Quote
I do have a couple of requests for clarification:
1. Your narrative of your own experience of the NWTA, dated 2/15/2007, which took place in 1993, states that you left the training late Friday night. Your narrative of the entire NWTA that you posted today, with comparisons to excerpts from Dr. Singer's "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties," does not draw a clear distinction between your own experiences and other accounts from which you draw. I'm not looking for formal footnotes, but I think our communication would be improved if we were both clear about what we have experienced, what we have witnessed, and what we have been told.
Quote
2. In "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties," the examples to which Dr. Singer refers--"Soviet and Chinese thought reform and behavior control practices" and the cases of "Kirk" and "Beverly"--all stretch out over weeks, months, or, in Beverly's case, years. Did Dr. Singer ever apply these categories to a program or programs that were less than 48 hours in length? Has anyone else with credentials comparable to Dr. Singer's done so?
Quote
3. I have no problem working from "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties" first, but I was hoping to introduce this message board to Dr. Singer's "How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults." ([u:e5b3e79e3d]http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_marine.htm[/u:e5b3e79e3d][/color:e5b3e79e3d]) Rich Tosi, one of the founders of the NWTA, had been a longtime officer in the Marine Corps and was for a time at Parris Island, the Marine recruit training center. I have heard from a variety of internal MKP sources that much of the tone and some of the content of the Friday night section of the NWTA--which you found objectionable, and for good reason, since you were not aware of what you were getting yourself into--comes from Rich's Marine experience.
Quote
One more thing for now--Bill Kauth is not a psychiatrist, he has a master's degree in psychology.
Quote
Horse stated 1. Your narrative of your own experience of the NWTA, dated 2/15/2007, which took place in 1993, states that you left the training late Friday night. Your narrative of the entire NWTA that you posted today, with comparisons to excerpts from Dr. Singer's "Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties," does not draw a clear distinction between your own experiences and other accounts from which you draw.
Quote
On federal court orders, I have attended six large group awareness trining sessions (sponsored by several of the known LGAT organizations)
Quote
During this process the prospective recruit is re-educated and will abandon the precepts he has learnt from life for the “truth” or “enlightenment” offered by the group. In some cults this is done over a long period of time; Other cults can bring about this change within 48 hours.
Quote
The highly confrontational and psychological aspects generally are not mentioned beforehand.
Quote
The program trainers and leaders typically get agreement from participants that they will not tell anyone about the processes that occur. To do so "will spoil it for your friends, family, co-workers when they take the course. Tell them what you got out of it."
Most studies, that are trying to validate a point in a scientific manner would have a control group. Even medicine studies use a placibo.Quote
It also states on page 125 that a suitable control group was unavailable.
I'd be very suprised to find that anyone will disclose that, as MKP is a closed orgranization.Quote
Does anyone know of the "certification process" mentioned to become an elder?
My guess is that the author was required to sign a non-disclosure agreement and kept to it. If you would like a summary of what goes on, see the first few pages of this sub-forum and you can find them spread over several messages. The orignal manual was posted, but MKP threatened a lawsuit and it was reduced to a "Fair-Use" summary.Quote
Page 139 mentions an "intense and impactful" weekend, but does not delve into the extent of the methods used on trainees.
Very much like how much else is disclosed. Vague answers.Quote
Please read the letter on page 182 as well, it describes the MKP members on the panel as "fully trusted and men of integrity".
Quote
In the follow-up letters, the author opens by clearly identifying himself with the MKP. Could this influence the respondant's honesty?
I agree with you that being put in a room for hours is beyond what I would consider acceptable and I would leave. If you would have been prevented from leaving, then I agree that it is false imprisonment. I really think the degree of the experience has changed since you participated in the weekend. What you describe as your experience I would not have liked.Quote
NotOneOfThem
My response to being placed in a dark room for hours was 1: Disorientation of time. (Part of the manuals call for keeping the initiate off balance) Wondering what the hell any of what I had experience so far had to do with being a man, and if this was what 'being a man' was about, I wanted no part of it. Why had I paid $300.00 to experience the hostility, searches, and what could be [u:ada789ceb4]legally seen as false imprisonment.[/u:ada789ceb4]
I don't think the event (sitting in dark room) unto itself is empowering, it is the combination of events mixed together that build upon each other that provide an overall experience is what was empowering for me. Just like a recipe, basil alone is not a meal, but when combined with pasta and tomatoes produces the desired response.Quote
NotOneOfThem
Tell me again how that is empowering?
Never disagreed that MKP advertised a result. While silent retreat isn't describing a discrete result as MKP, Silent Retreat is implying a positive result from self-introspection. But that is just semantics. The root allegation is that since NTWA claims a result and some other place, Landmark, claims a result, they are the same and are both bad. I fail to follow your logic for why claiming a result is bad. Drivers training classes claim results.Quote
NotOneOfThem
Actually, Soncio, that is [u:ada789ceb4]exactly[/u:ada789ceb4] how they are advertised. We do not say that when the weekend is over you will have experienced any particualar thing. It is "Come join us at <Location> to get away and do what you need to do for your self." We do not say that when it is over you will be something different. We do not take away identies and re-form the person into something else or give them a different name.
MKP calls the 'training adventure' an 'initiation into manhood'. And, that, Soncio is a implied result. Landmark education does the same thing.