Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by:
concernedfriend
()
Date: June 16, 2005 12:50AM
I just found this forum and am glad I did. I was in Lifespring from 1985 through 1988. I did the Basic, Advanced, Leadership, Masters, Sexuality, and Abundance and Prosperity courses. I staffed the basic, advanced courses, and Masters courses. Almost every month I interviewed graduates of the Basic course to guide them into the Advanced course. During those three years almost the only thing I would talk about with my friends was Lifespring. I'm sure I was a pain in the ass to a lot of people.
Well, the singer in my band recently did the first Landmark course, and this weekend she completed the next one (the Advanced?). I don't know just how deep she is into Landmark, but she did invite me to the introduction last night. She called me during the weekend to tell me that she was not ok with coming to rehearsals unprepared. I'm all for it if she will come to rehearsals as prepared as possible, but the edge behind it has me frightened. I had told her my Lifespring story about a year ago, and she referred to it when she made her invitation. I told her I would think about it. I thought about it a lot, and called and left her a message yesterday saying that I know I do not want to attend a Landmark introduction. I haven't heard from her since then, but I will see her this Friday at rehearsal.
Since I left Lifespring in 1988 this is the first time I've been approached by anyone to join a cult, and it definitely has stirred up a lot of feeling. I feel threatened for the success of my band, that she might leave if I don't do Landmark, or that I might not want her in my band if she continues. So far her behavior toward me about all of this has been respectful, but my experience with Lifespring leads me to expect trouble. I'd like to be helpful to her in any way I can, and of course I want to protect my band. She's a fabulous singer and we've really grown together musically over the last year. Actually, I've given generously to her and she has learned a great deal from me. I don't want all that I've created to be lost to a cult.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for in writing all of this. In writing I do realize that I have a lot more to write about my experience getting into and out of Lifespring. I think I have quite a story to tell. Yeah, it's my _story. You know, there are ways in which we use stories to hold ourselves back from all sorts of good things. But stories are also a way that we make sense of our lives, and a way that we learn from others.
Well, the singer in my band recently did the first Landmark course, and this weekend she completed the next one (the Advanced?). I don't know just how deep she is into Landmark, but she did invite me to the introduction last night. She called me during the weekend to tell me that she was not ok with coming to rehearsals unprepared. I'm all for it if she will come to rehearsals as prepared as possible, but the edge behind it has me frightened. I had told her my Lifespring story about a year ago, and she referred to it when she made her invitation. I told her I would think about it. I thought about it a lot, and called and left her a message yesterday saying that I know I do not want to attend a Landmark introduction. I haven't heard from her since then, but I will see her this Friday at rehearsal.
Since I left Lifespring in 1988 this is the first time I've been approached by anyone to join a cult, and it definitely has stirred up a lot of feeling. I feel threatened for the success of my band, that she might leave if I don't do Landmark, or that I might not want her in my band if she continues. So far her behavior toward me about all of this has been respectful, but my experience with Lifespring leads me to expect trouble. I'd like to be helpful to her in any way I can, and of course I want to protect my band. She's a fabulous singer and we've really grown together musically over the last year. Actually, I've given generously to her and she has learned a great deal from me. I don't want all that I've created to be lost to a cult.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for in writing all of this. In writing I do realize that I have a lot more to write about my experience getting into and out of Lifespring. I think I have quite a story to tell. Yeah, it's my _story. You know, there are ways in which we use stories to hold ourselves back from all sorts of good things. But stories are also a way that we make sense of our lives, and a way that we learn from others.
Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by:
foodguypdx
()
Date: June 16, 2005 02:26AM
Welcome to the Forum. This is the good Forum. We share our thoughts and feelings freely and gain strength from that sharing. Sounds a little bit like LE, but with a different turn. No one here is in your skull telling you how and when and where, that is all up to you.
If I were to offer you some advice it would be:
Relox for now. She may take the (bad)Forum and be able to walk away with either no ill effects or be able to sort through all of the crap and possibly find some good tools. Or, the more sinister edge is that she will completely submerge herself in LE. If this is the case HOLD ON TIGHT!
Try to be a friend, keep your conversations light and if you see a room of neatly ordered chairs and people with s.e. grins on their faces......RUN!
Keep in touch.
foodguypdx
If I were to offer you some advice it would be:
Relox for now. She may take the (bad)Forum and be able to walk away with either no ill effects or be able to sort through all of the crap and possibly find some good tools. Or, the more sinister edge is that she will completely submerge herself in LE. If this is the case HOLD ON TIGHT!
Try to be a friend, keep your conversations light and if you see a room of neatly ordered chairs and people with s.e. grins on their faces......RUN!
Keep in touch.
foodguypdx
Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by:
caligari
()
Date: June 16, 2005 02:49AM
Quote
concernedfriend
I just found this forum and am glad I did. I was in Lifespring from 1985 through 1988. I did the Basic, Advanced, Leadership, Masters, Sexuality, and Abundance and Prosperity courses. I staffed the basic, advanced courses, and Masters courses. Almost every month I interviewed graduates of the Basic course to guide them into the Advanced course. During those three years almost the only thing I would talk about with my friends was Lifespring. I'm sure I was a pain in the ass to a lot of people.
Well, the singer in my band recently did the first Landmark course, and this weekend she completed the next one (the Advanced?). I don't know just how deep she is into Landmark, but she did invite me to the introduction last night. She called me during the weekend to tell me that she was not ok with coming to rehearsals unprepared. I'm all for it if she will come to rehearsals as prepared as possible, but the edge behind it has me frightened. I had told her my Lifespring story about a year ago, and she referred to it when she made her invitation. I told her I would think about it. I thought about it a lot, and called and left her a message yesterday saying that I know I do not want to attend a Landmark introduction. I haven't heard from her since then, but I will see her this Friday at rehearsal.
Since I left Lifespring in 1988 this is the first time I've been approached by anyone to join a cult, and it definitely has stirred up a lot of feeling. I feel threatened for the success of my band, that she might leave if I don't do Landmark, or that I might not want her in my band if she continues. So far her behaviour toward me about all of this has been respectful, but my experience with Lifespring leads me to expect trouble. I'd like to be helpful to her in any way I can, and of course I want to protect my band. She's a fabulous singer and we've really grown together musically over the last year. Actually, I've given generously to her and she has learned a great deal from me. I don't want all that I've created to be lost to a cult.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for in writing all of this. In writing I do realize that I have a lot more to write about my experience getting into and out of Lifespring. I think I have quite a story to tell. Yeah, it's my _story. You know, there are ways in which we use stories to hold ourselves back from all sorts of good things. But stories are also a way that we make sense of our lives, and a way that we learn from others.
I would like to suggest that the idea of we all create our own arbitrary "story" is not correct. Most healthy people determine and judge correctly the meaning of past events to their values and purposes. That the stories or structure of memories people have for the most part have accurate meaning for their current situation and future. The idea of subjective, arbitrary "stories" is corrosive in attacking people's confidence to their ability in determining accurately meaning for their lives. To say it a bit more plainly, your story is probaby right about what is meaningful and valuable to you as an individual.
-- Caligari
Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by:
concernedfriend
()
Date: June 16, 2005 09:43PM
foodguypdx, thank you for the welcome and thank you for the suggestions. I will keep the conversations light, and I will cetainly do my best to be a friend. I think back to my time in Lifespring and wonder whether anyone could have said anything to me that would have gotten me to see that I was in a cult. I rather doubt it. There were a few times through my three years that I did have serious fears about Lifespring being a cult, but I talked myself out of them, with the help of my guitar teacher who enrolled me in the basic, and with the help of my then-wife who would probably still be in Lifespring if it were alive.
Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by:
concernedfriend
()
Date: June 16, 2005 09:55PM
Quote
caligari
I would like to suggest that the idea of we all create our own arbitrary "story" is not correct. Most healthy people determine and judge correctly the meaning of past events to their values and purposes. That the stories or structure of memories people have for the most part have accurate meaning for their current situation and future. The idea of subjective, arbitrary "stories" is corrosive in attacking people's confidence to their ability in determining accurately meaning for their lives. To say it a bit more plainly, your story is probaby right about what is meaningful and valuable to you as an individual.
caligari, I agree entirely with what you wrote, except that I believe that our stories often do contain distortions that lead us to limit ourselves. I think that cults have that part right, and it is important for us to examine our stories and revise them when we see the distortions. But that is not what cults ask. Instead, as you say, they assert that the whole story is arbitrary. If someone will buy that they'll go along with just about anything. This conversion of "Our stories contain distortions" to "Our stories are arbitrary" is an example of a cult taking something good and perverting it for its own manipulative ends. I believe that there are many such perversions in cults, and that they are important reason why cults can appear attractive while being dangerous. I intend to write about this at greater length.
Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by:
caligari
()
Date: June 17, 2005 05:46AM
Quote
concernedfriendQuote
caligari
I would like to suggest that the idea of we all create our own arbitrary "story" is not correct. Most healthy people determine and judge correctly the meaning of past events to their values and purposes. That the stories or structure of memories people have for the most part have accurate meaning for their current situation and future. The idea of subjective, arbitrary "stories" is corrosive in attacking people's confidence to their ability in determining accurately meaning for their lives. To say it a bit more plainly, your story is probaby right about what is meaningful and valuable to you as an individual.
caligari, I agree entirely with what you wrote, except that I believe that our stories often do contain distortions that lead us to limit ourselves. I think that cults have that part right, and it is important for us to examine our stories and revise them when we see the distortions. But that is not what cults ask. Instead, as you say, they assert that the whole story is arbitrary. If someone will buy that they'll go along with just about anything. This conversion of "Our stories contain distortions" to "Our stories are arbitrary" is an example of a cult taking something good and perverting it for its own manipulative ends. I believe that there are many such perversions in cults, and that they are important reason why cults can appear attractive while being dangerous. I intend to write about this at greater length.
Yes, that is true. Any construction of sensible knowledge can have weaknesses in whole or parts. To be more accurate is to say that for healthy human beings stories tend to be mostly correct to what is their values and purposes. The stories should be periodically reevaluated to their being correct for someone's current values and purposes.
This is similar to how hypothesis work in science. One constructs a reasonable hypothesis to explain what is observed through the senses. For instance one notices more people become sick in conditions of dirt. So one works to remove filthy conditions to provide for health. This generally works as a hypothesis. Later the hypothesis of germs develops. So one takes precautions to keep those who are sick away from healthy to not spread germs. Eventually drugs and antibody serums are developed which create more health. Now the early hypothesis of filthy conditions contributing to disease is accurate and useful. But a more accurate and powerful model is germ theory. Similarly healthy people will create stories that are accurate to what is valuable to their lives. It may not be the most effective story, but it is usually not inaccurate.
-- Caligari
Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by:
foodguypdx
()
Date: June 17, 2005 07:57AM
Recent update in my situation:
I spent the evening with my girlfriend and kept the conversation very up and positive. It seemed to work. I moved from topic to topic quickly and decisevly. After a few moments of being apprehensive, it became easier and easier for us to talk.
This morning as I was leaving for work I made a mention, in a light hearted way, that she may want to consider spending the evening at my house on Friday. Citing the larger more comfortable bed. She repsonded curtly and almost in a viperish tone, "or you could just tell me what you want". I told her that I felt that was very rude. She then went to say that she hopes that I don't use that statement against her in the future. I suppose that she is remembering the emotional arguement that we had and still does not trust that I was only speaking in anger and frustration.
Later in the day she mentioned that she may want to get together for a bite "or something" after her work day. This would seem normal if it were not for the fact that she had mentioned how long her work day was going to be and how early she had to be up the following morning for her 2nd job, not LE by the way.
I have found that since the arguement that she and I had a week ago I question her motives and conversation more and more. I know that it is just my critical brain speaking to me, but I wonder if it is trying to tell me something. I wonder if she is trying to provoke me in some sort of a subliminal way. Or could it be that she is trying to communicate to me clearly without using suggestion or anything of the sort.
I have found myself doubting her sincerity since Monday night, when she offered, again, to take LF with me. I polite declined, of course.
concernefriend, do you find yourself doing this. Questioning your friends communication and it's possible hidden meaning? Does any one out there have any input on this.
I know I love her and I know that she loves me. However, when she says very ambiguous things, like..."i don't know what I would do without you in my life"...I wonder if she is setting up the groundwork for a break-up.
Anyone....any thoughts?
foodguypdx
I spent the evening with my girlfriend and kept the conversation very up and positive. It seemed to work. I moved from topic to topic quickly and decisevly. After a few moments of being apprehensive, it became easier and easier for us to talk.
This morning as I was leaving for work I made a mention, in a light hearted way, that she may want to consider spending the evening at my house on Friday. Citing the larger more comfortable bed. She repsonded curtly and almost in a viperish tone, "or you could just tell me what you want". I told her that I felt that was very rude. She then went to say that she hopes that I don't use that statement against her in the future. I suppose that she is remembering the emotional arguement that we had and still does not trust that I was only speaking in anger and frustration.
Later in the day she mentioned that she may want to get together for a bite "or something" after her work day. This would seem normal if it were not for the fact that she had mentioned how long her work day was going to be and how early she had to be up the following morning for her 2nd job, not LE by the way.
I have found that since the arguement that she and I had a week ago I question her motives and conversation more and more. I know that it is just my critical brain speaking to me, but I wonder if it is trying to tell me something. I wonder if she is trying to provoke me in some sort of a subliminal way. Or could it be that she is trying to communicate to me clearly without using suggestion or anything of the sort.
I have found myself doubting her sincerity since Monday night, when she offered, again, to take LF with me. I polite declined, of course.
concernefriend, do you find yourself doing this. Questioning your friends communication and it's possible hidden meaning? Does any one out there have any input on this.
I know I love her and I know that she loves me. However, when she says very ambiguous things, like..."i don't know what I would do without you in my life"...I wonder if she is setting up the groundwork for a break-up.
Anyone....any thoughts?
foodguypdx
Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by:
concernedfriend
()
Date: June 22, 2005 02:13AM
Quote
foodguypdx
concernefriend, do you find yourself doing this. Questioning your friends communication and it's possible hidden meaning?
foodguypdx
I do. A few months ago the singer left the band for several reasons, all of which I understood. A few weeks later she told me she wanted to get back in, because during her first Landmark weekend she realized that she had a habit that included quiting things just when they got going (or something like that). Although I was glad that she had changed her mind, I immediately wondered whether her rejoining was part of a campaign to enroll me in Landmark.
In the last week, since we had our last conversation about Landmark, I find myself tending to be less communicative with her. Rehearsal last Friday went well, but throughout it I was thinking about her involvment with Landmark and the threat it posed to my group. This morning I read an article on this website that suggests ways to deal with friends and family when they join a cult, and one of the things it said was to continue to communicate. I urge you to read the article, which I know is going to be very helpful to me. You can find it here: [culteducation.com]
Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by:
concernedfriend
()
Date: May 02, 2006 08:53AM
The singer in my band is now an employee of Landmark. Curiously, she hasn't been at all agressive with me to enroll, although she has again, for the first time since a year ago, invited me to an introduction. I suspect that she hasn't badgered me about enrolling because about a year before she got started with Landmark I told her my entire Lifespring story. I find that I don't quite trust her, and I feel her participation in Landmark as a threat to my group. I hope that she'll soon see Landmark for the cult that it is, and when she does I hope that she'll know that I'll be available to talk about it. But I'm afraid she's going to get in deeper before she gets out.
Singer in my band now in Landmark
Posted by:
Loela
()
Date: May 02, 2006 12:03PM
It is such a relief to have found this website! I just found it today. Briefly, I've completed all the Landmark courses.
One of the main reasons I decided it was no longer for me is because of the tremendous pressure LF puts on it's participants to invite folks to events. They say if you can get people to attend you're "getting it." Friends and coworkers began to get tired of invitations and it was affecting my relationships. No matter what they say, LF folks DO have an agenda. Invite invite invite. Free marketing for LF!! What a deal. One of their tatics is to ask for the names of the people you plan on inviting. If she mentioned your name in some LF group session you can bet she is now receiving pressure to invite you and not only that, if you don't make an appearance she 'takes the blame' and if you do show up 'she's on the right track.' So really, it isn't about you and it's all about her. By the way, these aren't the LF buzz words. I have chosen to forget all the key phrases so I won't use them any longer.
Your comment about her becoming an actual employee is ringing bells for you and it should. Briefly, one other aspect that really began to bother me was that some people in LF become LF celebrities of sorts. They receive a tremendous amount of praise and attention and it's like they can't get enough of it. They crave that 'on stage/center of attention' feeling and they get it by attending functions as leaders and get that kind of recognition from other leaders and the participants.
Finally, the Forum promised 'permanent' transformation. What began to anger me was the fact that right after each course there was always this tremendous pressure to enroll in the next course. So it was like... in reality "You're only partially transformed."
If you don't want to go then follow your heart and don't feel bad about saying no. Only she can save herself. You can be there to talk but it sounds like that day, if ever, is not going to happen any time soon. Just do what you need to do for you and the rest will fall into place. And why do you need her in/around your group... or do you?
:roll:
One of the main reasons I decided it was no longer for me is because of the tremendous pressure LF puts on it's participants to invite folks to events. They say if you can get people to attend you're "getting it." Friends and coworkers began to get tired of invitations and it was affecting my relationships. No matter what they say, LF folks DO have an agenda. Invite invite invite. Free marketing for LF!! What a deal. One of their tatics is to ask for the names of the people you plan on inviting. If she mentioned your name in some LF group session you can bet she is now receiving pressure to invite you and not only that, if you don't make an appearance she 'takes the blame' and if you do show up 'she's on the right track.' So really, it isn't about you and it's all about her. By the way, these aren't the LF buzz words. I have chosen to forget all the key phrases so I won't use them any longer.
Your comment about her becoming an actual employee is ringing bells for you and it should. Briefly, one other aspect that really began to bother me was that some people in LF become LF celebrities of sorts. They receive a tremendous amount of praise and attention and it's like they can't get enough of it. They crave that 'on stage/center of attention' feeling and they get it by attending functions as leaders and get that kind of recognition from other leaders and the participants.
Finally, the Forum promised 'permanent' transformation. What began to anger me was the fact that right after each course there was always this tremendous pressure to enroll in the next course. So it was like... in reality "You're only partially transformed."
If you don't want to go then follow your heart and don't feel bad about saying no. Only she can save herself. You can be there to talk but it sounds like that day, if ever, is not going to happen any time soon. Just do what you need to do for you and the rest will fall into place. And why do you need her in/around your group... or do you?
:roll:
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.