Greatdane, welcome. I do believe some groups seem to have better programs than others. Maybe you are in one of the better groups, which is why you have not experienced or seen some of the stuff that has been written here. So my question to you is why you went looking, and found this site. Was it simply curiosity?

I can only speak for myself, but I could not be involved with a group that has the potential to do as much damage as MKP has. Your group appears to be non-damaging, but that is not to mean it will stay that way.

I do believe the "carpet work" has immense potential to harm some men. Any great secrets in a man's life, being brought out by non-professionals, can be very dangerous. As long as MKP states they are an educational group, they are denying what they are really about. Any way you look at them, they are a therapeutic group. IMO, they are performing therapy on men, without any form of regulation. That is not only wrong, it is dangerous.

Go to the forum "cults and how they affect families" on this site. There is also another good thread on MKP.

I do appreciate your approach here. You were not attacking or ridiculing the members here. Sadly, you are one of the very few men in MKP who has come here with an open mind to at least acknowledge there has been harm done by MKP. Usually we are all called liars. Thank you.

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what2do
"You may now reach over and grab your "brother's" d**k. If he does not want this, he may remove your hand."

There is something very, very sick with this group.

When I attended the intro. seminar I asked four things:

1/ would I be physically safe?

2/ would I be mentally safe?

3/ was nakedness involved?

4/ were sexual activities involved?

Whilst they did not state 'yes' or 'no' they told me categorically that I had nothing to worry about - that is I would not get hurt.

Only afterwards did I find out that they had lied and mislead me consistentely. How does that engender integrity, love, and respect for one's fellow men?

In the sweat lodge situation if anyone had touched my d$ck without my permission he'd have had a hard kick in the place where its hurts most. This is more than sexual abuse. For all we know any man showing a weakness could be taken to one side and anally raped bythe staff. Who would believe him? He would had signed the Contract to release MKP staff from the effects of physical and mental abuse. There would have been no come back against the organisation.

Greatdane, I want to say thank you for showing respect to those of us who feel that our families have been harmed by MKP. As what2do stated, many MKPers sign up here, and then verbally bash us, or call us liars or both.

I as well feel that you have been lucky with your NWTA and I-Group from your statements. I agree that some of these I-Groups may not be as harmful as others. Notice the as harmful statement; I truly do not feel that any of these groups are "healthy" for a person’s mental stability in the long run.

I would ask of you, what have you accomplished in your life since MKP, which creates a feeling of wellbeing and contentment with your life? Why, after being in MKP for so long (therapy) do you still feel the need to continue? Another words, what has this group "accomplished" for you that you could not have accomplished on your own? How have they helped you become a better man? Do you see your community as viewing you as a better man, and not your community of MKP, but, family, friends, coworkers etc? How do you view women and their roles in your life compared to before MKP? Do you ever have the feeling of needing to “check in” when you have an issue come up in your life instead of just thinking on your own and acting?

It has been some time since my husband left MKP, he is beginning to understand the techniques used on him, and be able to view that part of our life with true honesty and clear headedness. What he tells me, is that for quite some time after his NWTA (he did not realize this then), was that he felt he was in an altered state of being, that he felt he was in what is called a "Bi-Polar High" and my husband does not have Bi-Polar. He feels that they created a mental change in him that was not healthy to him or our relationship.

I will say that the upheaval this group has caused in our life has made us take a step back, look, and see where we want to better our relationship, to truly be healthier in how we are with each other and how we view each other. So, I can definitely say we are better because of MKP, but not because MKP was “good” for us. We are better because of the damage they caused, which made us stop and think about where we truly wanted our relationship to go. I guess an analogy would be if one of us almost died the feeling that would create within us about how much we truly care for each other.

As well as the "strain" on our relationship, it has put a wall between him and his sister, as well as between him and his step mom. I am hoping that they can overcome this and create a better relationship as he and I are.

Our children as well were "confused" over their daddy's change in behavior and personality. He was never abusive to them, though he was very verbally abusive to me (which he had never ever been before).

For our children to see their parents constantly fighting over every thing caused "fear" within them as to "what was going to happen". For them to all of a sudden see their dad treating me as he did was very confusing and harmful to their emotional well being. We are still working towards assuring them that they are loved and that “things will be well”.

See, what MKP created for us, was damaging not only to my husband and I, but to our children. For that, I can never forgive MKP for what they do to men’s psyches.

My children went from a household where their parents talked to each other, to a household where anytime mom had a thought or opinion of her own, dad screamed at her.

We were teaching our children by example, that women should never have an opinion, and that men were the only ones with a right to “be”. We were teaching our son by example, to treat women with disrespect and to dishonor them, we were teaching our daughter, that she was not allowed to stand up for her thoughts and feelings.

One thing that made my husband stop and think was when I asked him, is this how you want your daughter to feel she deserves to be treated by her husband when she grows up? Is this really how you want your son to treat his wife when he grows up? We were as well teaching our children by example, to be dishonest with their life partners when they grow up, we were teaching them by example that it is a good thing to keep secrets from the people you love. I asked my husband, is this behavior what you really want to teach our children?

So, I guess for me, with everything "being said and done", the one thing I can never forgive, is the pain, loss of self esteem and confusion that was created in my children.

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greatdane
Thank you for your information. I understand that some groups in similar circumstances may respond by blaiming the victim. Never would I respond that way and never would I support any man within my circle to respond that way. The complaints I've read today make me sad because I can envision how some men may put their own twist on things or say what they want to say in order to get people to do what they want (coerce?) For instance, it's my understanding that the carpool arrangement was put in place to give men the opportunity to begin to get to know another person with whom they'll be sharing this experience from the beginning. It also gives these men an opportunity to reflect on the weekend as they ride home together. I would NEVER lie and say it's because there isn't enough parking.

My goal here is to learn more about MKP from other sources and to share some of the things I've seen -- both good and bad. I can share only from my experience. (So I'll try not to talk in extreme "always" and "never" terms.)

I've gotten so much good from my experience, but I still since something underlying. That's why I feel blessed to have worked with such a strong group of men who have mentored me from the beginning and taught me to be a man among men.

Best to all -- Peace -- greatdane

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what2do
So my question to you is why you went looking, and found this site. Was it simply curiosity?

Actually, I came across a very well written article praising the benefits of MKP and the author made a note that there some folks who don't feel so kindly about the program which could be found by doing some simple web searching. I did some research because, to be honest, I can't think of much to say regarding negative parts of the experience. I came across this information and found it fascinating. I'm not surprised about the manual of information that was shared earlier in the thread discussing the weekend set up -- I've been on both sides of the weekend as an initiate and a staff member. The weekend is very well orchestrated -- and with my ADD, it served me especially well. :D

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ginah
I would ask of you, what have you accomplished in your life since MKP, which creates a feeling of wellbeing and contentment with your life?

First and foremost, I have been able to accept that the lack of male guidance in my life did play a part in my lack of ability to relate to men in a mature, loving, selfless way. In the past, my relationships with men were for personal or professional gain and nothing else. I lacked any ability to relate to men outside of formal social/professional settings. These interactions became so uncomfortable that my choice was to isolate rather than partipate in any type of event that involved interacting with men with no specific cause of which I was knowledgable. Today, I can relate to men on any level. I've let the group of men from my NWTA and my I-Group help me by modeling healthy male relationships. What it's like to have another man to encourage, co-create, and constructively criticize my vision and affirmation for life. Things that my own father or uncles had no time or interest. My reality was that I was sitting isolated still waiting for my dad/uncles to come along and say: It's time...we're now ready to be your male role models. That's what I wanted in my core being -- my little boy needed that -- but in reality I knew it wouldn't happen. My brothers in MKP modeled what those relationships should and can be like in my life. My primary issue going into my weekend was my constant physical/emotion exhaustion -- and what I realized was that it was all created and delivered upon myself through the energies I spent further isolating myself. Now I've learned to channel my energy in ways that allow me to connect with other men and learn how to become a better man through their modeling and share experiences of how I've become a better man through my own triumphs that meant little to me until I realized that they were of great value to another man dealing with a similar painful issue.

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ginah
Why, after being in MKP for so long (therapy) do you still feel the need to continue?

I was initiated in October of 2004. My first I-Group was from Jan through Mar of 2005, afterwhich, the members disbanded to combine with other I-Groups. I stayed involved by attending some open circles and a graduation. After moving away from Chicago, I moved to a new area of the country, where time really did not lend itself well to I-Groups. I did maintain regular communication with my MKP "Mentor". He and I still talk a couple of times a week and it's a relationship I value among one of the best I have in my life. I recently staffed a weekend here in the Indiana area and have rejoined the I-Group of this new group of initiates, which has been such a blessing. I have not been involved in MKP non-stop, all-day/every-day -- I couldn't do that -- it would drive me crazy. When I'm there, I'm fully present to deal with issues at hand. But when I focus on other issues, I may take lessons I've learned throughout I-Groups or NWTAs, but MKP is not my primary focus.

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ginah
How have they helped you become a better man?

I'm a better man today because I see that today I am a man. I'm not a boy in a man's body trying to get by living on excuses and blaming others for not having set me up with a better life. I no longer blame others for my alcoholism, my drug addiction, or career -- I'm entitled to nothing in this world. Before doing the NWTA and IGroups, I still lived with a sense of entitlement -- "If you had is as bad as me...you would deserve XXXXX too." Then when I didn't get what I was entitled to, I had every reason to rage and be bitter and fight. Today, I realize that my first responsibility is to clean up myself and my side of the street -- and then to help out the next man/woman.

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ginah
Do you see your community as viewing you as a better man, and not your community of MKP, but, family, friends, coworkers etc?

Yes -- my family knows I am more that I am more honest, reliable, and dependable. Friends today know that if I make a commitment, they know I will be there. And they also know that if something comes up to conflict with that commitment that it is indeed something significant. In the past -- I wouldn't have even thought about making a call to let them know I wouldn't make it. My co-workers know that I'm a teamplayer and I don't seek invidual praise for anything we're working on -- I seek recognition for the group.

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ginah
How do you view women and their roles in your life compared to before MKP?

As a single man, probably the most significant relationship with a woman in my life was with my mom, who died about 9 months after I completed my NWTA. She was thrilled to see how much I had gotten out of the weekend and I-Groups. She loved to see that I was getting to make a lot of friends and participating in groups that weren't centered around drinking or sex clubs or some type of debauchery. Mostly she loved seeing the change in confidence that I displayed. The last time she and spoke, she commented that she was grateful that she had been able to see her "boy become a man."

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ginah
Do you ever have the feeling of needing to “check in” when you have an issue come up in your life instead of just thinking on your own and acting?

Sure I have that feeling -- but it's dependent on the issue at hand. If it's between making a decision on 2 job opportunities, I would definitely check-in with someone to help me see what I may be missing and how "my shadow" my be overreacting to one area that is not as big a deal as I've lead myself to believe. If it's to decide what to do with a free night, I can figure that out all on my own. If it's to prepare for a conversation that could result in 2 very different results -- sure I will. I guess for me, the point is that I make my own decisions. I usually will check in with any trusted person in my life -- MKP or non-MKP -- to get feedback and see whether additional information presented should/will impact my decision. Based on the question you pose, I have an image of someone picking up the phone and saying: "Should I have toast or cereal for breakfast?" "Should I wear red or blue?" "Should I goto the Wal-Mart or Target?" That too me would be exhausting for me and for whomever would be on the other end of the those calls. UGH -- SHOOT ME NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think I've done this Quote thing properaly. I really enjoy chatting with you and being asked questions that challenge me to think about what it is that I actually get from my participation. More shall definitely be revealed.

what2do -- what has happened with your son's expressed interest?
ginah -- i honor your persistence
for you both -- i'll say an extra prayer for your families.

PEACE -- Great Dane --

[b:c91539d9b9][Moderator note: Please don't post personal contact information here. After 10 approved messages you will receive private messaging ability][/b:c91539d9b9]

Have you ever attended the weekend? Where do your judgements come from? It sounds to me that there are some men that had a bad experience and are spreading bad information around about this group.

Are you serious?

Read the thread before making such sweeping statements here.

There is firsthand information and excerpted material from the MKP manual.

I wonder if any of you have attended a New Warrior weekend. Sounds to me that a man had a bad experience and is now bad mouthing the group.

Again, read the thread from the beginning.

Apparently quite a few people have had bad experiences and have posted here.

It sounds like you really are not interested in the information available through this thread and instead just want to defend the group.

Ginah, I appreciate you posting the article about the Woman Within weekend, but I believe the article would have meant more to me if the journalist would have stayed for the entire weekend. To me, by leaving before it's completion, she doesn't have very much ground to make judgements upon. It's like reading the beginning of a thesis... watching the beginning of a movie and leaving the theatre when it's all starting to come together. I wouldn't put much faith in an article or movie review if the person didn't have all the facts to make their judgements.

Don't get me wrong, I've appreciated the post...

I don't have to see a full documentary on the holocaust to understand that it was a horrible undertaking by many people. I can easily read part of a document to understand how sick the whole thing was. Same with MKP and Woman Within, I don't have to go and stay the full weekend to understand how damaging it is.

Their have been several movies in my life that I have gone to see, walked out part way through, and been able to come to a true conclusion about whether the movie was "good or not". I did not have to stay throughout the full movie to know that I did not like it, and was not going to waste more of my time viewing it.

The woman was smart to leave, as she stated "she found herself crying along with everyone else". If she had stayed, she most likely would have become embroiled within the group as the techniques are meant to cause emotional breakdowns.

I do not understand how you can read the information about these groups, live through and have concerns in regards to your husband and his beliefs about keeping secrets etc, and not realize how damaging these groups can be.

If you did not know your husband before MKP, you were probably "picked" by him because something in your psyche, reactions to him told him that "you would be a good MKP wife". That was not a "put down" of who you are, just a way of creating thinking on your own and questioning of "issues". I would ask you, how comfortable with yourself, who you were, where your life was going before you met your husband? How strong were you, in WHO YOU ARE, when you met your husband? Were you a full of life person, or lonely? Was your life full of friends and family? Were you career bound or just working a job?

I would urge you to work with a trained counselor/psychologist before you make a decision to go to "woman within". I do not know if you read my comment on the other thread about me taking all the info I could find to the largest and most respected team of counselors/therapist/psychologist in my city and their opinions. But, if I were you, and reading these sites, I would not take lightely the opinions of professionals and the damage these groups have caused many families.

Good Luck to you and your search for understanding and happiness. I truly understand in a small way how you feel, as I almost gave in and went to woman within to save my marriage. I went through a time of "well, if the only way my husband will love me again is if I become the good little brainwashed wife, then that is what I will do", but, sigh, I am a strong willed person and comfortable with who I am. I had to learn at a very young age to stand up for who I am, my thoughts and beliefs, or get controlled and abused by others. I don't "break" easily. I listen to my instincts, I listen to my "gut reactions", and then I choose. I rarely let another person "force" me to go against my instincts, and usually when I do, I am sorry for that. I urge you, listen to your instincts that brought you to this site.

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erin3246
Ginah, I appreciate you posting the article about the Woman Within weekend, but I believe the article would have meant more to me if the journalist would have stayed for the entire weekend. To me, by leaving before it's completion, she doesn't have very much ground to make judgements upon. It's like reading the beginning of a thesis... watching the beginning of a movie and leaving the theatre when it's all starting to come together. I wouldn't put much faith in an article or movie review if the person didn't have all the facts to make their judgements.

Don't get me wrong, I've appreciated the post...