The personal stories of anguish as more and more people leave TP, and leave family and friends behind, are heart wrenching. But then, God knew that this would be difficult for us. He tells us in Luke, that inorder to be HIS disciples, we must leave everything and everyone else. I pray that TP changes it's way soon, or those that we've left will get their sight back, and that in His mercy, God will reveal the truth.

The Cost of Being a Disciple
25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
28"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'

31"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

34"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?

It's amazing to me, that those still *inside* TP can believe that we are the ones out of God's will. The view from the outside seems so clear, but I remember how murky it was from the inside. We must keep praying.

It is clear that those still on the "inside" of TP are those who have chosen to believe in and to follow man. This group also encompases those who stay on the fringes of the church family and just want to have the experience of a "new age" church service complete with a rock style worship display. That doesn't mean that these people aren't nice and well meaning people, but it does mean that they are choosing to follow the captain of the sinking ship rather than the ONE who gave up everything for sinners.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.


I was told that Mike has said that Jackie has paid peoples bills for them, helped them out financially, given them gifts, and that makes her guilty of theft from the church. Even though she has no money in her bank account, is in debt up to her eyeballs, lives in a small house, doesn’t own multiple properties. Like some leaders we know. Its funny but wasn’t it mike that preached over and over again to be generous, or was that only to be generous with him. So if someone who makes more money than most of the turningpoint staff, (namely Jackie) wants to help them because she loves them and is willing to give up some luxury of her own for them. Mike calls that evil. When the bass player for childrens bass got broken, when the quitar players cords were broken , when the drums needed a power plug and a monitor , Sid paid for it out of his own pocket, Why? Because he wanted to trust God and be generous, and if he didn’t no one else would have. So obedience is labeled evil. Now when Mike sins or fails, or does something less then perfect. He says that should not be spoken of in the name of protecting the flock. His failings and shortcomings should be covered up. And call it covering. Lies are made to be a good thing,, that is calling evil good. Confession is bringing things into the light. Lieing is keeping them in the dark. That is putting darkness for light and light for darkness. Maybe I’m just manipulating the word to make my point. You be the judge. But hey I learned from the best.

I have been moved by all the recent postings.
God is faithful and He has proven His faithfulness over and over again.
In His loving kindness he opened your eyes to the false teachings and doctrines that are only going to get stranger as time goes on.
He delivered you from the oppressive spirit that has made its home in your former church.

Trust God. Read His Word. Talk with Him daily. He is still with you. He will fulfill His plan for your life.

I found this blog site recently. I couldnt help but be reminded of the 4th installment of the Crisis series as I read this particular post:

[imspeakingtruth.wordpress.com]

TPR - I enjoyed that article you provided the link to.

The author of the article makes a statement that says something to the effect of "God wants us to use our prosperity to bless others, to lift up the poor." My thought on this is that for us in the USA God most likely has provided the means in which we can do just that. The author made an implication that God will provide in a future tense when in reality the provision can be past tense. We have a tendency in America to look for some kind of sign that God has blessed us and this sign means are heart is finally in the right place to help others and look beyond ourselves. God tests us, this is biblical, and that testing is for the very reason of transformation. The issue I find is that the test is not 'what are you going to do with that big fat raise I just gave you' but rather are you going to open your eyes to what you have already been given? Are you going to live a life that reflects a generous spirit from what you have? The idea of conduit living that TPC teaches is great on the surface but closer examination reveals that there is no biblical doctrine that supports it as TPC teaches it. TPC teaches that this conduit from heaven is always flowing with stuff to replace what we give away. We need to stop looking up for the handout to pass along and look around to the people God has brought to us and start being creative in your generosity. "Blessings" do not always come in the form of money or as a replacement for that ‘thing’ we just gave away. The premise that we give of what we have to only bless others and what we give will be replaced so we can give again cannot be substantiated in the bible. Was the rich young ruler promised by God that if he gave what he had away he would have it returned? (Luke 18:18-25) There is no promise that what we give will be replaced. I can’t tell you how many times a story was told at TPC where someone gave something of little value and received in return something of great value. This twist of the seed and the sower theology (2 Cor 9:6-13) that TPC teaches does nothing but bring materialism into God’s economy of generosity. We also give in order to bring glory to God, for the benefit of those watching the act. The story of the women pouring out her perfume to wash Jesus’ feet comes to mind as a biblical example of this (Matt 7:36-50).

Buddy posted that pastor Mike made the statement that God told him to get rid of his scuba gear. I would equate this kind of blessing to be not unlike the story of the widow in Luke 21:1-4. Jesus points out that the rich were giving out of their wealth and therefore it didn’t mean any real sacrifice was being made. I have to say that in just a superficial look at the Villamore lifestyle this is not a huge sacrifice and one that should have been done in private. God does tell us that giving in order to bring attention to ourselves has no spiritual benefit (Matt 6:1-4) and is meant only for pomp and circumstance. Why does a man make such statements from the pulpit?

FormerAttender, good message. You quoted Matthew 6:1-4. These verses have reverberated in my spirit for months when thinking about MV and his sermons. How many times did we hear about all he has done and given away. Why does he have to brag about it? If he is truly a cheerful giver, it won't need to be preached from the pulpit.

Matthew 6:1-4 1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This doesn't say, preach what you've done from the pulpit and then demand double honor and your Father will reward you.


Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. [Note this does not say, the family of your specific church. It says all in the family of believers.]

English Standard Version says: For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption..

CS Lewis said in Mere Christianity: "Terrific energy is expended - civilizations are built up - excellent institutions are devised; but each time something goes wrong. Some fatal flaw always brings the selfish and cruel people to the top and it all slides back into misery and ruin. In fact, the machine conks. It seems to start up all right and runs a few yards, and then it breaks down. They are trying to run it on the wrong juice. That is what Satan has done to us humans."

Guidelines for discerning a Bad Pastor
by David Cox
________________________________________
God wants us (His people) to understand what the ministry of oversight is all about, and to make sure that those who are in a position of oversight fulfill their God given duties FAITHFULLY. We can discern from God's word what would amount to a serious warning if the spiritual leader steps out of line.

KJV Ezekiel 34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? 3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. 4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. 5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. 6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. 7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; 8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; 9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; 10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. 11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

This passage of Scripture was written for the Old Testament leaders of God's people. It is written specifically against "the shepherds of Israel". "Shepherd" is the same word as "pastor". This would define what the concept of shepherd or pastor is, as God sees it. Failure to fulfill this task brings railing condemnation against that pastor. From this we too can learn much about New Testament church oversight (i.e. pastors).

Beware when your pastor ...

1. Is overly concerned about remuneration and his own life style instead of his preaching. Ezekiel 34:2
The first and great overriding condemnation by God is that the pastors feed themselves instead of feeding their charge, the flock of God. We must admit that God's principles are that the local church is to give the pastor a livable wage or salary, and they are to even give him "double honor" if he ministers well, and the pastor is to live of the gospel. But when the balance becomes to great towards "feathering his own nest" instead of tending to his charge, then the pastor is not what he is supposed to be.

The charge of God to the pastor is the same as the owner of sheep in Palestine to a shepherd of sheep, "whatever is wrong, fix it." What this means is that the pastor should confront all problems and resolve them however it is necessary to do so. A pastor who by-passes and ignores problems in the local church is not doing his job. We must give time to many matters, and we must labor over them in prayer, but some matters need to be confronted and dealt with instead of being prayed over. For example God rebuked Joshua in Joshua 7 because he was praying instead of rooting out sin in the camp. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul rebukes the church for not confronting sin in their midst. Paul's comparison is that this is like kneading a lump of dough with leaven in it, soon it will saturate the entire lump if not stopped quickly and decisively.

The preacher should preach, and he should do that well. Preachers that do not spend a lot of time preparing, and that includes study, prayer, and meditation, just are slighting their duties. Even the most scholarly preachers still spend many hours on a sermon if it is to be a good, effective sermon. Moreover, when a preacher spends a large portion of his time in other things (such as administration of a Christian school, counseling, writing, fellowship, or entertainment concerns) be careful. A person's priorities are reflected by his attention to that things, i.e. what he spends the most time, energy, and resources on is his highest priority.

Beware when your pastor ...

2. Hurts more people than he helps. Ezekiel 34:2

The sense of "the diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken" is that he should be building up the flock so that they are not crippled by spiritual disease or sickness. The broken perhaps refers to the difficult crises of life that cause a person to become disabled or unfruitful and unproductive.

Focus on our task as Christians. We must ask ourselves, "what should the sheep be normally doing that these diseases, sicknesses, and crises (brokenness) would hinder?" The answer is very simple, sheep are supposed to roam around after the pastor eating and feeding all they can get, and they are to reproduce more sheep, and give fruit (wool and milk). Christians then are supposed to go to church and feed on the Word of God that the pastor feeds them with. This Word of God explained (feeding grounds) is supposed to promote the Christian to bear spiritual fruit and to reproduce (evangelism). This evangelism is the mission of the church (Matthew 28:19-20). It is a single mission that must all come under the focus of the local church. The local church must evangelize the lost, baptize them (membership - integration) into the local church, and teach them all God has commanded us (discipleship so that they are just like the rest of the church). This is the work of God, and the sheep are supposed to be doing it, and the pastor is supposed to promoting it, making it happen.
Moreover the Christian is to bear spiritual fruit. Let us mention what the Christians should be moved to produce from their "church experience".

Gal 5:22-23

Love - The practice and attitude of placing somebody else before their own self. Seeking the benefit of another before your self.

Joy - Happiness (well being) that is not necessarily linked to physical well being. Comfort or thoughts that overwhelms the person even if that person finds himself in conflict, affliction, distress, anguish, agony, or pain.

Peace - The absence of conflict in the soul, even though outwardly the person may be in great conflicts.

Longsuffering - Suffering long, waiting and having patience even though the events and pressures of life would force the person to immediate response, vengeance, attack, rebuke, conflict, or improper speech.

Gentleness - Treating others softly instead of harshly and brutishly. Gentleness means not seeking to hurt others even when it is fully possible.

Faith - Faith is belief. But much more than some doctrinal point somebody ascribes themselves to, faith is spiritual force to wait or go forward when the evidence before ones eyes is to the contrary.

Meekness - This is to approach others as though you believe them to be better and superior to yourself. While it may not be so, still the meek person will treat others with this respect and dignity even though he himself may be a king.

Temperance - Self-control. A control over one's self so that one does not indulge in sins and excesses of life. This is a strong control over oneself, or perhaps better put, it is a complete rendering of one's self to the control of God to decide and guide their life, actions and speech so that what a person does is God's will.

KJV Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

The Christian is supposed to have his life full of all goodness and righteousness. Good is free from the element of sin. Righteousness is the opposite of sin. It is what we are supposed to be doing instead of sin. Truth is God's banner (identifying flag) over us. We are supposed to be champions of the truth. Beware when people claim to be Christians and tell lies to protect or promote their version of Christianity. No obedient Christian will use Satan's methods to do God's work. It just does not work.

Beware when your pastor ...

3. Drives away people instead of gathering them. Ezekiel 34:4

KJV Ezekiel 34:4 brought that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost
The biblical pastor will be active in evangelism. Any church or pastor that slights evangelism is making light of the verse heart of God. "For God so loved the world He sent ..." Evangelism is hard and discouraging, but it is the essence of God's work. We cannot get around it. We cannot use the world's methods, especially not Madison Avenue's methods to do God's work. We must use God's methods.

Some pastors drive away and scatter the sheep instead of gathering them. This is seen by the pastor doing and saying things that drives people away from the Lord for unbiblical reasons. God's purpose is to change people so that they obey the will of God. When a pastor preaches the will of God, then at times he will drive disobedient people away from the Lord because they will not obey God's word. This is normal and not what we are talking about here. (Christ said he came to bring a sword into this world). What is a bad sign is when the pastor delights or accepts driving people away when there is no need to do so. For example, the pastor is sarcastic or bitter or sharp with his words when he could have said the same thing in a different way and not offend. The offense must always be between the individual and God, not the pastor and the individual. The pastor shows them God's word and they may get offended or repent and follow God's will.

Another aspect of a good pastor is that he seeks the lost. This goes beyond evangelism. It goes to the pastor's relationship with his own sheep. When the pastor offends somebody, or somebody just stops coming or distances himself from the church, the good pastor will go out and seek that person seeking to "fix what is wrong" and restore that person into the fellowship as an active and fruitful member.

Beware when your pastor's ...

4. Leadership style is marked with cruelty and force. Ezekiel 34:4

KJV Ezekiel 34:4 with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them
"Force" here means excessive force, vehemence, might, strength. "Cruelty" means to break apart, to break down, to fracture, to use severity or cruelty, rigor. The idea is that the bad pastor is somebody who gets his will done no matter what. He is very forceful, and reserves all right for himself. Seldom is he ever wrong (in his own eyes), and even when he is wrong, he will ignore it and wants all others to ignore his errors, adhering absolute loyalty to his "always right" way.

Beware when your pastor ...

5. Decides not to give pastoral counseling and get involved in correcting people's lives. Ezekiel 34:5

One of the most important points to understand about pastors is that they government the sheep. That "government" simply is that they make executive decisions for the welfare of the sheep. The word for shepherd (ra'ah) means and is translated on occasion, "to govern". They are personally responsible to God for their charge (Hebrews 13:17). This governing takes a public form in guiding the decisions of the local church, and a private form in personal one on one counseling.

Public guiding of the church is done by preaching and teaching, setting the norms, understandings, and standards of that local church. Also he has the burden of biblically expositing the direction, activities, and work of the local church to set its course. He does not make these decisions privately, and the church simply obeys him, but rather he exposits biblically why and how we are to do what we do, and the church follows his leadership. His "validity" is not found in his authority (position) but rather in his right to "have the ear of the church". He feeds them daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, with information from God that illuminates the church, and is the pastor's principal means of governing.

When a pastor comes to a person position in his own life in which he is not willing or able to "risk" giving counsel and getting involved in correcting the wrong in people's lives and in the church in general, he must be removed, either voluntarily or by the people of that church for failure to fulfill his primary work burden.

Pastors today think that they can split and divide their work such that they personally do not have to do the "dirty job" of dealing with people's problems. This is the primary burden for the pastor. He gets his validity in everything else because he has helped the personal problems of his people and church.

Bottom Line: Whatever is wrong, the pastor has to fix it however it has to be done.

[www.davidcox.com.mx]

Bottom line whatever our problems were or are, Mike Villamor does not care unless you belong to the inner circle or clique that surrounds him, what he does care about and the only thing he seems to care about is the amount of the tithe that is brought in each week by those outside his inner circle.

Saddened

Guess who's moving to Smokey Point/Marysville area: CHRISTIAN FAITH CENTER. The problem with the prosperity movement, one of them anyways, is that you can never know who your friend is and when they are going to move in on your prosperity: When they see your church ship going down, they move in to plunder your booty.

I think I am done with mega churches and anyone who Mike Villamor wanted to emulate.

By the way, the truth about the sabbatical has still not been exposed to the light of day.


Saddened