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Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by: dzigntank ()
Date: November 21, 2006 09:09AM

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Often I think this way, but she is an excellent singer for my group, I like working with her, and, very importantly, she has never badgered me about attending Landmark. In the 18 months during which she has been in Landmark she made a total of two invitations. So if it weren't for my previous experience with Lifespring I might not even be concerned about her involvement with Landmark.

nothing has even happened, and many are postulating and judging how much trouble this person is or might be.


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I wouldn't trust for a minute a Landmarker's not taking advantage of whatever situation they can to recruit other people into Landmark. The fact that she is still involved with them is evidence that she has swallowed the Kool-Aid. Her identity is all wrapped up in them and her success is predicated on how persuasive she can be in bringing people in.

quite a judgement.

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Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: November 21, 2006 09:16AM

Landmark does have a pretty horrible history.

See [www.culteducation.com]

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Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by: dzigntank ()
Date: November 22, 2006 01:43AM

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Landmark does have a pretty horrible history.

the same could be said about races.

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Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by: elena ()
Date: November 22, 2006 03:46AM

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dzigntank
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Landmark does have a pretty horrible history.

the same could be said about races.


What? Horse races? Foot races? Political races?

What's your point dzigntank?

Anybody can say anything. So what?

In order to evaluate a statement, an assertion, or a proposition, you need a functioning brain -- one that does not turn away from the negative, derision, scepticism, observation, questioning, scrutiny, analysis, or FEEDBACK FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD. In other words, you need to think critically -- and then test your assumptions by listening to what other critical thinkers have said or what you observe in the outside world. Landmark "programming" handicaps your ability to do this. The only "knowledge" that matters to a Landmarker comes from within Landmark. Landmark becomes a prism through which the rest of the world is seen and followers slowly lose touch with reality. That's another way of saying they go "crazy." There are thoughtful and intelligent posters here who know Landmark from the inside who will tell you as much.


Ellen

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Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by: ajinajan ()
Date: November 22, 2006 03:57AM

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nothing has even happened, and many are postulating and judging how much trouble this person is or might be.

"nothing has ever happened"

This is an altered view of reality and history.

Ellen, it would be best for you and all others to simply attempt to ignore "dzigntank" and continue on encouraging others in the Landmark "assisting" volunteer unpaid labor program to come forward and report their experiences to the United States Department of Labor, contact your local politicians and State Attorney's General, get more information about the for-profit company out there on the Web, and expose the Truth.

Only in this manner will they eventually face consequences for their actions, as they have in France, Belgium, Sweden and Switzerland....

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Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by: dzigntank ()
Date: November 22, 2006 05:47AM

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"nothing has ever happened This is an altered view of reality and history. "

i was referring to the specific topic at hand with the band and the lead singer. sorry for the confusion.

elena, good stuff. my point is simply, yes, there is bad history. there is bad history on any group. as far as THIS situation is concerned, the band and the lead singer, SHE has done nothing to warrant the judgements you are giving.

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Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: November 22, 2006 05:52AM

dzigntank:

Read the history, it's not like any group.

Very serious stuff.

If she is deeply involved with Landmark she will be "volunteering" for them, even though it is not a charity and instead a privately owned for profit company.

Then she may keep enrolling for course after course and keep talking about it.

Then comes the recruitment pitch for you to take courses, attend a "graduation," which is a sales pitch.

Beware.

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Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by: concernedfriend ()
Date: December 12, 2006 11:50AM

Today I sent the following letter to the singer in my band:

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I’m writing you to tell you that despite how much I enjoy working with you, despite how talented I feel you are as a singer, and despite how much as I like you personally, I am experiencing a serious conflict about hiring you for the upcoming performance, for the following reasons: 1) Your continuing participation in Landmark, 2) The name that you have adopted, and 3) Your lack of response to my previous letter. I’ll explain my concerns in reverse order as clearly as I am able to do.

[b:005fed385b]3) Your lack of response to my previous letter[/b:005fed385b]
In my previous letter to you, dated September 11th, to which I gave a great deal of careful thought, I told you how much I missed performing with you, I told you about my shock at hearing that you wouldn’t do the (name of first gig omitted) and (name of second gig omitted) gigs, I told you some about my view of Landmark and its similarity to Lifespring, I told you about how I sometimes wonder whether I could have done anything that would prevented you from getting involved with Landmark, and I told you about my difficulty with your new name. I put a lot of time and thought and concern and myself into that letter. You told me you were moved by my letter, and we met and talked for four hours about nothing in my letter except the fact that I missed performing with you (and that you missed performing with me), but we did not discuss any of the other subjects I had raised. Afterwards I realized that I did not raise them during our four-hour talk because I find them so difficult, and so I asked you to write a letter in response, to which you agreed. When it came time to deliver your letter you said that you had nothing to say, explaining that you didn’t want to relive your life. It really wasn’t OK with me that you would not respond to what I had so carefully and thoughtfully written. It also seemed out of character for you, in that I have found you to always be interested in communication.

[b:005fed385b]2) The name that you have adopted[/b:005fed385b]
To repeat what I said in my previous letter, whenever I encounter your name...(several sentences omitted to preserve the anonymity of myself and the singer)… I also wonder from what language your new name is taken, which I asked you some time ago but you never told me. I appreciate that your adoption of a new name represents a significant event in your life, and I have been and I continue to be curious about what the new name means for you. At the same time I wonder why you have chosen to abandon the beautiful name your parents gave you. In the context of my group, I have been concerned that your adoption of a single name without a family name will be viewed by people as an attempt to call attention to yourself through your name rather than for how you sing, how you look, how you move, and who your are.

[b:005fed385b]1) Your continuing participation in Landmark[/b:005fed385b]
This is the most serious of my concerns, and the one that I have avoided discussing directly because of how difficult I find the subject. In my previous letter I wrote that I was not finding as much to say to you as I thought I would. Now I know what I was missing.

Since telling you my Lifespring story in the fall of 2004, I have assumed you understood my view of Lifespring and other similar organizations, such as Landmark. I suspect that my assumption may have been incorrect, for two reasons: 1) I never explicitly told you my view, and 2) More than once you have said that you knew I had a bad experience in Lifespring, and you said it in such as way as to suggest that Lifespring and other such organizations might work for some people and not for others. My view of these organizations, based on my own experience and my research about them, is that they use people in a way I consider abusive. I know that everyone involved is encouraged to enroll everyone with whom they come into contact, and the natural course of events is that life within the organization grows while contact with anyone outside the organization diminishes. As far as I know, when I told you my Lifespring story, you were not yet involved with, or even considering involvement with, Landmark. When I first learned that you had become involved with Landmark I felt the threat your involvement implied for my working with you: that you would become unavailable for the group because you would be so busy with Landmark, or that I would have to dismiss you for attempting to enroll me and everyone else in the group. I also felt disappointed that you hadn’t taken advantage of what I had shared with you about the negative effect that Lifespring had on my life. It seems that you interpreted my story as an isolated example of a negative outcome of Lifespring, with the fault lying either with me or with Lifespring. In fact, Lifespring was successful in getting me to abandon my ability to think critically and to become an unpaid volunteer by taking advantage of my desire to be helpful to other people. As a result I worked countless hours without pay while bringing in revenue for Lifespring, all under the guise of helping other people. You once told me that Landmark and Lifespring are not the same. I recognize that they’re not identical, but they are similar in important ways, and that similarity is what concerns me.

Based on what you told me directly and through your email newsletter, I understand that while you are no longer planning to become a Landmark Forum Leader, you are still a Forum Introduction Leader. I believe that means you get up in front of groups of people with the purpose of persuading them to enroll in Landmark. Can I have someone in my group with such a strong commitment to Landmark? It seems to pose a serious threat to my group in two ways: 1) Your attempt to enroll anyone in my group is an action that I would consider to be an attempt to remove that person from the group (as he or she becomes busy with Landmark), and also to harm an individual whose well-being I feel responsible to protect. Furthermore, any attempt to enroll anyone else you meet while functioning as a member of my group would be associating my group with an organization whose purposes I oppose. 2) Your continued involvement with Landmark, especially in a role as significant as Forum Introduction Leader, means that I am not able to deal with you directly, but rather with you as influenced by Landmark.


(new name omitted), I find myself in a very difficult position. Actually, I want to talk with (original name omitted), the woman I met three years ago. May I talk with her? (By the way, according to my calendar it was three years ago this very day that we met.) I enjoy working with you and I consider you to be an exceptional singer and performer who, in so many ways, is perfectly suited to my group. I have seen you develop as a performer in the last three years and I know you will continue to develop. I so much want to hire you, when my group is now growing professionally, for the upcoming gig. But for the reasons I have explained I don’t see how I can do that without putting the entire production in jeopardy.

Although I’ve avoided raising the issues I’ve raised in this letter, I’m raising them now because I consider it essential that you know where I stand. As always, I am interested in your response to what I have to say to you, and am open to hearing whatever response you might have. If I am mistaken in my understanding of your current relationship with Landmark, please let me know. In closing I want you to know I am truly your friend and will be available for you when you need to talk with someone who has traveled a similar path.
I feel relieved to have communicated honestly what I needed to say. I am not optimistic that the singer will have any immediate epiphany as the result of my letter, but I believe that when the times comes she'll know that she can trust me. We'll see what happens. In the meantime, I'm building my band with a new singer.

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Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by: concernedfriend ()
Date: December 12, 2006 11:56AM

Just to clarify the history, I sent a letter to the singer on 9/11/06 (which I believe I did not post in this forum), but I did not send the letter I posted in this forum in the middle of October. Thus the previous letter to which I refer in my letter of 12/11/06 is the letter of 9/11/06.

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Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by: elena ()
Date: December 12, 2006 02:47PM

Thanks for writing.

I think you've written a very thoughtful and generous letter. Even if she ignores you now or brushes off what you've said, it may register in some way with her that will make it easier for her to talk to you some time down the line.

Best to you,

Ellen

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