are open to the public. I do remember finding some info quite a while ago on yagoogroups. Search MKP/NWTA etc. Those forums now seem to be closed, or the ones open don't have much on them. When my husband was involved in MKP the chat forum that he was a part of was "closed" to the public and you had to be a member and have a password.

I wish you and your loved ones well.