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I do have a couple of requests for clarification:

1. Your narrative of your own experience of the NWTA, dated 2/15/2007, which took place in 1993, states that you left the training late Friday night. Your narrative of the entire NWTA that you posted today, with comparisons to excerpts from Dr. Singer's "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties," does not draw a clear distinction between your own experiences and other accounts from which you draw. I'm not looking for formal footnotes, but I think our communication would be improved if we were both clear about what we have experienced, what we have witnessed, and what we have been told.

I tried to be very clear about what was from my experience and what is based on the manual summary found on other pages of this section of the board. Please double check my post and see what I can clear up for you. I'm happy to do that. I agree, we are best being clear on what is what.

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2. In "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties," the examples to which Dr. Singer refers--"Soviet and Chinese thought reform and behavior control practices" and the cases of "Kirk" and "Beverly"--all stretch out over weeks, months, or, in Beverly's case, years. Did Dr. Singer ever apply these categories to a program or programs that were less than 48 hours in length? Has anyone else with credentials comparable to Dr. Singer's done so?

Not that I am aware of, but I feel that her study of groups in general would apply. Be aware that MKP is not [i:e5b3e79e3d]just[/i:e5b3e79e3d] a one weekend thing, but then there are follow up meetings, integration groups they are called, where another fee is paid and the person meets with others who have been on the weekends to discuss further the experience and how to make what they 'learned' on the weekend part of their way of living. (This is public knowledge also found at [www.mankindproject.com]

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3. I have no problem working from "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties" first, but I was hoping to introduce this message board to Dr. Singer's "How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults." ([u:e5b3e79e3d]http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_marine.htm[/u:e5b3e79e3d][/color:e5b3e79e3d]) Rich Tosi, one of the founders of the NWTA, had been a longtime officer in the Marine Corps and was for a time at Parris Island, the Marine recruit training center. I have heard from a variety of internal MKP sources that much of the tone and some of the content of the Friday night section of the NWTA--which you found objectionable, and for good reason, since you were not aware of what you were getting yourself into--comes from Rich's Marine experience.

I understand your thoughts on using that text, I felt that since the question was not if MKP or NWTA is a military group, but more Cult or Influence Group that her other study was applicable.

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One more thing for now--Bill Kauth is not a psychiatrist, he has a master's degree in psychology.

Noted, thank you. Big difference. From his on-line photos he has changed quite a bit since my encounter with him, but that's him. I guess we all age.. beats the alterative.

Bigboy.. did you see this?

To [b:27e8fcc15a]bigboyx5[/b:27e8fcc15a]:

I applaud your interest in scholarly research on the effects of the New Warrior Training Adventure. I used to have a chapter (pre-publication) on just that topic on the hard drive of a different computer, but apparently I didn't get it transferred.

Half the research team had done the NWTA, half had not. There were 100 subjects who were interviewed before they did the NWTA, immediately afterward, and again 18 months later. From what I remember, there was an improvement of attitudes toward women and of several measurements of emotional health immediately after the training; the attitudes toward women persisted; some of the other improvements persisted and others did not. I might be mistaken.

However, you don't have to accept my (probably faulty) recollection: That chapter has since been published as Chapter 12 of [i:27e8fcc15a]Mythopoetic Perspectives of Men's Healing Work: An Anthology for Therapists and Others[/i:27e8fcc15a], which is available on amazon.com for $118. That price sounds high, but it's typical for scholarly publications with a small readership.

You can see a few pages from the book here: [www.questia.com]; the whole thing can be downloaded. Questia.com is not a free service, but offers a "no-risk free trial subscription"--their words. I have no personal experience of what that means.

Christopher Burke, who was on that team, wrote about the study in his dissertation, which can be found online here:

[www.hsrc.ac.za]

I warn you, it's 356 pages long and far more technical than the anthology that I just cited. Lacking a college-level background in statistics, I found most of the few pages I scanned incomprehensible. Burke does list his publications, presentations, and reports at the beginning, most of which were developed by teams of researchers and seem to be on related topics--if you want to track them down, those may be more understandable for the non-specialist.

Note to NotOneOfThem: I'll do my best to get back to you sometime today or this evening.

NotOneOfThem, I wanted to say that your discussion of points raised by the celebrated Margaret Thaler Singer and your comments about those points really “hit home” for me. IE: I felt it in my gut.

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Horse stated 1. Your narrative of your own experience of the NWTA, dated 2/15/2007, which took place in 1993, states that you left the training late Friday night. Your narrative of the entire NWTA that you posted today, with comparisons to excerpts from Dr. Singer's "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties," does not draw a clear distinction between your own experiences and other accounts from which you draw.

Horse’s statement was in a way saying that you don’t know what you are talking about as you did not stay the full weekend. All of your points were in line with what my husband explained to me about his NWTA weekend. When I received the NWTA manual I had my husband read it and he told me that pretty much the weekend was as the manual read. Your explanation of the points seem fairly accurate to me.

As well another person posted previously why MKP was in line with the LGAT "cult" guidlines after a request to discuss these "points" were made.

[board.culteducation.com]

I cannot then find where MKP members asking for this discussion had any reasonable follow up in regards to the post. Just the one thing that I have been noticing that MKP members are good at, changing the direction of the conversation.

The question was asked

Did Dr. Singer ever apply these categories to a program or programs that were less than 48 hours in length?

From her book "Cults in our midst"

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On federal court orders, I have attended six large group awareness trining sessions (sponsored by several of the known LGAT organizations)

She then goes on to talk about how most of these programs are made up of hightly scripted, standardized procedures. MKP fits her description of an LGAT.

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During this process the prospective recruit is re-educated and will abandon the precepts he has learnt from life for the “truth” or “enlightenment” offered by the group. In some cults this is done over a long period of time; Other cults can bring about this change within 48 hours.

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The highly confrontational and psychological aspects generally are not mentioned beforehand.

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The program trainers and leaders typically get agreement from participants that they will not tell anyone about the processes that occur. To do so "will spoil it for your friends, family, co-workers when they take the course. Tell them what you got out of it."

EXACT words from my husband after his weekend, I can not tell you what happend, I can tell you what I got out of the weekend. HIS EXACT WORDS!!!! As well as then a push for me to go to "Woman Within" so that I "would get it" and "be able to do my work".

[www.hsrc.ac.za]

The problem with this dissertation is that Burke is associated with MKP and has a conflict of interest.

Please understand that I am NOT a trained psychologist nor have any experience other than my own research, but Burke's paper has a couple of items I would like to point out (I'm not done checking refs yet or double checking). Several times in the text it mentions that individuals who have had previous experience with 12 step programs responding favorably to the weekends, then in the methods section (table 2) it states that 70% of the group had been in such programs (I cannot remember if it said recent or not). The life changing experience category is similar. It also states that the research group (including author) was composed of three MKP graduates (male), 1 non MKP male and 2 women, this could potentially tilt discussions towards dominance by the MKP members, especially since the author earlier describes the eroding of the male's role and value system in present society

It also states on page 125 that a suitable control group was unavailable.

I found the comment that Mr. Kauth is developing a "Matrix style" weekend aimed at younger men unsettling (P 127).

Does anyone know of the "certification process" mentioned to become an elder?

Page 139 mentions an "intense and impactful" weekend, but does not delve into the extent of the methods used on trainees.

Please read the letter on page 182 as well, it describes the MKP members on the panel as "fully trusted and men of integrity".

In the follow-up letters, the author opens by clearly identifying himself with the MKP. Could this influence the respondant's honesty?

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It also states on page 125 that a suitable control group was unavailable.

Most studies, that are trying to validate a point in a scientific manner would have a control group. Even medicine studies use a placibo.

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Does anyone know of the "certification process" mentioned to become an elder?

I'd be very suprised to find that anyone will disclose that, as MKP is a closed orgranization.

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Page 139 mentions an "intense and impactful" weekend, but does not delve into the extent of the methods used on trainees.

My guess is that the author was required to sign a non-disclosure agreement and kept to it. If you would like a summary of what goes on, see the first few pages of this sub-forum and you can find them spread over several messages. The orignal manual was posted, but MKP threatened a lawsuit and it was reduced to a "Fair-Use" summary.

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Please read the letter on page 182 as well, it describes the MKP members on the panel as "fully trusted and men of integrity".

Very much like how much else is disclosed. Vague answers.

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In the follow-up letters, the author opens by clearly identifying himself with the MKP. Could this influence the respondant's honesty?

Very much so! I mean, it would be like a criminal doing an investigation saying in the end, they didn't do it.. oh, sorry, that has been done, and the American people bought it. (I know, off topic.. sorry.. won't happen again.)

I'm sure with a little digging, one could find papers published supporting the works of Landmark Education and other similar "Marathon" type groups.

A paper published by a serving member of an organization extolling its virtues is obviously not something I would consider credible.

Joe1 wrote "I echo that the ManKind project can be dangerous. If it is taken by somebody who is not psychologically fit or in serious therapy. It can be destructive and should not be taken by people in this situation."

Exactly why I feel open recruitment by this group is wrong.

As far as a licensed therapist promoting this weekend, I have absolutley no problem with it provided the individual has had enough sessions with the therapist to warrant the recommendation. I fail to see how handing a pamphlet and having someone fill out a questionnaire qualifies as screening. If a professional refers someone in an official capacity, why is it that no one is willing to come forward with a signed and dated referral recommending the NWTA? I would hope an ethical professional would stand by their decision. Such a document would go a very long way to convince skeptics, would it not?

If Mr. Kauth has a masters degree, why has this work never been verified or addressed by the APA?

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence both (+ and -) but very little in the way of actual facts.

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NotOneOfThem
My response to being placed in a dark room for hours was 1: Disorientation of time. (Part of the manuals call for keeping the initiate off balance) Wondering what the hell any of what I had experience so far had to do with being a man, and if this was what 'being a man' was about, I wanted no part of it. Why had I paid $300.00 to experience the hostility, searches, and what could be [u:ada789ceb4]legally seen as false imprisonment.[/u:ada789ceb4]

I agree with you that being put in a room for hours is beyond what I would consider acceptable and I would leave. If you would have been prevented from leaving, then I agree that it is false imprisonment. I really think the degree of the experience has changed since you participated in the weekend. What you describe as your experience I would not have liked.

I do have a question however. If the dark room experience had been for 20 to 30 to 40 minutes and you had not been forced to stand (though silence was maintained). Would it have been a tremendously negative thing for you?

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NotOneOfThem
Tell me again how that is empowering?

I don't think the event (sitting in dark room) unto itself is empowering, it is the combination of events mixed together that build upon each other that provide an overall experience is what was empowering for me. Just like a recipe, basil alone is not a meal, but when combined with pasta and tomatoes produces the desired response.

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NotOneOfThem
Actually, Soncio, that is [u:ada789ceb4]exactly[/u:ada789ceb4] how they are advertised. We do not say that when the weekend is over you will have experienced any particualar thing. It is "Come join us at <Location> to get away and do what you need to do for your self." We do not say that when it is over you will be something different. We do not take away identies and re-form the person into something else or give them a different name.

MKP calls the 'training adventure' an 'initiation into manhood'. And, that, Soncio is a implied result. Landmark education does the same thing.

Never disagreed that MKP advertised a result. While silent retreat isn't describing a discrete result as MKP, Silent Retreat is implying a positive result from self-introspection. But that is just semantics. The root allegation is that since NTWA claims a result and some other place, Landmark, claims a result, they are the same and are both bad. I fail to follow your logic for why claiming a result is bad. Drivers training classes claim results.