Wow Die Quietly......Good post. You summarize perfectly what I have felt, and what my family has gone through since leaving TP. There really isn't much more to say. Thank you for sharing.

The way people are treated when they leave Turning Point...these are the ways of unhealthy churches; the ways of members covering for a spiritually abusive pastor.

[pureprovender.blogspot.com]

I echo what Die Quietly has said and would add that as a current 'insider' at TPC I would ask you to assess this. In 1 Cor 3 Paul addresses the church at Corinth and asks them to, in today’s vernacular, ‘get their act together!’ The church got lost in the great debate of which person was the right man to follow. Paul says to them that man is not who they follow but it is Christ. If your thoughts gravitate toward your trust in a man verses your own personal relationship with Christ you need to do some serious evaluating. That is an extremely dangerous place to be. If you don't believe me just take some time to research how God treated the followers of man in the Old Testament. After that, do some research on the warnings throughout the New Testament to the church body about listening to man and not God. Don't take my word for it, this is your personal walk with Christ - YOU need to do this for yourself. The reality is there is going to have to be some serious soul searching. It is not easy, I can tell you from experience. To take a step back and objectively look at your relationship with Jesus and recognize if there is someone that you trust or look to instead of Him is difficult to discern. I urge you to do so. To ignore this and not be willing to self evaluate your relationship with your savior is not a healthy place to be.
Investing in your relationship with Christ is the most important thing you can do. It is more important than anything else and it might put you in a position where it costs you friends and family. In the bible we read that Jesus says it will cost you something as well.

In response to Die Quietly's excellent post -- for people on the inside and Pastor Mike: You have got to know that leaving TP was the hardest thing most of us have ever had to do. TP was our family -- our lifeline -- well I'm going to speak for myself now. My family -- my lifeline. I did not leave with a cavalier attitude. It has cost me dearly -- why would I do that if I didn't believe God was in it? Why would I throw away my walk with Christ? Why would I choose agony? No! God LED me. Not the devil. This post may ramble -- but my brain is mush -- so bear with me!

I remember years ago, I was in another dysfunctional church. I remember having red flags and ignoring them because I feared leaving the "true" church. A friend came over and was telling me why she left -- all the same red flags I had. As I listened to her, I sobbed in agony knowing what she said was true -- but being so scared to leave. Thankfully, our family moved out of that city and I had no choice but to leave. But I should have left. I share this only to say that there may be people on the inside who KNOW what we say here is true, but are scared of God's judgment like I was. I'm older and wiser now, but many there are so young -- I can appreciate their trepidation -- if they have it!

I'm dying inside. I feel like I have PTSD. I can't sleep, I'm anxious, jumpy and severely depressed, I'm biting my lip all day at work trying to keep from breaking down in sobs. I'm not functioning at work or at home. I'm so lonely I could die. God sets the lonely in families? Yes! I loved my TP family. But then I could no longer ignore the red flags -- I listened to the Holy Spirit and I chose to obey His Word and leave a church that is preaching false doctrine, and now I no longer see the people I love -- especially my own family! I still have family at TP and I don't even know what they think of me. They never call to see how I am. When I told them I was leaving they said "We are scared for you." What does that mean? Why were they scared for me? That I would be lonely, that I would be FURTHER deceived? If they were scared I'd be lonely, I would think they would call me every now and then to see how I am. On the RARE occasion that I do see them, we never talk about church -- it's a forbidden subject. I don't bring it up. But I wonder what they think of me. They spend more time with Pastor Mike than me. He is their family now -- well that's how it feels to me -- I don't know if they would say that to my face -- but it feels that way -- it's so painful. I think they believe he is more spiritual than me -- that they would rather spend time with him. I feel like they think I'm a spiritual loser -- a spiritual nobody who knows nothing. These are my feelings -- they may not be true -- but those feelings are causing me GREAT pain.

Pastor Mike: I've said it before and I'll say it again. A healthy church does not have people who are whole-heartedly seeking the Lord leave en masse. A healthy church would never end up on a cult forum with 60,000 views in less than a year! Seriously now, Pastor Mike, would it? And persecution only happens when truth is being proclaimed, when lives are being RADICALLY changed -- not when lives are being destroyed and people are getting wounded. Mike, you talk about TP being persecuted -- but what about all of us now on the outside who are still running hard after God, missing our once beloved church family? Why would we persecute you? We want TRUTH to prevail. But you preach some things that aren't Biblical. So we post here so TRUTH will be told. We don't post here to squelch the TRUTH of the gospel -- that would be persecution. Great moves of God do bring persecution -- like you say. But great moves of Satan will cause godly men and women to rise up and PROCLAIM TRUTH. And we've risen up -- RIGHT HERE ON THIS FORUM! If you were truly undergoing persecution, it would be because Christ was being proclaimed, but your sermons lately -- when was the last time you preached a truly "gospel" message? Really Mike. When was the last time you proclaimed Christ -- Christ crucified -- the HARD truth of the Gospel in a series of sermons. Now THAT would bring persecution. But the self-help, try-to-live-a-better-life sermons you preach -- those do not bring persecution. Those sermons make people feel better about themselves. The true gospel is hard to believe -- IT'S QUITE COSTLY. Christ said it would cost us EVERYTHING. Christ said we would have TO DIE DAILY. That gospel radically changes lives -- that gospel inspires persecution. Your gospel inspires god-fearing people to post on a cult education forum.

One thing that has dawned on me recently. I didn't learn ONE THING about the Bible while I was at TP. TP is more of a "self-help" church where you get self-improvement sermons each week with a few scriptures to make a point. But real true Bible instruction -- zip -- nada. Context, historical context -- all that good Bible study stuff -- we never got it. NEVER. So besides the red flags and the false teachings pouring out of there now -- TP really isn't a Bible-teaching church. I hate myself for even giving a few years to it.

Another thing someone said to me recently that was so telling -- this person said that they always look for a church with a balance of older versus younger people. Turning Point is such a "young" church. People under 40 all in leadership. Pastor Mike himself has even said "I am young, I don't know everything. Someday my views may change." If he had older, more mature people surrounding him -- things may not have gotten this far out of hand. But he has trained up all the "youngsters" around him -- young, impressionable, hungry-for-God people. Then he made them bow down and worship him with his charisma and charm. Now their fervor and zeal for God is skewed -- they can't see the truth.

My family may well find out that I post here. I'm scared to death of that -- I can't bear to lose relationship with them. But they have to know that I followed God on this decision. I cannot sit in a church week after week and hear things that aren't Biblical. I can't go to church where I leave feeling angry and not knowing why. I can't choke down red flags anymore. But my family is young, and I pray that as they mature they will see those red flags. Pastor Mike needs a course change -- that's all. He still has the raw talent and fervor God has given him -- but I believe his personal dysfunction is running a dysfunctional church. We all just have to continue to wait on God and deal with our own personal pain and loss. It's worse than divorce or death. It's horrible -- excruciating actually. What more can I say. But what I hate the most -- all my pain has turned to anger toward God. It's all so confusing and crazy-making. I was thinking today of moving out of the state -- leaving my family -- starting fresh somewhere else. I'm in agony.

Wondering Now,

I am so sorry for the difficulty that you are facing. I've heard some say that we struggle, b/c we left "the church". While it's true, that leaving TP was and continues to be a struggle, leaving TP does not mean that we've left "the church", it doesn't mean that we are not a part of the body of Christ, and the difficulties we face do NOT mean that we should have stayed at TP. Quite the contrary, actually.

It's interesting that you mention moving away. That was one thing that my husband and I had considered, several times, over the last few years. Somehow, leaving under the pretense of a new job, or family obligations seemed preferable to facing the realities of leaving b/c of the dysfunction that is at TP. We finally recognized this desire to move was simply running away, and since leaving TP, the desire to move has wained too. I know that your current situation is different, but I thought that I would share anyway, in case anyone else is experiencing the same thing.

And Die Quietly, I just wanted to add that I agree, many of us may seem bitter and angry, but that's b/c of the way that we've been treated (or seen others treated) since leaving TP, not the reason we've chosen to leave.

The church in Thessalonica was dealing with a myriad of issues and Paul had to deal with certain misconceptions and fears. While the church was growing certain problems had grown and others had been introduced by the arrival of false teachers claiming new revelation by the Spirit. In chapter 5 verse 21 Paul ends his letters with some edicts to the church, one of these was "test everything". An examination of the Greek reveals that Paul meant "test everything". That was sarcastic, I know. The message is simple though and the warning is as true then as it is today. Are you taking what your pastor says at face value? Are you comparing Mike's interpretation and application of the word of God to what you believe to be correct through the Holy Spirit's wisdom? When Mike says that you can "alter God's timetable through great faith" are you sure he correctly interpreted that passage in Matthew 15? Was that application to today's culture correct? How does that message compare to the message of the bible as a whole? Does it conflict with any other scriptures? WHY DON'T YOU KNOW??? You should know, if you don't you are not 'testing everything' and therefore merely following a man and not cultivating a personal relationship with Jesus.

Hi Brokenhearted - I hope you know that I was admitting to bitterness caused by pain - it was not a stab at people being bitter :).
I'm pretty sure you knew - just want to be sure!

Die Quietly.

TPWOC Sermon for Sunday Aug. 23rd False Apostle Mike is having a Crisis part 4 is now online at TPWOC home web site. Mike wants you to change your mindset. Mike is getting low on the money so he thinks giving money to him will get you out of your crisis! I believe Mike said that he looks forward to the day, its coming,its coming,in Jesus name, I look forward to the day when you come up to me and say please,please ,pastor Mike the Lord has blessed me I just want to give so much, and Mike just like Moses will say, stop the people are giving to much! Mike says that will be a fantastic service! Mike wants you to give beyond your ability! Give untill it hurts! Mike wants you to become expert givers. Mike says God told him to give up his scuba gear and he was crying over it! If you don't give to Mike you will be cursed! Mike says he teaches different than typical prosperity theology! Mike says to believe in a God who does not prosper it reguires ignorance or omission of scripture. That is all there is to it! There are hundreds of scriptures,you are just ignorant. Mike says the church is afraid of the word prosper! Mike says we are watching him in his crisis and he is having hardships. Mike has been having a crisis for 40 years! Mike says if you omit scripture you are not going to fit in at TPWOC.Mike says TPWOC is committed to the word of God! Mike says if you don't believe in a God who wants you to prosper then you believe in a God who wants you to fail! Mike says that is not what the scriptures teach, Mike knows God wants to prosper you! Next Sunday TPWOC will be having there budget meeting. Lets see if they cook the books. Lets not forget false prosperity teachers Casey Treat(the helicopter guy) , Dave Martin (self help guru), false Apostle Mike( I am having a crisis) and false self proclaimed prophet Cyndi ( why did we come back from that sabbatical) will be speaking at the decipleship conference. And PNBC (SOMA NW) will be having a Churh Planting Intensive on Sept. 22nd and 23rd. It is only $150.00 dollars for the two days. Mike I want you to give up your latte's, you have been spending to much time at Starbucks. You have a business, I mean church to run (destroy). And stop that silly twitter stuff, its not making you look like a normal person. I know why you are having a crisis, you have not been saying your prosperity bible verse ten times a day,like Dr. Increase( Bob Harrison) wanted you to do! Or maybe you lost your security blanket (Linus) and your losing the covering of the Apostle! Maybe you never had it! Its all been a bad dream Mike, it's time to wake up!

To continue on the same vein that I started in my previous post I have this question as well for the skeptics who are attacking those who have left.

Why is it that those who have followed not their emotions but the command of God to test what they are being taught called into question? Shouldn't the ones who have not done their due diligence be questioned? Shouldn't the ones who believe that “because it just feels right therefore it must be from God” be the ones who need to wake up? Why have you sat in your seat Sunday after Sunday blindly receiving what is being taught and assuming that it must be correct because he is ready from the bible? Don't the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses use the same bible to justify their beliefs?

Seems to me that some of you need to start being a good Berean (Acts 17:11) and do what Paul commended them for doing, testing what was taught by HIM! That's right, the greatest of apostles praised the people of Berea for not taking what he taught at face value but double checking it against the word of God.

If your heart does not break and bleed at reading some of the most recent posts, especially WonderingNow's, you are out of touch with what life is all about. (People and God's Word are the only two things that will last for all eternity.) I am devastated all over again at the people who are being harmed. My concern for these was my first and is my continuing reason for posting here.

WonderingNow, how I grieve for you! How I long for your restoration and healing! Like so many others here, I empathize with the debilitating grief of leaving and the painful realizations (and self-loathing) that come AFTER making that decision because you realize you should have seen things sooner...the red flags God faithfully provided...Oh! How I know!

Jesus said His true family are those who follow Him. You have a family that is bigger than your "natural" family or your Turning Point "family." God will surround you with them again. Hold on to Him! He is holding you safely in His strength and grace. I love you! And I love that you are standing in the truth despite the consequences. This is like dying, but you are in the hands of the God of resurrection! I am praying Hebrews 13:20 over you right now. How God loves you and does not despise you!

There is a great encouragement I have taken away from my experience at Turning Point (and maybe you can lay hold of this)...God is training His children to be able to detect deception so that we won't fall for it later, when the BIG deception comes. This boot camp has made us realize the imperative need to know the Word and to listen to the Holy Spirit's warnings ("red flags").

I am delighted that God is bringing all of us who are emerging--wounded, but wiser--out of bondage to the fear of man and into the light of truth that we must fear God alone. There is healing to be gone through, for sure, and I'm still struggling myself, but my faith is shedding some foolish niavete and being made more solid and stable in Christ alone and His enduring Word.

Your experience is not and was not wasted time. God is calling you to let all else fall away to follow Him. One day you will rejoice at how worth it it was to go through this pain. Hebrews 12!!!

"And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith. Because of the joy awaiting him, he endured the cross, disregarding its shame. Now he is seated in the place of honor beside God’s throne. Think of all the hostility he endured from sinful people; then you won’t become weary and give up. After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin....So take a new grip with your tired hands and strengthen your weak knees. Mark out a straight path for your feet so that those who are weak and lame will not fall but become strong."

Be encouraged! You are being made strong! With much love from your sister, Christine



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2009 01:22PM by LearningPoint.