Let's remember that "commitment" and "authentic" are important concepts, even if those concepts are corrupted by Landmark and other cults.

How would I get him on the nicotine patch if he isn't interested in stopping smoking? Unless he [b:57d059cc2f]makes the choice[/b:57d059cc2f] to quit, I don't see how I could [u:57d059cc2f]make him[/u:57d059cc2f] use the patch. I think you're missing the point. Ultimately, when it comes to behavior modification, the only person I can contol is myself. However, if I get in some bizarre (there must be more to your story) situation like your friend who got pulled over, some choices will be taken away from me just because that's what happens some times. Who knows... it could have boiled down to some sort of serious communication problem between her and that guard or maybe he was on a power trip and she was his unwitting victim... a situation which would not have been [b:57d059cc2f]her[/b:57d059cc2f] choice to be in... but s*** happens.

Like today on an OR freeway a woman's car went over the divide and she crashed into a cop's car. She died and he got seriously injured. I doubt either one of them chose for that to happen. It just happened and since she's dead, investigators may not be able to pinpoint exactly why it happened. So yeah, like you said before, some choices are out of our hands.

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Loela
How would I get him on the nicotine patch if he isn't interested in stopping smoking?

not sure. however that would offer an alternative to no more smoking and no nicotine at all. or perhaps you could get him on pipe smoking and progress from the pipesmoking to something still less harmful like the patch or nicotine gum.

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However, if I get in some bizarre (there must be more to your story) situation like your friend who got pulled over, some choices will be taken away from me just because that's what happens some times. Who knows... it could have boiled down to some sort of serious communication problem between her and that guard or maybe he was on a power trip and she was his unwitting victim... a situation which would not have been [b:11bbe7ed37]her[/b:11bbe7ed37] choice to be in... but s*** happens.

the guard enjoyed bullying.

I can think of a separate example of him laying on to a borderline retarded woman. he ended up mocking her lisp to her face and she just took it, as he knew she would do.

he thought that he had another victim in the other woman and he didn't, instead of taking it, even with difficulty and without raising her voice, she won out. so, no, he didn't make another victim that day though not for lack of trying on his part.

What a jerk! That guard sounds like the type of person most of us try to avoid.

Your story reminded me of the time this girl tried to hurt my feelings by saying, "You look hot now, but I bet you don't look so hot when that perm of yours grows out!" Having naturally curly hair it was fun to be able to reply, "Honey, I was [i:24d017860b]born[/i:24d017860b] with this 'perm'!!"

Some people seem to truly enjoy being mean and cruel. A friend asked me the other day if I think there are people who are evil at heart. Oprah had that as a topic on her show recently and it stirred up quite a conversation. I'm basically a happy person so I'm struggling with this one.

What do you think? Have you met anyone who thrives on meanness and cruelty to the extent you would say they are bad to the core of their being? [/color:24d017860b]

I don't think I have. I've met plenty of people like me who have their occasional bitchy moment, but that's about it. However, I have noticed that most everyone I've ever met can remember trying to avoid a class bully when they were in grade school. One of the bullies I remember ended up being murdered (as an adult), and another went to prison as an adult. Hmmm...

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Oh my god. "running a racket" brought chills to my spine. We are all human beings therefore we are subject to our whims of the day, etc. In my case I had just left a somewhat decent marriage (in 2001) because I had never learned how to be on my own. I chose to conquer my biggest fear... life on my own, alone. Our son was 15 at the time and long story short, I felt guilty. I then met a man who's stepdad was a Forum leader. He re-awakened me to the joys of sex. I wanted him to like me more so when he suggested the forum (to 'fix' me) of course I said "YES!" And of course the relationship didn't last. However, because of LE I have been able to create and new and surprisingly good relationship with my former husband, and that's a good thing.

All former LE folks have a story to tell. My healing involved forgiving myself for a lot of things. At the time I took the forum (3 months after leaving my former husband) it seemed to be just what I needed...but I didn't understand how emotionally vulnerable I was at the time. Cults tend to attract people who are looking for something. I've noticed that I'm no longer attracted to needy people (like I was) or people I can 'fix.' Since 2001 I have become fiercely independent. I bought my own first home, bought a new car, got a new job, joined a new church, started some new hobbies, etc. It feels like there are endless possibilities and I no longer fear outcomes or the unknown.

Loela,

It looks from your posts that you got "stuff' and not much in the way of any tools to help maintain good relationships with. Your marriage was "somewhat decent" but you had never learned to be independent. This is something many couples face and when there is the self-awareness that you had BEFORE LE, there are ways to integrate newly found independence into a marriage. To use a bad cliche, it's like "having it all."

What I saw at my Forum was people bailing out of relationships for reasons like yours, instead of figuring out how to discover what is important for themselves and sharing that stuff in a good way with their partners.

Leaving one's partner because of shortcomings in oneself is essentially blaming the other person (wouldn't that be a major racket according to LE???).

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Loela
What a jerk! That guard sounds like the type of person most of us try to avoid.

and how would you know? he didn't have horns on his head. as he or one other of the guards said to me, he did his job and went home at night.

the lover of a friend has commited various atrocities (torture, rapes, muders) in his home country. he now does respectable work for international agencies. he may not ever get punished for these actions and I don't know if he feels any shame or guilt.

for that matter, Harvard University has affiliated itself with a secure facility, McLean, where I and others get confined, tortured (in the 1980's and for all I know, now, that includes electroshock, which causes brain injury) without any outcry at all.

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What do you think? Have you met anyone who thrives on meanness and cruelty to the extent you would say they are bad to the core of their being? [/color:f7efb5aff5]

I have met a few people like that. less than five, probably.

[b:2c9e4a73c7]Hope[/b:2c9e4a73c7], I bailed out of my marriage for many reasons; the main reason, however, was that we were not compatible in the first place. We blended together like water and oil. The marriage should have never happened. I got cold feet right before the marriage, red flags, etc. but chose to ignore those feelings. It wasn't the thing to be doing but I had just graduated from college and was afraid to live alone (I hadn't learned how to be independent). I was needy and he was attracted to that, unfortunately. Marrying him was a selfish move. [i:2c9e4a73c7](Also, briefly... we were both raised by over-bearing fathers who did not encourage independence. Our marriage began like that of our parents... man issues the orders and woman follows them without argument. That's what I thought marriage was supposed to be like and that aspect only heightened our incompatibility.)[/i:2c9e4a73c7]

My ex-husband is delighted with life right now and I am so glad that he is happy. His happiness has made it easier for me to move on. In fact, he is happier right now than he ever was when we were married! He gushes with joy these days.

I am now in a healthy relationship (with my boyfriend of two years) which feels right and good, and I have discovered what is important to me. What I should have done was discover what was/is important to me [u:2c9e4a73c7]before[/u:2c9e4a73c7] getting married.... Hope, I am happy inside and out [i:2c9e4a73c7]with me[/i:2c9e4a73c7]! I have finally learned how to love myself.

And yeah, I was blaming him way back when. I think one of the reasons he's happy and accepting of our new relationship now is because I've had the courage to take responsibility for my shortcomings, have acknowledged the mess I created, and I've placed the blame when it belongs.

[b:2c9e4a73c7]Acid Reindeer[/b:2c9e4a73c7],
You said:

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Harvard University has affiliated itself with a secure facility, McLean, where I and others get confined, tortured (in the 1980's and for all I know, now, that includes electroshock, which causes brain injury) without any outcry at all.

Why would Harvard University afficiate itself with McLean? Why did you get confined and tortured? In response to your flip statement

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and how would you know?

I wouldn't know. I just trust my gut feelings and when I'm around someone who scares me my natural instinct is to get away. Fortunately, I've never been in a situation where getting away wasn't an option.

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Loela
Why would Harvard University afficiate itself with McLean?

I don't know. the wikipedia entry on McLean will have at least some of that information as will the book [i:b23dc34dd5]Gracefully Insane[/i:b23dc34dd5] by Alex Beam. (I have a bit of a problem with this book. for one thing, it discretely fails to mention the fact that one of McLean's psychiatrists, Harold Williams, who played a large part in my getting put away in McLean and who Beam used as an interview subject for it, later got slapped with a sexual harassment lawsuit and subsequently got booted.)

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Why did you get confined and tortured?

for the usual reasons. I needed help, because I "was acting out", out of control, a danger to myself and others, in my best interests.

did they have valid reason reason to worry?

no.

did they know that?

no.

psychiatry doesn't operate under the principles of criminal law. no due process and no burden of proof on their side.

if the exact definition of torture comes down to intentionally inflicting physical or mental distress on a person, then I mean the occasion when they put in a bare cell for a week. I had only a bare mattress to sleep upon. deliberately to break me. they would not permit me to speak with anyone. I had nothing to do but pace back and forth and think. they knew that after a few days of this that I would collapse (go into the total collapse phase talked about by people who have studied thought reform and cults), recover and start acting more tractable and obedient. so they did that and it did worked.

during my second stay they did much the same.

I could give worse examples of what they did in there. however the punishment (which they called therapy) that I described above fits into the legal definition of torture i.e, the deliberate inflicting of mental and/or physical distress.

the electroshock that I mentioned before though, probably doesn't fall ito the legal definition, as they did not do it to create hurt on purpose. and, no, they did not administer electroshock on me. just on a girl of about 14 years old whose parents didn't speak fluent English.

So how are you doing now? Did "therapy" help? I can image your situation when you talk about it but I can't imagine the complete magnitude of what it must have been like for you. If it were me in that situation, I don't think I would handle it very well.

It was a very competent and compassionate therapist who helped me see the light regarding my marriage and the related choices I made. But my therapy was outpatient; definitely not on the scale you experienced.

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Loela
So how are you doing now?

not super well. my second and final institutionalization happened long enough ago that I consider the experiences as a part of me. not a good part of me. I can't look at the world the same way that I did before I got put inside. of course, I never did. my experiences inside simply made me know for sure what I already believed about how the world worked. however I realized that so-called human rights and freedoms exist solely at the largesse of those with the ability to dispense it or take it away, which I had honestly not thought of before, having a basically idealistic nature. I experienced to what degree ordinary people could brutalize others given certain circumstances. it surprises me not that atrocities happen but that it surprises us that they happen. I saw how seldom we often see the obvious, when it doesn't suit us to do so. I saw endless illustration of the nature of evil, good, indifference, apathy, under truly inhumane circumstances and the great difficulty of maintaining a sense of humor and poise under them. basically I experienced a lot of life and various forms of psychological death compressed in to a short period of time. I have a certain wildness towards me as a result of my experiences. if you try to tame a dog, say, and over-do the punishment the dog may go full circle and end up more savage and wild. well, with me I got pretty savage and it took me some time to get back to appear more civilized. I don't hold down a job. I still feel bitter.

I also want to say that I went to a "well-run" privately run institution and not to a state institution. so I hardly even saw the worst of what such institutions have to offer.

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Did "therapy" help?

could someone please field that second question for me? because I every time I have tried to answer it I have started to get furious.