What a Joke,

I think that you bring up a good point. Turning Point propaganda. I have found that it's difficult sometimes to seperate myself, and the truth from the propaganda. I have to make a consious effort to weigh everything... every decision I make, everything I say, every thought I have......

That's is why I have found this forum helpful. The dialog, the differing opinions, the ideas, they all help me to see how my thought patterns and decision making was so greatly influenced by what I was taught and how I was treated at TP. I'm gald that attender shared his feelings on this subject, and that others have had the opportunity to weigh in. In the end, he may not change his mind, but at least he's having the opportunity to see things from a different perspective than that of TP.

That said I would also like to add that I agree with Learning Point. These couple of incidences are not in isolation, TP youth are characterized by this behavior. I know a number of people that have had *run ins* with TP youth. Yes, ultimately it's the job of the parents to train and discipline their children, but when the kids are left in the care of leaders at TP, I think that it's reasonable to expect that they are going to be taught to behave in a manner that is consistant with their *faith*. Was this outing a TP event? I didn't get the impression that it was. However, I have seen with my own eyes similar behavior during TP sponsored youth events. There is a lot of *authority* given to the young people, and very little supervision. It's not surprising that this is the type of behavior that follows.

At last year's middle school camp, the kids were kept up until midnight or later each night in prayer and worship. They were then woken up by 6am the next morning. Then, the leaders were handing out energy drinks to the kids during the day. I wonder how this lack of sleep and stimulation effects these kid's behavior (and their development)? Again, I wonder, is it any surprise that these kids have poor behavior in public?

And lastly, I agree with Buddy. One of the reasons that we decided to leave was b/c of our children. We did not want our children exposed to the corruption and lies and false teachings any longer. I dearly love Jeff and Eryn Moors, but their teachings come directly from Pastor Mike, and I did not want my children to be indocrinated any deeper than what had already been done.

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Brokenhearted
What a Joke,

I think that you bring up a good point. Turning Point propaganda. I have found that it's difficult sometimes to seperate myself, and the truth from the propaganda. I have to make a consious effort to weigh everything... every decision I make, everything I say, every thought I have......

That's is why I have found this forum helpful. The dialog, the differing opinions, the ideas, they all help me to see how my thought patterns and decision making was so greatly influenced by what I was taught and how I was treated at TP. I'm gald that attender shared his feelings on this subject, and that others have had the opportunity to weigh in. In the end, he may not change his mind, but at least he's having the opportunity to see things from a different perspective than that of TP.

That said I would also like to add that I agree with Learning Point. These couple of incidences are not in isolation, TP youth are characterized by this behavior. I know a number of people that have had *run ins* with TP youth. Yes, ultimately it's the job of the parents to train and discipline their children, but when the kids are left in the care of leaders at TP, I think that it's reasonable to expect that they are going to be taught to behave in a manner that is consistant with their *faith*. Was this outing a TP event? I didn't get the impression that it was. However, I have seen with my own eyes similar behavior during TP sponsored youth events. There is a lot of *authority* given to the young people, and very little supervision. It's not surprising that this is the type of behavior that follows.

At last year's middle school camp, the kids were kept up until midnight or later each night in prayer and worship. They were then woken up by 6am the next morning. Then, the leaders were handing out energy drinks to the kids during the day. I wonder how this lack of sleep and stimulation effects these kid's behavior (and their development)? Again, I wonder, is it any surprise that these kids have poor behavior in public?

And lastly, I agree with Buddy. One of the reasons that we decided to leave was b/c of our children. We did not want our children exposed to the corruption and lies and false teachings any longer. I dearly love Jeff and Eryn Moors, but their teachings come directly from Pastor Mike, and I did not want my children to be indocrinated any deeper than what had already been done.

My kids are not old enough to be in one-eighty. In all fairness I really can't speak with any authority on this subject. I still think it a parental issue at its root though. I should however keep my comments to myself on anything specific about the goings on at one-eighty.

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TurningPointReject
Okay folks...lets get back on topic. The youth at the movie theater incident is ridiculous. If this were a "youth sponsored event" then I would say the concerns are legitimate. If this were just a bunch of kids acting...like...kids... Then its a matter of parental involvement.

Personally, I do not hold my church responsible for the behavior of my children. I am the authority that God has placed in their lives. I am the one responsible for teaching them social and civil skills, not my church. Lets not trivialize the very real concerns about Turning Point Church by pointing at a handful of kids...being kids. This is more a reflection on their own immaturity than it is on TPc. Again...if this were a church sponsored outing...with youth leaders in attendance then it is a legit concern. Otherwise...lets get back on topic.

A word for you folks dialogging with TPCattender: It is appropriate to challenge his positions. Lets do so in a loving, respectful manner. Many of us were once in his position. God knows all hearts and all motives. Lets not forget this truth. Pray for TPCattender; pray for me; pray for one another.

With due respect to your concern TPR, I do not think the post was off topic. I was not exaggerating when I said I had seen many such instances of disrespect by youth who were being given leadership responsibilities and even being looked to as KEY people in the church youth program. I believe this IS a BIG issue to be discussed. I believe the little apples do not fall far from the Mike and Cyndi tree. I think it's a mistake to minimize instances that reveal this sickness.

It's not like in a "normal" church situation with "normal" family relationships. Everything's so skewed there and out of whack. Yes, if it were a "normal" situation, as with your own kids, it would be handled as you said. But no church I have ever attended has had the kinds of attitudes from kids that I see at TP. I've seen normal "cutting up" from kids inside and outside the church, but even given that, I've never seen or heard of a kid from a youth group--a kid who is known as being a "lead" kid--stand up in a public place and shout that kind of comment to an adult. (And it's not like his toe got run over and he let slip a curse; it was an "I'm above taking your input" attitude. Remind you of anyone else?)

Let me give another instance, because I honestly believe that rampant arrogance among Turning Point youth--an arrogance I've never witnessed before in any other youth group--is another serious symptom of the leadership's attitudes.

There's a young woman who was HIGHLY acclaimed among the youth and is still looked to as a paragon of virtue among young adults (a spiritual daughter of leaders). She was helping regularly with a ministry, and had committed to being at a certain place at a certain time to help an older adult help set up for that ministry. The adult had called this young person the day before to confirm. This young person, although she wasn't delayed nor detained, decided not to show when she said she would. It put things in a bind to get ready for the service, and when the older adult asked her about it after she finally arrived, the young person had a harsh response, an arrogant response. The older person was taken aback by the disrespect and spoke sharply in return but later apologized and (I think she over apologized, but...) said she felt she should wash this youth's feet (typical of the Turning Point mindset of over-spiritualizing stuff), and do you know what that youth said in response to the older adult?! She said, "Yes, I think you should." Can you even imagine having such an attitude toward an adult as a young person? Ever uttering such a comment?

I have any number of examples like that TPR. That's why I think what B2H shared is VERY on topic.

So when Attender shoots down our comments from his perspective, I'm going to push back when my perspective differs. It's not out of lack of caring about Attender or anyone else; it's out of lack of agreement--sometimes adamant disagreement. And I'd like to have the right to disagree without putting on my kid gloves. I hope if anyone is offended by my posts, they'll contact me via PM and explain what has offended them. I'd be glad to hear you out. Then if there's a private or public apology to make, I'll make it quickly.

When we attended TPC, I was impressed with how many young people went to church there. In fact, I was astounded. I couldn't figure it out i.e. what was the recipe for such high numbers of youth? Have you ever watched the movie Logan's Run? It was much like that movie that if you're over 30, you are not hip and are useless. I couldn't help but notice the worship teams were mostly young people except for a token old person over 30. But then I heard that M & C "poured out" to the youth group twenty something. I began to wonder why, but then I realized when Megan Minnick said to me "I've never had to attend any other church that TP because it has everything I need and has raised me." All I could think about was the ignorance of youth and what bliss she must have to not realize there is a whole world out there just waiting to eat you alive. The reality is that TP goes in to schools and focuses on young people because they are easy to manipulate and form into little idol worshipers. They are forming a fan base for their young children who will worship the Villamoor children in time. Soon, their daughter will have a husband who is far above her because she will be lifted up far above where she should be. I realized soon that my husband and I would never "fit" there. We simply were too old. But even more pervasive, I realized I was beginning to worship Cyndi like everyone else. The only time she would respond to me is if I sent a worshipful e-mail to her. I found her unapprochable and cold. Sometimes I feel torn, because I think that both her and Mike have a sweetness to them. I think that is probably the part of them that God loves. But this whole egomaniacle thing that TP has become is just so out there. The other thing that I couldn't figure out, from a business sense, is that when you have so many young people in non-professional low wage paying jobs, how do you get the tithes that you need for a heatlhy church? Well, I didn't realize that these kids probably give not only their time, but just about everything they earn to receive back a higher portion from God. It became evident during our attendance there that what you did in the world for work meant absolutley nothing. No one cared about what you did unless it was to glorify the body of TPC. That was really weird. Like, there is no world outside of TP. It is it's own little/big community.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2009 11:13AM by tell the truth.

As fivefold ministers, Pastor Mike and the rest of his pastoral staff (the "anointed"), need to understand that your anointing is not above accountability the remaining congregation and the rest of the Body of Christ. This directly addresses the un-biblical and twisted notion of fivefold ministry and its authoritarianism. Some where Pastor Mike has lost the fact that the good news of the Gospels and the truths of the Bible were enough and sufficient to meet our every need and to supervise our walk with God. Fivefold pastors walk on a lofty plane of authority that considers Christians to be mere subjects who are to meekly submit to their authority for their spiritual good. My interpretation of the Bible tells me that Jesus bought my freedom and I am a co-heir with him in the kingdom of God. I am not a subject to be used and abused by any human being. The consultant told Mike and Cindy that they could do a better job communicating with their congregation which means they should have listened to Pastor Jackie and Mauro Lasso. In order to communicate with people you have to listen which involves exchanging information and not ignoring or discounting opposition as being divisive and disloyal. But with TPC you are either a believer, which means that believe the lie or act like you do for whatever reason you delude yourself with, or your are an enemy because you know the truth and refuse to buy into the lie.

People tried to speak truth and were shut down and called divisive and they got hurt. People got hurt because of the secrecy and lies perpetrated by TPC leadership. People who stepped up to pay for the items their ministry needed so they could do their job week in and week out, because they were told there was no money in the budget to pay for what they needed even though TPC took in $69,000.00 per month, got hurt when they found out why there was no money. People got hurt when they discovered that two families were being paid ridiculously large sal aries that enabled them to afford McMansions on Fire Trail Hill . There was no money to pay lower staff members living wages, there was no money to help those at TPC dire need, there was only leadership insisting on double honor for themselves - and people got hurt.

What if those who got hurt and left weren't wrong as TPC Leadership suggests. What if the people who left since the move to the Junior High weren't wrong, what if they were right. It really isn't all about Pastor Mike abnd Pastor Jeff Barnes because the staff and the elders had to buy into the lie to make it work. Looking at the who's who list of who has left TPC is telling. There is no excuse you can give which makes the decision to stay anything more than a lie. God does not reward liars, cheats, and enablers. Enabling Pastor Mike is every bit as bad as the lie that Pastor Mike is trying to sell to put "butts in seats."

Daughter of Dorcas

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TurningPointReject
Okay folks...lets get back on topic. The youth at the movie theater incident is ridiculous. If this were a "youth sponsored event" then I would say the concerns are legitimate. If this were just a bunch of kids acting...like...kids... Then its a matter of parental involvement.

Personally, I do not hold my church responsible for the behavior of my children. I am the authority that God has placed in their lives. I am the one responsible for teaching them social and civil skills, not my church. Lets not trivialize the very real concerns about Turning Point Church by pointing at a handful of kids...being kids. This is more a reflection on their own immaturity than it is on TPc. Again...if this were a church sponsored outing...with youth leaders in attendance then it is a legit concern. Otherwise...lets get back on topic.

A word for you folks dialogging with TPCattender: It is appropriate to challenge his positions. Lets do so in a loving, respectful manner. Many of us were once in his position. God knows all hearts and all motives. Lets not forget this truth. Pray for TPCattender; pray for me; pray for one another.

Hey there TPR, I'm sorry, I kinda have to disagree with you. LearningPoint is right.

1. YES, Parents are responsible for their children and behavior. We have youth who are down right disrespectful of Adults and personal property. With that being said, the youth at TPC being "groomed" and told that they are above it all, well, M&C has had alot to do with the youth having no respect for anyone. Think now, I wasn't even allowed to say yea or nea for my own daughter. It was like I was a baby carrier.

2. I agree that we need to be appropriate with our words and keep things in perspective. ATTENDER has dished it right out sometimes with no regards to others. This person still comes off very defensive and in all honesty, I don't really discern that this person is actually trying to "get out" of TPC.

I may be way off base and wrong, but I do feel that there are people here or reading that are from TPC Elders and Deacons and whoever has GREAT loyalty and idolize M&C. Listen to Mikes sermons ~ it's all in there.... "Shutting the Mouths of Lions", etc.

The Lord teaches us to be humble, gracious, loving and kind. However, many times in the bible He does warn us to be on the wall watching. Lastly, he also says don't throw your pearls before swine. So no matter what or the many testimonies here, is it REALLY helping ATTENDER? I find that whoever they are, have gotten more and more defensive. Please, I am no way near perfect and I can shoot my mouth off when I'm upset. Then God comes down or brings someone in my path to level me off. THAT's the way brothers and sisters in Christ is suppose to do for eachother.

It's after midnight.... Please pray for our son, he's almost 9. we've been at the hospital (1 1/2 hrs!!!! That's a breaker!!) he has a minor concusion and sinus infection. He will be home tomorrow for observation. Have a great blessing of a week everyone!!!

Miki

We are praying for your son, Miki!

Please watch this video.

[www.youtube.com]

TPWOC sermon for Sunday May 10 Great Faith-a Mothers Great Faith by Pastor Mike is now on line TPWOC web site. Pastor Mike said he recieved a prophetic word from God when he came back from sabbatical and that is TPWOC will be the most happy, most free, most gracious, funniest people in the northwest.He speaks it over you, so you know its true. What gift did Pastor Mike give the women at TPWOC for Mothers day? Pastor Mike gave a reinactment of being circumcised on a dining room table without a scalpel. Pastor Mike tells the ladies to leave the room. Mike then screams really loud like he just cut it. Pastor Mike's scream sounded like Howard Deans scream during the past election! Pastor Mike said his Mom birthed greatness. Does Mike have a brother? Or was he talking about himself. What a humble guy. Pastor Mike said pride is not a issue. I believe Pastor Mike said that your great faith covers your mistakes. Did he forget to read 1 John 1:9. I believe this great faith stuff Mike believes in has turned into his power source and he believes he can control Gods will just like the false word-faith teachers like Casey Treat. Pastor Mike says to speak it out, thats a term the false teachers like to use. They believe you can speak out your reality through your words through your power of faith. I believe Pastor Mike said that the issue is not of Gods sovereinty, but we can adjust Gods time table. Just stir up your faith. Pastor Mike I believe said that he takes Gods place in the car and Mike takes Gods seat or place. You must advance your faith by stiring it up. We must move in faith mode. God is always willing to bend to faith. Mike said faith will be tested by silience and by offense. I believe it's why he ignores people and its hard to get a appointment with him. The more offense the greater faith. I believe Pastor Mike said that offense is the filter through the only way faith can pass. He said Jesus was offensive, mean and upset people and people with out faith disappear and people with faith stay close.( So what ever you do don't leave TPWOC or you won't have Great Faith like Pastor Mike)

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2. I agree that we need to be appropriate with our words and keep things in perspective. ATTENDER has dished it right out sometimes with no regards to others. This person still comes off very defensive and in all honesty, I don't really discern that this person is actually trying to "get out" of TPC.
- You, miki, dish it out also. . . ie, the point above. This person is OBVIOUSLY going through hard times, in fact, I KNOW what this person is going through.
TO ALL WHO ARE READING THIS:
For Crying Out Loud! Let's all assume for a minute Attender IS making a decision right now, cut this person some slack! Did you all never, even once, defend TPwoc/TP when you were deciding to leave or not? I know for a fact some of you did. . . I did!
When you make a tough decision it's ok to play devils advocate. . . and, in all fairness, Attender has apologized EVERY time Attender's said something somebody took wrong.
ANYWAY doesn't satin rise up most, right when god starts to do something great (even in peoples lives)?
REGARDLESS of what attender comes off as, please stop attacking this individual. I know for a fact Attender is TRULY debating leaving TP. . . THAT'S A HUGE decision; a life decision. Let's agree to disagree and help this person. Maybe give this person support before they make a devastating change.
Would not our lives been a little easier with support before we left? Mine would have.

thank you.

also, i do not go to TP, never will go to TP again, and have also been hurt by TP tremendously. I AM not defending TP or offender. Just encouraging all to keep telling their stories and support each other. . . including those caught up in a mess, not strong enough to get out, or, feeling led to stay in.