Hello WalterMartin;
Mike presumes God's will to extend assumed authority to himself. Then he uses his newly created authority to quiet you and others and prevent you from questioning his agenda. He does not have any authority over your spiritual walk. He uses his over rated education as a club to beat you down with. He uses his assumed authority to question YOUR faith and control you. The questions you need to be asking yourself are these.

If I am to follow Christ and his word, why would I follow a spiritual doctrine of a man?
If I am to follow Christ and his word, how can my questions of one man be not of the word?
If I am to follow Christ and his word, why would God's will not apply to me? Why just to one man who claims it?
If I am to follow Christ and his word, why would I need to have a college degree to do this? Is his word not meant for all? Is his word not something that all can understand and follow?
Final question. If I am to follow Christ and his word, why is Mike not abiding by this and sharing it equally and as an equal partner in Christ? Why is he subverting Christ's word?

These questions are not for Mike. They are for you.

Sure Mike does nice things for people. And then shows it off like a badge of honor. Every possitive move he makes he takes full advantage of. He is not a modest man. He is not humbled. He is deseased with ego. He can not ask for your tithings for himself becasue he may not get them, so he makes himself an ark of the covenant to direct you and others to give money and belongings and sweat and toil until it hurts. He does not care how much you hurt. His goal of power and property has presedence.
He is a very very bad person and NOT a nice guy at all. He is nothing more that a glorified used car salesman, smiling and having fun with you while he picks your pocket and your life clean.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2009 10:50AM by Mville04.

WalterMartin:

Why did you pick the name Walter Martin?

Walter Martin was the founder of the Christian Research Institute in California, an organization historically devoted to exposing cults.

Until his death some years ago Martin exposed abusive churches.

Your comments seem somewhat muddled and confused.

Perhaps you have not completely sorted through your experience at Turning Point.

You might read "Churches that Abuse" and "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Churches that don't have democratically elected church government and meaningful financial transparency are prone to problems.

Hello forum-this will be the last post by tpcwocattender. When and if I post again it will be under a new forum name. The reason is that I no longer attend turning point church. Thank you for the conversation both anonymously and in person from those with whom I chatted. You have been helpful in making my decision.

I chose the forum name WalterMartin because I have studied many, many religions & denominations. I always use one of Walter Martin's insights on exposing cults. That was to go to the Public Library and view & print dated material available around the topic. Its for that reason alone I always think of Walter Martin first, when thinking about a cult.

As for the "muddled" statement, I am sorry I can't fully devulge the Child Abuse case. Its still being investigated. When the results come from the final meeting, after 3 years of investigation, I will know what I can and can't say about it.

As for the "confusion: statement, I apologize if people can't tell whether I am for TPC or against TPC. Well, I am neither for or against TPC. I have disagreements with them, but it doesn't mean I am against them. I haven't gone to there church for years now. I recognized authoritarian speech years ago. I have not been able to suggest their church to anyone (not that they need it) for 3 years. As far as their youth program, I have not sent any youth their direction for more than 3 years.

I have accepted the reasons I left TPC years ago. I wasn't abused there, nor have I stated any abuse (of any kind) happening there. Yes, I was hurt. I learned from it. I'm over it. I have not turned bitter, nor will I lash out at them. I would help to expose their authoritarian doctrine as false, though.

As for me, I choose to err on the side of objectiveness. When I say something negative, I offer something positive. And, I will always attempt not to assume which side someone is on. I will especially not assume someones stance on their 1st or even 2nd post.

I had hoped to tell of my story from TPC. I didn't fully explain either story. I wanted to give details, but had to leave them out because I wish to remain anonymous. For that, I apologize. However, the 2 incidents would be very pin-pointing to my identity.

---To RR---

I hope this better explains my story. Also, my response here is for the room. I didn't respond directly to you; but I responded to your questions.

Matthew18:15-17
15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Pastor Mike has been shown his error by numerous former members who managed to gain access in private before leaving TPC. He has individuals go to him just as Matthew prescribes. Pastor Jackie and two deacons confronted him and still he refuses to listen or see. These actions are those of a prideful and arrogant man. The only people who need to be checking their hearts are Pastor Mike and the Elders. Over a hundred people left TPC since the beginning of the year, many of them long time members and still Pastor Mike and the Elders continue down the broad road to their ultimate reward. When they stand in front of the Lord on Judgment Day and give an accounting and answer for all the people they have hurt, abused, and discarded -- then perhaps they will realize what so many tried to tell them for so long.

I was a long time member and left earlier this year like so many hurt and angry. I felt used and incredibly stupid for not seeing Pastor Mike and the Elders for what they really were years sooner.

I ran into an essay which sums up the lie that we were victimized by. It is called Becoming Rich under the Anointing. Here is the link, judge for yourselves.

http://www.letusreason.org/Wf28.htm



Saddened

So Walter Martin are you saying:

Walter Martins Warning to the Church (1988)

This message is not for the faint hearted, it is not a message of comfort for those who live in false teaching or protect teachers (these are excerpts from Walter Martin’s message).

[Background- Kenneth Copeland claims that Jesus said in conversation with Copeland that he never claimed to be God he only claimed he walked with God.

Dr. Martin had contacted Copeland by mail confronting him on this issue, but unfortunately his responses to Dr. Martin “were not kind or receptive.”

A short time after this statement was made here a conversation ensued with Paul Crouch (on TBN) on this very subject of Copeland's prophecy. “Were still questioning what was said about that prophecy, that prophecy never mentions the Son of God, it never said anything about the Son of God. “ (Crouch) What did it say? “It said I did not claim to be God!” that’s all it said.” (Crouch) “In other words in so many words your right nowhere in the New Testament did he literally get up and (Copeland interjects “preach and say I am God), say I AM God did he. Now I stand corrected.” (Ed. Note- It doesn't matter what Copeland thinks he did, but what did Jesus think he did.)

Now let’s go to Walter Martins Warning of the Word Faith Movement’s teaching to the church:

“If you have your Bible, if you have your Bible I'd like you to turn with me to Acts chapter 20. I'd like to read a few verses from this passage which I believe are very apropos today.

Talking to the elders in the church of Ephesus as he is preparing to go to Jerusalem where he will be bound by the Jews, and later to die. The apostle writes these words or speaks these words and Luke records them. I take you to record this day v.26, Acts 20:26. That is a direct quote from Ezek. 34 where the scripture says if you do not warn the wicked man of his wicked and he dies in his sin, I will hold you accountable for it. So we are suppose to warn the wicked of the wickedness they perform and also of the judgment of God upon them. If we don't we become accessories after the fact of their sins. So, Ezek. 34 is what Paul is definitely referring to. I want you to know I am free from the blood of all mankind because I am giving you the whole counsel take heed there unto yourselves and all the flock unto which the Holy Spirit has made you rulers. The Greek word episcopos- a ruler to fend or tend therefore the church of God which he has purchased with his own blood. “For I know this after I leave you savage wolves shall enter in among you and will not spare the flock.” No mercy and notice this from your own selves men shall arise speaking contrary things to draw away disciples after themselves.

Therefore watch and remember, for a period of three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day to the point of tears.” Now there is a twofold warning to the Christian Church. Now we are speaking this morning on the warnings of God, the warnings of God. This passage tells you that after the apostles would leave the Church there would be savage wolves, they are characterized as wolves. Ravenous wolves who will enter in and they will not spare the flock. Which means they will attack the flock from without, they will penetrate the sheepfold, and they will chew up the sheep. Now that’s as clear as crystal right here. I know this after I leave, this is going to happen. We have those savage wolves today. We have theologians in theological Seminaries and departments of religions of schools who literally chew up the flock. They chew up the people who are studying for the ministry and then they spit them out into our pulpits where they can chew us up. These are the savage wolves who come in not sparing the flock. Apostate’s in positions of authority in the Christian Church. Apostates who abdicate the ordination of homosexuals, forbidden and cursed of God. Apostate’s who deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Apostates who will ordain you if you deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection, and the 2nd coming. Apostate’s who denominate our denominational structures and our educational institutions. Apostates who have come in and are chewing up the Church. That is very clearly stated here that we are to lookout for these people. Paul said I warned you day and night for three years to the point of tears. Very important.

Now there is a 2nd part of this that is seldom preached on because when you preach on it people get upset in my ministry what else is new. It’s a occupational hazard because you have to tell them the whole counsel of God. Notice Paul’s emphasis here, “I have not avoided declaring unto you verse 27 “all or the whole counsel of God.” The whole counsel of God is to warn against the savage wolves, cultists occultists, non Christian religionists, atheistic and skeptical philosophers, psychologists whatever they may be, who have attacked the church from without and some
have penetrated and chewed up the church. Now there's a 2nd warning from God, this warning is one the Church has paid very little attention to and because we have paid so little attention to it, it has thrived and become lethal. Why? Because what's close to you that you don't see, it does you far more harm than something you can get in perspective and easily identify. So let’s take a good look at what he saying here. From your own selves v.30 you ought to mark Church itself, men
will arise. It does not say possibly, could, he said will arise. They will speak contrary the meaning of the word in the Greek, King James says perversion, the word in the Greek is contrary. They will speak contrary things for the purpose of drawing disciples after them selves. So the warning of God is against people in the church in positions of leadership and respect. Who will draw disciples surrounding themselves, whose allegiance is not to Christ, but to that person. And they will draw the disciples after themselves from within the church so that there is no accountability for what they say. Now this isn't my message this is the Pauline counsel to the Church at Ephesus. Warnings from the Holy Spirit. Look out for the wolves and lookout for the divisive schismatic leaders who will split and fragment and divide the church by attracting disciples to follow them.

Now the Scripture has many statements about false teachings and false prophets. Mt.7 gives one of the most frightening passages in all divine revelation it says and this is the lord Jesus speaking on the subject ( --- dressed as sheep but inwardly or spiritually you are dealing with savage wolves, you will know them by what they produce). Now Jesus has said something else that the Church has forgotten today. Jesus said in my name or if you want the actual meaning of the Greek text, by my authority- name means authority. When you say “stop in the name of the Law” to criminal fleeing, you are saying stop by the authority of what? The law. The law says you can't do that. Stop! When a King pronounces judgment in Old Testament times and recent times until kings went out of fashion. In the world a ruler person would say open the door in the name of the king….Alright once you get that concept in you mind Jesus said there will come men who will speak claiming there authority is from me. Now get that in your head carefully. There will come men who will speak in my name. That is, I am supposedly saying this to you, that is a very important phrase. There going to come and say I'm speaking to you in Jesus in my name they will work miracles in my name they will cast out devils… they will prophesy and preach. But when I meet them I will say leave me I never
knew you workers of iniquity. Why? Because they use his authority and his name, because the power was in Jesus name, or Jesus' authority not in them. And God honored the name of his Son. And they took that as a means of teaching there own false doctrines and false prophecies and because of that they corrupted the faith of the church. But inwardly, spiritually, they really roooaaar! And if you don't know fleece from fur your dinner, dumb dum. And the only way you can know fleece from fur is to know how to test them. You don't test them by Walter Martin, or by Norman Geisler, as good as the apologist and defenders of Christianity might be and as much as you trust them. You don't test them by other people, you test them by Scripture. Then if your fidelity is the Scripture, and your allegiance is the Scripture, you reject them! But says Paul in the last days, men are going to be drawn away by false teachers and prophets in the church speaking in the name of Jesus. And your not going to test them your going to go along with them. And there gonna fragment and divide the Church because you wont' test them.

Well it’s about time that we test them. Kenneth Copeland delivered the following prophecy during a three day victory campaign held in Dallas Texas. It is reproduced in the Voice of Victory 20th anniversary of his ministry. Found on page 9, his prophecy came from Jesus Christ. Copeland says, He quotes Jesus as saying. “You remember in my word I said to my disciples this kind comes not out by prayer and fasting.” He's talking now about the power of prayer. He goes on “Don't be disturbed (this is Jesus) when people accuse you of being God. The more you get to be like me God. But I didn’t claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in Me. Hallelujah.” That is a lying spirit. Look at me read my lips. “That is a lying spirit.” That is not the Holy Spirit. Now for ten years I have warned and I'm tape and in print on this. That we were heading into the kingdom of the cults with the faith teachers. You are no longer heading there baby, you are there! Just so you are not mistaken let me give it to you again. Jesus speaking- “The more you get to be like me (Jesus) the more there going to think that way of you. They crucified Me for claiming that I was God. But I didn’t claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with Him and that He was in Me. Hallelujah.” That’s what your doing.” Now this was on TBN, this on Christian Television and radio stations. This is tolerated by the Christian Church, particularly the charismatic wing because they will not obey the Lord Jesus Christ and they will not obey; what the Scripture says. They are taken by people and ministries. And by large crowds and jet airplanes and by affluence as supposedly the seal of success. If your big and your powerful and your rich and people come to hear you, automatically it must be from God. No! Automatically it isn't from God. You’re supposed to test what the person says by Scripture. And if you don't test it by Scripture you can be taking in spiritual arsenic or cyanide and it can ruin your Christian life and take your eyes off Christ. The Scripture says it will overturn the faith in the Church.

...Charismatic differences. This is far beyond doctrinal disputes, he speaks it in the name of Jesus. He's a liar, and the truth is not in him. Isa. 8:20 “If they do not speak according to this word they have, what? NO light in them,” in fact the Hebrew says there is no dawn. What deceives people about these false prophets is that out one side of their mouth the preach the gospel and out of the other side of their mouth they deny him who is the core of the gospel. And if you don’t put the two sides together you think your hearing Christianity. But your not!. The false prophets know that to get crowds they have to preach Christianity, the false prophets know that in order to have financial support they have got to get the church to contribute to them. So they will sound like the Church and they will prophesy in Jesus name, they will heal in Jesus name they will work miracles in Jesus name and then at the proper they will deny him. How do you know he's a false prophet. It’s easy, he said so. I wonder if people who read this THOUGHT! THOUGHT! They crucified me for claiming I was God, but I didn't claim I was God. He didn't? That’s strange language, John chapter 8, “your father Abraham rejoiced to se my day coming he saw it and he was glad. But they said your not even 50 years old yet. You saw Abraham?” Jesus said, “before Abraham came into existence I AM.” And they reach for stones to kill him. who'd they think he was? Obviously God. John Chpt.10 “for thy Good works we stone thee not but for blasphemy. That you being a man make yourself out to be”, Who? GOD! Now we are dealing here with the doctrine of antichrist. And its not coming from an apostate professor of a theological seminary its not coming from a Jehovah's Witness that knocks on your door. It's not coming from the Mormon missionary that peddles up. Its coming from Kenneth Copeland on your television set on your radio and in print and if you resist the false doctrines of antichrist elsewhere, why will you not resist here? The answer is very simple because people hear the gospel being preached and they automatically assume that the person preaching is a true prophet of God. No Jesus said, the false prophets can do it. They only way you can find out is test them. I'm not avoided declaring to you the whole counsel of God for the space of ten years. I have told you day and night to the point of rage.

Now it’s come full circle there it is. Quote on TBN, “Dogs beget dogs cats beget cats, and God beget Gods, you are little Gods.” Close quote. That’s Kenneth Copeland on your television set. You are Gods! No your not, your sinners saved by grace. And he's not a God, he's a sinner professing to be a Christian, and denying in prophesy in the name of Jesus what Jesus said. That’s a false prophet, I don't care how you spell it, if you say but look at the healings, look at the meetings, look at the miracles. READ Matthew Chapter 7, use your brains. Jesus said that’s exactly what's going to happen, there going to preach and prophesy in my name. They do! In my name there gonna work miracles, they do. In my name they cast out devils, they do! And then they deny Him. Jesus said look out for them, because there here! And they are here now. They are on our Television sets our radios and print. Now the question is, will you tolerate it? We should be bombarding TBN and every Christian channel that produces and distributes this stuff. And we should be telling them we will not support the doctrine of the Anti-Christ. You may not do this with my money, and furthermore I'm not going to send any money. And then in addition to that I'm going to actively discourage everybody I know from sending you any money. And when you hold financial support they listen, but not until. So I'm suggesting over the Bible Answer Man program that we start holding support to people and ministries that do this. And I'm going to get a lot of flak, your going to hear a lot of people coming after me, and I want you to know, I could care less. This is the TRUTH, what I'm telling you is the truth and if it is a voice crying in the wilderness it’s the truth.(clapping). And the Holy Spirit will see to it that they will listen. Because I am a prophetic voice in this and have been for decade, of course I don't for a moment believe I am a prophet, anymore than I believe I am an apostle. I'm a teacher, but you can speak with a prophetic voice, you can exercise apostolic office in given situations.

Believe me were in trouble, and if we don't something about really quickly your going to be in more trouble than you know what to do with. Because people are keep accepting these as Christian representatives. What were getting is the doctrine of anti- Christ. If you deny that you don't know your Bible. Jesus says through Copeland “I never claimed to be God.” That is not the Jesus of the Bible, you want me to tell you who it is, turn in your Bible to 2 Cor.11, I will tell you who it is. V.3 “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, … a different spirit … a different gospel” ….Then he goes on to say that there are false apostles, deceitful workman who transform themselves on the outside to look like the ministers of Christ but inwardly you are dealing with the imitation of Satan. I don't bring judgment or play God, that is not my role or yours. But if Jesus Christ said it and the New Testament teaches it and it is Biblical theology and we reiterate what the text says we are not playing God, we are being faithful to what God said. Is Kenneth Copeland a Christian? If he is a Christian, let him repent! Let him apologize to the Church! Let him forsake these false doctrines. He is not a God, he lies when he says anyone in the Church is a God. He lies when he says Jesus Christ gave him this prophesy, this did not come from the Lord Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul calls Jesus our great God and savior Titus 2:13. Acts chapter 20 which I just read says, God purchased the Church with his own blood. Well who died on the cross? God in human flesh and purchased the Church with his own blood. The whole New Testament declares they deity of Jesus Christ. “In the beginning was the word and the word with God and the word was God.” And Kenneth Copeland knows it as well as I do! But he's denying it, when you take your eyes off Scripture as the criterion for authority and you place it on experience and on people, and on revelations, and on messages that allegedly come from God, you are a set up for deception, you’re made for it. Because you don't have any way to check it. But you must check it. The title of his article is “Take time to pray.” That’s the title “Take time to pray.” No take time to obey, take time to obey Christ and to obey him is to proclaim him Lord of all. I am the alpha and omega the beginning and the end the first and the last the Almighty Rev. 1:7-8. Who is He? “He is coming with Clouds and every eye shall see him and he is the almighty.” Well that’s what Christ said about himself. Thomas said my Lord and my Jehovah. And worships him and Jesus said because you have seen me you believe Blessed is they that have not seen and believe. Kenneth Copeland quoted every one of these verses and then in a prophesy, originating with Jesus Christ, he can deny the identity of Jesus Christ. You are now dealing with false prophets. I don’t presume to judge the eternal destiny of men that is not our task but I will tell you one thing Biblically speaking If you say you are Christ’s property then you have Christ’s spirit. Romans 8:9. And whoever does not have Christ’s spirit is not Christ’s property. Christ’s spirit does not deny Jesus Christ. Christ’s spirit exalts him. This is a denial of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is Jesus speaking “I never said I was God, never claimed to be God.” No that’s a lie, “let God be true and every man a liar.” I want a repudiation of this. And a removal of these men from the Trinity broadcasting Network Station until they apologize to the Christian Church and repent of this evil. And if they won’t, then it must be the task of the Christian Church to oppose them vigorously, publicly. And tell it to the whole Church. And read this until people can’t stand to hear it anymore. Until they will act on it. Don’t you dare talk about fidelity to Jesus Christ, and love to Jesus Christ and allegiance to Jesus Christ and sit by while men deny him! Your gonna be consistent than be consistent in obedience.

You may sit here and say “You sound very angry!” I am, I may be one of God’s last angry men, but I’m angry for the right reason. I’m in the presence of the doctrines of the anti-Christ and I plan to be angry that way the rest of my life. And if you don’t hear me angry about those kind of doctrines please come and tell me as quickly as possible, because I have defected from the ministry. So I’m going to ask you to covenant with me in prayer that God will bring Kenneth Copeland to repentance for this blasphemy and there may be a open apology and repudiation of it in the Christian Church. And then until this is done we will remain constant in prayer and we will not support what we know to be evil doctrine. If we do that God will bless us and honor us, if we don’t do it were gonna reap an awful harvest.

This morning was a very difficult message to preach, the warnings of God. Because whenever you talk this way you bound to be misinterpreted and people are bound to think somehow or another you’ve got some ax to grind and your after somebody’s neck. I’m not but if I sit still in the presence of the doctrine of antichrist I’m an accessory to those doctrines and I fall under the condemnation of Acts chpt.20. If you go further into revelation chpt.2 later on, you will find that the Holy Spirit commends the Church in Ephesus, above all the seven Churches because they tested these people, just as Paul told them to and they found out they were liars. And the Spirit says, good job, you did what you were suppose to do and he commends the Ephesians for it. May God make us faithful in the tradition of the Ephesians. The lord Jesus Christ paid the price for all sin on the cross. The Lord Jesus Christ rose victoriously from the dead for our redemption we are saved by his life. The Lord Jesus Christ has given us spirit so we can walk with him, he has also given us his spirit so we might discern evil, as well as good.”

(Well Mr. Martin is no longer a voice crying in the wilderness. We can now look back to a real prophetic voice and see the church for the most part did not heed the warning, and has paid the consequences). Haunting isn't it. But Martin had inspired so many others to continue on (myself included) and so there are numerous apologetic ministries today doing the work that Martin left.

I know there will be some who will make the mistake of repeating like parrots what their leaders have said, (this is the reason why Martin died, he came against God’s anointed). But the fact is, Martin lived well beyond what he should have. But then, they would have to say the same for all their sick faith healers that teach divine healing is a guarantee and have died also. Certainly something to think about.

Saddened

TPAttender,

I am so sorry that it has come to this. I really am very, very sorry..........

Quote
Saddened
Matthew18:15-17
15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Pastor Mike has been shown his error by numerous former members who managed to gain access in private before leaving TPC. He has individuals go to him just as Matthew prescribes. Pastor Jackie and two deacons confronted him and still he refuses to listen or see. These actions are those of a prideful and arrogant man. The only people who need to be checking their hearts are Pastor Mike and the Elders. Over a hundred people left TPC since the beginning of the year, many of them long time members and still Pastor Mike and the Elders continue down the broad road to their ultimate reward. When they stand in front of the Lord on Judgment Day and give an accounting and answer for all the people they have hurt, abused, and discarded -- then perhaps they will realize what so many tried to tell them for so long.

I was a long time member and left earlier this year like so many hurt and angry. I felt used and incredibly stupid for not seeing Pastor Mike and the Elders for what they really were years sooner.

I ran into an essay which sums up the lie that we were victimized by. It is called Becoming Rich under the Anointing. Here is the link, judge for yourselves.

http://www.letusreason.org/Wf28.htm



Saddened

sad is exactly the way I still feel I didn't feel stupid for staying, even though I knew something was wrong, I kept thinking God will reveal the truth to Mike or to me, that He would show who was going the wrong way. I asumed it was me that was messed up and in rebellion, so I kept asking Him to change my heart. It is right and good that we search oursleves for fault before we point out others wrongs. I guess I was niave about the godly or self appointed godly anyway, there are many people in history who were totaly off in their beliefs and yet the truth was never revealed to them. People argued and lived their lives by the truth that the earth was flat. But God spoke to one to reveal His truth the earth was round. Im sure many still glung to the idea of a flat earth long after columbus reported it round

Attender: My heart is absolutely broken for you. I know you gave it your best shot to convince leadership of their error, but they would not listen. I am so angry. I will be leaving the church in the next couple weeks. I want to talk to leadership and explain why I'm leaving and I'm preparing my words. My words will be angry -- not abusive though. The Word tells us to "be angry and do not sin." I want them to hear my anger. I DO NOT understand how there can be so much smoke and they do not see the fire. I just cannot even begin to wrap my head around this. Healthy churches do not have loyal followers of Christ -- earnest seekers -- come and complain without valid concern Healthy pastors would welcome dialog so that their sheep could continue on the straight and narrow path. But Turning Point says WE ARE DECEIVED. WE ARE THE PERSECUTORS. Pastor Mike tells the staff people leave TP for 2 reasons -- they are called elsewhere OR they are deceived. How dare him call me deceived. How DARE him. I'm not called anywhere else. I'm called OUT OF TURNING POINT. I AM NOT DECEIVED. I have discernment -- my eyes are wide open. I AM DRIVEN OUT. D - R- I - V - E- N !

Now where will I go. I have to leave my blood family there, my friends, my community. So much for "God setting the lonely in families!" My family is now busted apart and I write this in tears because my church refuses to listen to my concerns. REFUSE! So I'm alone with no where to go.

I can understand a man like Mike being led astray -- any one of us can be led astray and deceived. Mike is not above repentance. if he will listen. What I cannot understand is the eldership IGNORING the people's cries. I cannot understand why they won't stand up to Mike. Why can't they see? Why? I just don't get it.

Oh God! Why do you do nothing? Please please please -- reveal this error. Humble Mike or remove him. Please God for the glory of your name and for your love for your people at that church. Please God. We believe in miracles. Can't you do one at Turning Point? We cry out for your mercy and we wait in expectant anticipation of what you will do. Please reveal the truth to the people still there so that they aren't led astray. When falsehood is preached -- when Mike says such UTTERLY STUPID THINGS LIKE "Jesus was DRESSED" -- open the eyes of your people. OPEN THEIR EYES! I beg for your mercy on this church.

Dear Walter Martin,

What I think everyone is trying to convey here is that much of us had "open minds" at one time and we went in researching with open minds. What we want to convey here is that to say you are not for TPC but not against it is like saying " i am not for or against taxs" please explain what you mean in a little more detail, but i understand if you would wait on divulging your identity.

What was your experience at TPC, positive, negative?

Do you think they have more bad fruit than good fruit, (if you haven't watched "Church Mafia" you should, you can find it on youtube)?
Do you think the secretive nature gives to there creditability or takes away?
Do you think that God is glorified in there services?
Do you think God would be proud (happy) to say that TPC is a church representing his son?

I can not honestly answer in favor for TPC on any of these issues, meaning if GOD is not glorified they are covering up the truth therfor being a destructive towards unity, and I don't think God is happy with how they are handling the situation; am I for or against them?

If I am for Unity- I am against lies....secrecy and the bunch. (TPC)
If I am for God being glorified- Then i disagree with how they preach, teach, lie, steal, and spiritually manipulate people.
If I am for pleasing God- I am against how they handle these situations (that is people leaving, that is with out regard for there well being)

Please understand, I know why people go to TPC, i was one of them... I shared in the same experience "HIGH" that everyone else did. I am opened minded about hearing people out and respecting opinions, but ultimately there is Truth and i will stand up for it, and for TPC is just one of many churches that destroy the work of Christ through leading people to the church and then dumping them on the streets when you don't agree, although they preach the gospel, they look good.... but when the gospel comes with pretenses of perfection, wealth, health, submission to an authority, or anything else but the unending grace of Christ and with our faith (in his son), it is not the gospel and should be preached against.

I hope you understand and thank you for taking your time to read this
Kyle Conner Frazier



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2009 02:37AM by Forgiveness_101.