This is my first post in this thread since May 10th. The singer who left my band for a full-time position in Landmark is no longer an employee of the company, but she says that she will continue as a Course Supervisor and an Introduction Leader for the near future. She also said that while she had thought that she was going to become a Forum Leader, she has come to realize how important music is in the world. When she told me that she is no longer an employee I wrote her a letter explaining how I much I have missed performing with her. I also raised some issues about her participation in Landmark. We got together for dinner to talk about my letter but we never got to the Landmark part, even though we spoke for four hours. Instead we talked about starting to work together again. I find it very difficult to speak with her about Landmark, since I find it such a hot topic. After further reflection I still have concerns regarding her participation in Landmark. I asked her to respond to my letter with a letter of her own, and she said that she would do so. after I receive her letter we will meet to talk about all the issues raised.

Today I realized that it is quite possible that she does not understand the extent to which I am opposed to organizations such as Lifespring and Landmark. It is possible that she thinks that this is a case of something that works for her but not for me. Of couse I must now make sure that she clearly understands my position, and that if I decide to invite her back into the group that any discussion of Landmark with anyone she meets while functioning as a member of my group will not be tolerated. My group is not to be a venue for Landmark enrollment.

In the last few days I have been having such mixed feelings of wanting her to be in the group and wanting to have nothing to do with her. I remember that when I was in Lifespring my true friends did not desert me, although I certainly gave them plenty of reason for doing so. I intend to be not only a concerned friend, but a true friend as well.

P.S. I believe that I know what an Introduction Leader is (one who makes the introductory presentation to the potential enrollees), but I don't know what a Course Supervisor is. Would someone explain that? Also, my singer's position at Landmark was Forum Communicator. What is that?

I am considering sending the following letter to the singer in my group. What do you think?

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In my previous letter to you I wrote that I was not finding as much to write as I thought I would have. I believe that I now know what I was missing.

Since telling you my Lifespring story in the fall of 2004, I have assumed that you understood my view of Lifespring and other similar organizations, such as Landmark. I suspect that my assumption may have been incorrect, for two reasons: 1) because I never explicitly told you my view, and 2) because more than once you have said that you know I had a bad experience in Lifespring, and you said that in such as way as to suggest that Lifespring and other such organizations might work for some people and not for others. I want you to know that I have a fundamental philosophical dispute with the way these organizations function. I know that everyone involved in such an organization is encouraged to enroll everyone with whom they come into contact, and the natural course of events is that life within the organization grows while contact with anyone outside the organization diminishes. As far as I know, when I told you my Lifespring story, you were not yet involved with, or even considering involvement with, Landmark. When I first learned that you had become involved with Landmark I felt the threat that that implied for my working with you, and I also felt disappointed that you hadn’t taken advantage of what I had shared with you.

But now, to the present, and the future. If we are going to work together in the context of my group I want you to know that my group is not to be a venue for Landmark enrollment. I expect you to refrain from speaking about Landmark to any of the members of the group. I would consider any such conversation with a member of the group to be an attempt to remove that person from the group. Furthermore, I expect you to refrain from speaking about Landmark with anyone else you meet in that context. I would consider any such conversation to be associating my group with an organization whose purposes I oppose.

I realize how much work it has been for me to avoid talking about the issues I’ve raised in this letter. I’m raising them now because I do want to work with you but I have serious concerns regarding your continuing participation in Landmark. I consider it essential that you know where I stand.

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concernedfriend
I am considering sending the following letter to the singer in my group. What do you think?

I'd write her off. Really. Not being flip or inconsiderate but knowing what I do know about Landmark, the last thing I'd want to do is get involved with a follower -- on any level. It's just too much work, too demoralizing, too frustrating, too futile. Landmark turns people into users who are glib, arrogant, know-it-alls if they aren't turned into brain-damaged fools who think they are in possession of the keys to life. I might tell her to look me up if and when she gets out of the thing and can recount why and how it is harmful, silly, and a collosal waste of time. (Even if she agrees to your demands, Landmarkers lie, twist, shade, and distort the truth. They call it ~creating your own reality.~)


Ellen

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I'd write her off. Really. Not being flip or inconsiderate but knowing what I do know about Landmark, the last thing I'd want to do is get involved with a follower -- on any level. It's just too much work, too demoralizing, too frustrating, too futile. Landmark turns people into users who are glib, arrogant, know-it-alls if they aren't turned into brain-damaged fools who think they are in possession of the keys to life. I might tell her to look me up if and when she gets out of the thing and can recount why and how it is harmful, silly, and a collosal waste of time. (Even if she agrees to your demands, Landmarkers lie, twist, shade, and distort the truth. They call it ~creating your own reality.~)


Ellen

Right you are Ellen. I called up a close family member a month ago to tell him about all the research I was finding out about on Landmark and Werner Erhard. It took me a while to realize it on the phone, but he started shifting the conversation away from my questions about Landmark (he's a staff member there), and started trying to "coach" me instead. For example, when I would ask a specific question trying to get information on the connections between Erhard and Landmark, he would say "I'm so worried about you...you seem to be obsessing over this...are you alright mentally?" - Shifting the discussion away from content and towards a very subtle, almost attack on my motivations and well-being!

On another note, [b:5df34b27d4]I hate the pro-cult bias on Wikipedia!, phew.[/b:5df34b27d4]

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blarney36363636

Right you are Ellen. I called up a close family member a month ago to tell him about all the research I was finding out about on Landmark and Werner Erhard. It took me a while to realize it on the phone, but he started shifting the conversation away from my questions about Landmark (he's a staff member there), and started trying to "coach" me instead. For example, when I would ask a specific question trying to get information on the connections between Erhard and Landmark, he would say "I'm so worried about you...you seem to be obsessing over this...are you alright mentally?" - Shifting the discussion away from content and towards a very subtle, almost attack on my motivations and well-being!

LOL....That is sooooo snarky. Rest asssured, they have hearsed and rehearsed these deflection tactics and have prepared and preformulated answers to every bit of unflattering information they might be faced with. It's all about protecting Werner/Landmark/est (and protecting their own egos) while they attempt to disarm or destabilize you. They are so obvious. No normal person would put up with this nonsense. It's formulaic manipulation, or amateur attempts at manipulation. If you don't bite, they'll try something else until you walk away. As long as you are listening, they think they have a chance to change your mind. You can see how someone with a little hesitancy or self-doubt might be affected by these "suggestions." It's like "gaslighting," or trying to make the other person think he is crazy.


Ellen

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concernedfriend
I am considering sending the following letter to the singer in my group. What do you think?

Something like having a band member try to recruit people could reflect badly on your group, so yeah, I think it's quite appropriate to tell her either shut up about it or get out. I suggest you add to it a bit to really emphasise that point though, probably right after that second last paragraph:

"I would consider any such conversation to be associating my group with an organization whose purposes I oppose, and whose reputation for destroying lives and families is well known to the general public. To have such an association could hurt the band."

As for cutting all ties, I'm tempted to advocate that myself, but it's really up to you. Some people decide to put up with it in lieu of all the benefits that friendship may provide. One of my best friends is way into it, and gets into enrollment conversations with me quite often (not registration conversations thankfully, since I've already done the forum) but he's a great guy, we have similar interests and are heading in the same directions in life. I smile and nod when he gets weird, but I don't mind too much because we have fun together the rest of the time.

The true 'zealots' of Landmark can be pretty bad though. I think your letter is good because it gives your singer a chance to prove to you whether she is one or not.

My best to you and good luck in your sticky situation!

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Dynamix

Something like having a band member try to recruit people could reflect badly on your group, so yeah, I think it's quite appropriate to tell her either shut up about it or get out. I suggest you add to it a bit to really emphasise that point though, probably right after that second last paragraph:

Yes. Oh, and another thing....

Landmarkers, like other people and groups trying to sell something, look for people in a position to influence others. They troll for "trend-setters," "alpha-dogs," those with high prestige, and the "cool" kids. Giving, allowing, or permitting a Landmarker a platform from which to excercise that influence is giving them what they want. I wouldn't trust for a minute a Landmarker's not taking advantage of whatever situation they can to recruit other people into Landmark. The fact that she is still involved with them is evidence that she has swallowed the Kool-Aid. Her identity is all wrapped up in them and her success is predicated on how persuasive she can be in bringing people in. They probably "coached" her on how to maximize her influence using her singing career and decided they could better utilize her in that way. My bet, anyway.


Ellen

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elena

I'd write her off. Really. Not being flip or inconsiderate but knowing what I do know about Landmark, the last thing I'd want to do is get involved with a follower -- on any level. It's just too much work, too demoralizing, too frustrating, too futile. Landmark turns people into users who are glib, arrogant, know-it-alls if they aren't turned into brain-damaged fools who think they are in possession of the keys to life. I might tell her to look me up if and when she gets out of the thing and can recount why and how it is harmful, silly, and a collosal waste of time. (Even if she agrees to your demands, Landmarkers lie, twist, shade, and distort the truth. They call it ~creating your own reality.~)


Ellen

So well put, as usual, Ellen :!: This is my experience with my Lifeprung-offshoot/programmed sister. For 2 and a half years I tried to retain/maintain our half century long good relationship. I finally came to realize it was hopeless. I have indicated to her that when/if the day comes she can recount why and how CONtext separated us, is the day I will re-enter into a relationship with her. So far, she still BELIEVES in the lies and the program, which is my STOP sign to involvement with her. Family and friends are surprised and sad by this ugly development, but I was being torn apart in my attempts to be involved with a follower. It was exactly as you say: too much work, too demoralizing, too frustrating, too futile.

skeptic

Concerned friend, I agree with everyone else who posted. Probably should let her go. Having had my own Landmark experiences I tried to maintain contact with some Landmark-made friends while pushing away from Landmark in general and it didn't work out.

I think spelling your concerns out as crystal clear as you have in your email would make your feelings quite clear and should create an atmosphere where you both feel free to speak your minds. Better to be honest about your concerns up front then wait and see what would happen if she joins the group.

Hope you write and give us all an update!

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Loela
Concerned friend, I agree with everyone else who posted. Probably should let her go. Having had my own Landmark experiences I tried to maintain contact with some Landmark-made friends while pushing away from Landmark in general and it didn't work out.

Often I think this way, but she is an excellent singer for my group, I like working with her, and, very importantly, she has never badgered me about attending Landmark. In the 18 months during which she has been in Landmark she made a total of two invitations. So if it weren't for my previous experience with Lifespring I might not even be concerned about her involvement with Landmark.

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I think spelling your concerns out as crystal clear as you have in your email would make your feelings quite clear and should create an atmosphere where you both feel free to speak your minds. Better to be honest about your concerns up front then wait and see what would happen if she joins the group.

Honesty _is the best policy, as they say.

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Hope you write and give us all an update!

I will do that.