Current Page: 1 of 351
Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 18, 2008 11:59AM

Seems like this church has been mentioned in conjunction with other threads, namely those related to RLC in Sacramento. Rather than lump TPCWOC in with RLC I believe it appropriate to start its own unique thread. There are those who question whether TPCWOC is destructive in the same vein as RLC (as testified to by those posting in this forum). Maybe TPCWOC is and then again maybe it isn't. Here is your space to tell of your experience at TPCWOC in Marysville WA.

I left the church while it was still in its infancy. I found that the influence of one particular person in Sacramento CA was affecting the views and decisions of the locals leaders. When I informed the leaders that I was leaving the church I was informed that the church body would be warned against associating with me. I found that interesting. Suddenly I had become this radically dangerous wolf waiting to devour the flock when just days earlier I was a faithful worker, part of the volunteer leadership team. My crime? Questioning the wisdom of a decision being made by the pastors regarding leadership accountability. When I inquired as to how the leaders came to their decision I was told, bottom line, this is what Tony C (pastor at a church in Sacramento CA) believes.

I knew then who the true leader of that church would be and decided that leadership by proxy is not safe nor healthy. That is when I decided to leave. I am not sure I would have called the church "destructive" at that stage in their life-they were barely a year old-but I did sense some control and manipulation issues were evident.

I have since heard from others who used to attend TPCWOC and have left. Perhaps they will choose to share their stories in this thread. All the same, it is not beneficial to throw TPWOC into the RLC threads. So for those of you who know Turning Point in Marysville, to those of you who have been ostracized by leaders because you dared to raise questions, to those of you
who have been hurt in your journey while attending TPCWOC or SOMA NW; to those of you who seek to defend TPCWOC practices and methods here is your own thread.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 18, 2008 12:05PM

The following questions come from the book: Recovering from Churches That Abuse, by Ronald Enroth, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Zondervon, 1994. They are helpful when discussing your own experience and evaluating the comments of others as they post here.

1. Does a member’s personality generally become stronger, happier, more confident as a result of contact with the group?

In an abusive church, the use of guilt, fear, and intimidation to control members is likely to produce members who have a low self-image, who feel beaten down by legalism, who have been taught that asserting oneself is not spiritual.

One of the first disturbing characteristics to be reported by relatives and friends of members of these churches is a noticeable change in personality, usually in a negative direction.

2. Do members of the group seek to strengthen their family commitments?
Nearly all unhealthy churches attempt to minimize the commitments of their members to their family, especially parents.

Young people may be told that they now have a new “spiritual” family, complete with leaders who will “re-parent” them.

Church loyalty is seen as paramount, and family commitments are discouraged or viewed as impediments to spiritual advancement.

3. Does the group encourage independent thinking and the development of discernment skills?

Control-oriented leaders attempt to dictate what members think, although the process is so spiritualized that members usually do not realize what is going on.

A pastor or leader is viewed as God’s mouth piece, and in varying degrees a member’s decision making and ability to think for oneself are swallowed up by the group.

Pressure to conform and low tolerence for questioning make it difficult to be truly discerning.

4. Does the group allow for individual differences of belief and behaviour, particularly on issues of secondary importance?

A legalistic emphasis on keeping rules and a focus on the need to stay within prescribed boundaries is always present in unhealthy spiritual envionments.

Lifestyle rigidity in such groups increase a member’s guilt feelings and contributes to spiritual bondage. This rigidity is often coupled with an emphasis on beliefs that would not receive great attention in mainstream evangelicalism.

5. Does the group encourage high moral standards both among members and between members and non members?

In intense, legalistic churches and religious organizations, the official, public proclamations usually place special value on high moral standards.

In some instances, there is a double standard between those in leadershp and those in the rank and file membership.

Abusive churches tend to have incidents of sexual misconduct more often than most conventonal churches; leaders sometimes exhibit an obsessive interest in matters relating to sex.

6. Does the group’s leadership invite dialogue, advice and evaluation from outside its immediate circle?

Authoritarian pastors are usually threatened by any outside expression of diverse opinions, whether from inside or outside the group. When outside speakers are given access to the pulpit, they are carefully selected to minimize any threat to the leadership’s agenda.

Coercive pastors are fiercely independent and do not function well in a structure of accountability.

For the sake of public relations, they may boast that they are accountable to a board of some sort, when in actuality the board is composed of “yes-men” who do not question the leader’s authority.

7. Does the group allow for development in theological beliefs?

Another hallmark of an authoritarian church is its intolerance of any belief system different from its own.

They tend to measure and evaluate all forms of Christian spirituality according to their own carefully prescribed system, adopting an “us-versus-them” mentality.

8. Are group members encouraged to ask hard questions of any kind?

A cardinal rule of abusive systems is “Don’t ask questions, don’t make waves.”

A healthy pastor welcomes even tough questions. In an unhealthy church disagreement with the pastor is considered to be disloyalty and is tantamount to disobeying God.

People who repeatedly question the system are labelled “rebellious”, “unteachable”, or “disharmonious to the body of Christ”.

Persistent questioners may face sanctions of some kind such as being publicly ridiculed, shunned, shamed, humiliated, or disfellowshiped.

9. Do members appreciate truth wherever it is found even if it is outside their group?

Whether they admit it or not, abusive churches tend to view themselves as spiritually superior to other Christian groups.

This religious elitism allows little room for outside influences. There can be no compromise with external sources, who, the leadership will say, really don’t understand what is going on in the ministry anyway.

10. Is the group honest in dealing with nonmembers, especially as it tries to win them to the group?

Sometimes abusive groups illustrate a “split-level religion”. There is one level for public presentation and another for the inner circle of membership.

The former is a carefully crafted public relations effort, the latter a reality level experienced only by the “true believers”.

Recruitment tactics are usually intense, even if they are not actually deceptive or fraudulent, they can be manipulative or exploitive.

Sometimes high pressure religious groups are evasive about there ture identity: “We really don’t have a name, we’re just Christians.”

A healthy Christian group should have no qualms about revealing who it is and what its intentions are.

11. Does the group foster relationships and connections with the larger society that are more than self-serving?

First impressions are not always correct. Sustained contact with an First impressions are not always correct. Sustained con
tact with an unhealthy church, however, will usually reveal a pattern that is consistent with the characteristics we have identified.

Members will be requested to serve, to become involved, to sign up for a variety of activities that, upon closer inspection, appear to maintain the system and serve the needs of the leadership.

Abusive churches thrive on tactics that promote dependency.

Emphasizing obedience and submission to leaders, these churches often require a level of service that is overwhelming to members, resulting in emotional turmoil and spiritual breakdowns.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: BraveHeart ()
Date: October 19, 2008 05:02AM

TPR yes
this is a great idea to keep the testimonies for each church on diffrent forums.

however I think it will be hard to keep the Forums from crossing over as there seams to be so much that these two churches have in common. That being Tony Cunningham.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 19, 2008 01:16PM

These bare repeating on this thread. Again these are helpful when evaluating the comments of those on this forum as well as evaluating your own experiences in your local church setting. How many of these feel familiar to you?


The following are some examples of what may take place IN ANY CHURCH where spiritual abuse and unbiblical authoritarianism may be present.

(Some points may be excerpts from the book, “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”)


Many leaders of abusive churches, usually behind closed doors, often treat people cruelly and
abusively, even resorting to yelling and finger pointing. Past sins are recounted, unkind statements are made, and those being “counseled” are often castigated when they express disagreement with what is being said about them or others. Ones' questions or expressions of concern or doubt about church practices or about a leader are frequently viewed as the questioner's problem – he or she is a "rebel", "proud", "arrogant", "hates authority", is "divisive”.

Sinful treatment of church members however, does not occur behind closed doors all of the time. Most all members have personally observed individuals during public services, being disparaged or ridiculed from the pulpit or mentioned in sermons as “points of application.” Even when the individual's name is not mentioned, it is often abundantly clear who is being referenced.


Power-postruing is very characteristic in an abusive church system. Power-posturing simply means that leaders spend a lot of time focused on their authority and reminding others of it as well. This is necessary because their “spiritual authority” isn’t real – based on genuine godly character – it is postured.

Recently, a young couple told of attending a church where the “pastor” insisted that members treat what he says as if Christ Himself had said it because, “..In this flock, I’m the shepherd.” If this pastor’s spiritual authority were real, he would not have to demand that others notice it. Nor would he step into the idolatrous position he places himself in, assuming the place reserved for the King of Kings! The fact that “church leaders” are eager to place people under them – under their word, under their “authority” – is one easy-to-spot clue that they are operating in their own authority.

HIJACKING OF MARRIAGES (The most insidious of all aberrations)

“What God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”

In an authoritarian – abusive church system, those in “church leadership” positions reveal their true colors over and over again when it comes to this verse of Scripture. Jesus’ words, Scripturally speaking, are being spit upon and trampled under foot by these spiritual monsters; wolves in sheep’s clothing (Matt. 7:15)

In an abusive church system, husbands and wives are being instructed to separate and even divorce from their spouse when one of them “rebels” (that is, when they begin to clearly understand the Scripture) against the “leadership.” This evil counsel is right from the pit of hell itself. Church members are falsely being taught a scaled down rendition of the marriage institution and many are being led down to the slaughter house in order that the abusers' own man-made “position of authority” in the church can now be exalted and take precedent high above the authority of the husband and the marriage institution itself.

So what happens now is this: when the word gets back to the “pastors/elders” concerning one spouse who is beginning to question or disagree with what’s going on in the church, “battle mode” is now implemented. The “other spouse” will now be working with the “church leadership” to turn their mate around and “bring them to their senses” or to “make them an example” and “fix em’ good!” But when all else fails, separation and divorce in the next and final option. And the “obedient” spouse is all too eager to comply because this is what they have been taught.

Is a spouses’ decision to question the “pastor”, or church doctrine, or policy, or even to leave the church to attend another, so evil and rotten that the other spouse is being “counseled” to separate or even divorce if necessary from them? According to the lord's of the spiritual abusing institution, absolutely yes!

“Yes, this is evil and rotten because they are not honoring ME as they ought and they are refusing to ‘bow the knee’ to my authority over them! They will not acknowledge the three spheres of government that has been set up: 1) ‘the church’, 2) ‘civil’, and 3) ‘domestic.’ You dare not interfere with MY AUTHORITY, which is the churches authority!”

This unbiblical nonsense is being taught and imbibed by many. (See A Word to the Wives)

Who would ever have thought 100 years ago, that this will be the sad state of affairs in the “protestant churches” today. Who would ever have thought that articles need to be written warning the church members of this evil, diabolical teaching that wicked shepherds are engaging in. Surely, right before our very eyes, evil men and imposters are waxing worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Tim. 3:13.

Instead of the Scriptural order of God, Christ, Man, Woman; now is has become God, Christ, pastor/church, man, woman!

Instead of the Scriptural command to wives that they be subject to their own husbands in everything; now it has become wives be subject to your own husbands in everything.......domestic!

Instead of the Scriptures stating that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ also is the head of the Church; now we have “THE ELDERSHIP” being head over BOTH OF THEM……EVEN AS Christ is head of the Church!

And instead of having, “What God has joined together, let not man put asunder”; we now have “Let the ‘pastor’ put asunder, what God has joined together.”

It doesn't get much crazier than this!

If there ever was a day when God might bring fire down from heaven upon the heads of these men with their despicable teachings and despicable behavior of “authority gone wild,” these are the days in which we are living. These are the days in which the “Lord is still a jealous God and avenges; the Lord avenges and is full of wrath; the Lord takes vengeance on His adversaries, and reserves wrath for His enemies.” Nahum 1:2

These are the days of Ezekiel 34 where the shepherds feed themselves; where the shepherds refuse to strengthen, refuse to heal, refuse to bind up that which was broken, refuse to bring back that which was driven away, refuse to seek after that which was lost; but with force and with rigor have the shepherds ruled over them.

The false teachings of these spiritual abusers in putting themselves and their “church” first,
has led to these dastardly deeds that are occurring everywhere.

But be not deceived. God is not mocked.

We’re living in dark dangerous times. Many “churches” today are no longer a “safe haven” to bring ourselves and our families to. The works of darkness, (Eph. 5:11; 6:12); the ministers of Satan, (2 Corth.11:15); the characteristics of the churches in all of Revelations Chapter 2 & 3 are ever present in these authoritarian – spiritual abusing systems.

Not to mention: Matt. 20:25-26; Romans 1:18; Romans 1:28-32; 2 Tim. 3:1-7; Titus 1:10-11; 1 Peter 5:3; 2 Peter 2:1-3; Jude 12, 16, 19; 3 John 9-10.

Before God ever created children; before He ever created a church, or a family, or a government, He created the marriage institution. God's divine order is the MARRIAGE FIRST, then the family.

No other intruders allowed.

In other words, neither the family nor those in the church or in the government have any say in the marriage. Those in the church and the government have no say in the family (i.e., the home). The government has no say in the church nor the family. Only the marriage is sacred. When those in “positions of leadership” in the church, or anyone else, tampers with someone's marriage... THEY ARE TREADING HOLY GROUND! Marriages are made in Heaven.

Doesn’t it anger you with a holy anger that these so-called “pastors/elders" are so eager to break up other people's marriages; BUT, they would never ever tolerate someone doing that to their marriage.

As in so many other areas, they're nothing but meddling hypocrites!

One might ask, “What are we to do when we realize and then finally see these atrocities occurring? Should we confront? Should we just leave?” The only answer is to run away; get out as fast and as far as you can and drag your family with you.

You must understand that these questions will soon become irrelevant for you because the truth of the matter is that once you finally begin to believe God's Word and live by God's Word, you will not need to come out of the Church or leave the Church.

The Church will KICK YOU OUT! Many can personally attest to this, thankfully so.

“Then if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed.” John 8:36


In abusive spiritual systems, how people act is more important than who they are or what is happening to them on the inside. Love and acceptance are earned by doing or not doing certain things. Living up to the standard is what earns acceptance, the result of which is acceptance of behaviors, not people. For many reasons, church members sometimes obey or follow orders to avoid being shamed, to gain someone’s approval, or to keep their spiritual status or church position intact.

This is not true obedience or submission; it is compliant self-seeking. When behavior is simply legislated from the outside, instead of coming from a heart that loves God, it cannot be called obedience. It is merely weak compliance with some external pressure. This system does not foster holiness or obedience to God. It merely accommodates the “leaders” sick interpretation of spirituality and their need for control.


Man's religion breeds every kind of wickedness; false witness abounds and gossip, slander and tale bearing is so common in authoritarian, abusive churches that no one thinks it is wrong. The Bible clearly condemns this practice: Leviticus 19:16, Proverbs 11:9, 11:13, 16:28, 20:19, Jeremiah 6:28, 9:4, Romans 1:29, 2 Corinthians 12:20, 1 Timothy 3:11, 5:13, 2 Timothy 3:3, Titus 2:3.

Yet, “church leaders” in authoritarian - abusive church systems seldom apply this to themselves. They somehow feel that they are “exempt” from having to avoid these evils. Within the context of “counseling,” many times the sins and failings of other individuals are frequently mentioned, as object lessons. Many times, they become the brunt of slander and gossip. At other times, even family members are sometimes asked to write down and submit information about the sins of those being counseled. This information becomes part of the “member's personal file” that may later be used to remind him or her of past sin, to gain control and/or to manipulate the member.

Oh yes. Haven’t you ever heard the analogy that is often used? “A medical doctor keeps files and records of your visits; records all of your ailments and statistics to use in aiding his/her understanding of your situation.” So therefore, it’s OK for the church leader to keep a file of all your faults and sins that have been confessed to him at counseling sessions, and then if necessary, use them against you! Among other things, what this sick behavior does is promote other church members to engage in this same gossiping and slandering sickness as well.

Despite many years of faithful service, in authoritarian - abusive church systems, malicious and slanderous information will often be communicated about recently dismissed members; and in some cases, not too-recently dismissed. False accusations, explicit and implicit, vilify them as false brothers, Judas’, demonized, God-haters, accused of treason, rebellion. Many church members within these systems uncritically accept these judgments about their former members assuming that the leadership would never slander.

This sin is obvious to the victims, but not commonly known among members since the slander, when coupled with shunning, serves to conceal the leadership's sin by "protecting" members from contrary information. In fact, in many cases, any information from ex-members is often labeled as “lies” and members are advised to respond to ex-members who initiate contact with such statements as "I am forbidden to associate with others who are not of like mind . . ." In such a church system as this, the members are easily manipulated and turned against their brothers and sisters in Christ.


In abusive spiritual systems, people’s lives are controlled from the outside in by rules, spoken and unspoken. Unspoken rules are those that govern unhealthy churches or families but are not said out loud. Because they are not said out loud, you don’t find out that they’re there until you break them.
For instance, no one at a church gathering would would ever say out loud, “You know we must never disagree with the pastor on his sermons – and if you do, you will never be trusted and never be allowed to minister in any capacity in this church.” In this case, the unspoken rule is: Do not disagree with the church authorities – especially the pastor - or your loyalty will be subject. Rules like this remain unspoken because examining them in the light of mature dialogue would instantly reveal how illogical, unhealthy and anti-Christian they are. So silence becomes the fortress wall of protection, shielding the pastor’s power position from scrutiny or challenge.


In an abusive church system, since performance has so much power, much is brought to bear in order to control it. Reaction is swift and furious toward the one who fails to perform the way the church deems fit. People have to pay for their mistakes. Responsibility and accountability are not the issues here: Fault and blame are the issues. In the New Testament, the purpose of confessing a sin is to receive forgiveness and cleansing. The shame-based church system wants a confession in order to know whom to blame – that is, whom to make feel so defective and humiliated that they won’t act that way anymore.


In abusive church systems, the members have to deny any thought, opinion or feeling that is different from those who are “in authority” at church. Anything that has the potential to shame those in authority is ignored or denied. The church member can’t find out about life through normal trial-and-error learning because mistakes shame. Interaction with people and places outside “the church” threatens the order of things. The “church” defines reality. Consequently, you can’t find out what “normal” is. Problems are denied, and thereby the remain.


In an abusive church system, it will be often said that outside the “system”, there are evil, dangerous, unspiritual people who are trying to weaken or destroy “us.” This mentality builds a strong wall or bunker around the abusive church system, isolates the abusers from scrutiny and accountability, and makes it more difficult for people to leave – because they will then be outsiders too. The result: the people are misled into thinking that the only safety is in their church system. Ironically, Jesus and Paul both warned that one of the worst dangers to the flock was from wolves in the house. Matt. 10:16; Acts 20:29-30


“Jesus called them together and said, You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. NOT SO with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant.” Matt.20:25-26 The sense of "lording it over" in this passage carries the meaning of having power over, or control of another, and it is condemned by the Lord as inappropriate for leaders in the church. In fact, the Scriptures say NOWHERE that a church leader has “authority over the congregation.”

Yet, sadly, this is the hallmark and the defining characteristic of “leaders” in an abusive church system. In many such systems, church members are expected to “seek council from their elder” on matters regardless of whether they are moral issues. So, it is not uncommon for members to go running to their elders as to whether to buy a house; planning vacations; changing jobs; raising and disciplining children; moving to another location; dating; marriage; getting a vasectomy; going to movies; how much “to tithe”; or what to do or not to do on a certain day.

Those who do not seek such “council” are labeled independent and rebellious. Great stress is placed on the need to submit to the authority of the pastor or the elders with little or no right to question, which includes following their "suggestions". To refuse to do so is to be marked as a “rebel.”

By enforcing submission to their authority in areas not clearly mandated or proscribed by Scripture, i.e. in matters of conscience, many “church leaders” are imposing legalism, and are usurping the place of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. The consequence of this is that the members fall into an uncritical acceptance of whatever the leader says, in some cases violating their own conscience, and they gradually lose the ability to hear from God, or to decide for themselves, based on the clear meaning of Scripture.


One of the many trademarks of the Pharisees was that they "love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogue; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.” Matthew 23

Another way to spot an abusive church system is when the “leaders” require the place of honor.
The less secure a leader is, the more important titles will be to him. The Pharisees had very little internal substance. All they had was the external polish. Clean but empty cups. When that is the case, it is very important that others notice the polished performance, since it is the sole source of value. Maybe to some, the removal of recognition sounds disrespectful. The true issue is not whether you choose to use a title or not. The true issue is whether you need it – whether you have to have it. The Pharisees required it, and Jesus pointed out that this is one mark of a false spiritual leader.

In all too many abusive church systems, the need to address your “church leaders” with their “proper titles” is very common; and failing to do so will absolutely NOT BE TOLERATED!


In authoritarian – abusive church systems, it is not uncommon to hear other evangelical fellowships/ministries denounced from the pulpit, while there is boasting about their own ministries. Generally, the criticism is leveled at others whose theological views are somewhat within the mainstream theologically but with whom the church system differs. Those holding differing views are sometimes described in pejorative terms, e.g., "stupid"; or “a juggernaut.” PRIDE is at the heart of this spiritual elitism that believes that they only are the few, perhaps the only local church that preaches the Gospel in purity.


In abusive church systems, many times it will be emphasized the importance of soliciting and receiving godly correction (and rightly so), yet the “pastor/elder” himself often responds in a haughty, contemptuous, and abusive manner when questioned or when attempts are made to bring correction to him. Those who bring forward an issue or concern are often accused of being the problem, and charged with pride, arrogance, and a wicked spirit.


Many authoritarian – abusive church systems greatly abuse the discipline of excommunication. In many cases, but certainly not all, the sole act of leaving the church can trigger the discipline of excommunication, although the reasons given are usually something else. In some cases, people have been publicly excommunicated from abusive church systems, after having left the church, without any warnings, and without even receiving a letter of excommunication.

Not only that, the “leaders” in these types of systems encourages the practice of shunning persons who leave the church, cutting off all social, and, as a result, business and family contact with such persons, a practice that is unique to cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses or highly isolated groups like the Amish.

Jesus said that the unrepentant believer, after two warnings, is to be treated as "a gentile or tax collector". Treating someone as "a gentile or a tax collector", means not to relate to them as you would a brother. It does not mean to cut off all social contact, for Jesus himself interacted with gentiles, including tax collectors. In all too many authoritarian – abusive church systems, the purpose of excommunication and shunning has little to do with the Biblical goal of restoration.

Clearly the intention is to keep those who have left from sharing their reasons for leaving with those in the church.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 20, 2008 03:36AM

Covering Theology has been mentioned in this thread. It appears based on comments in the SOMANW promo video the "Covering" is being taught in some form and setting at TPCWOC. If you have sat under the teaching of covering, if you consider yourself to be "under the covering" of your Apostle/Pastor then I ask you to consider the following comments. Are you fearful of thinking critically? Have you ever wondered about a teaching but were afraid to ask questions for fear of being ridiculed or worse? Have you ever considered leaving your church but were afraid that in doing so you would be "outside the covering" of your pastor and lose your salvation? Please read on...

The "Covering" Heresy

Steve Wetzel


If you are reading this article, you should be aware of the Flip Benham, Troy Newman, Randall Terry controversy. I have had difficulty identifying the root cause of the Benham attacks on Newman. Even finding the right grouping of words to identify it was hard to do. Is it spiritual authority or servant leadership or spiritual abuse - or even a cult? Finally, I searched the words “Covering Theology” - and found it.

John Bevere released a book called, ‘Under Cover’ stressing the importance of covering in the life of an individual believer. This is not a biblical teaching. We are to submit to authorities, both inside the Church and in the world, as long as what they ask us to do is not in conflict with God’s commands (1 John 2:1, 5:2). We are to obey the laws of the land (1 Pet. 2:13-16) “but as the servants of God” (1 Peter. 2:16). We are to submit to the authorities in the Church (Heb. 13:17), but they are also not to lord it over people (Mark 10:42-45), and we are to be Bereans (Acts. 17:11) and test what they teach (1 Thess. 5:21, 1 John 4:1, 1 Cor. 10:15), and reject them if they are heretics (Titus 3:10).

Here are three reviews/ warnings of the book Under Cover (the reviewers are not named, so credit cannot be given):

Again, Bevere is brainwashing Christians into not testing leadership in the churches so that false apostles, prophets and teachers may gain control of people and their money. This is a hallmark teaching of Third Wave heretics.

The message of this book is a very dangerous message for Christians. It promotes a very unhealthy view of how a believer is to submit to authority in the church. Very little actual Biblical support is used to support this message. Instead, John Bevere uses many personal experiences to build his support for the message of Under Cover. These examples have an emotional pull to them and can be very convincing to individuals. However, there is a great danger in this message. As believers, our covering is the Lord Jesus Christ. In his book, Mr. Bevere points people to look at their pastor as their covering. This is serious error and has the potential to shipwreck people’s faith. My recommendation would be to not read this book, or, if you are compelled to read it, be sure to balance the message of the book with what the scripture says.

This Undercover book is nothing but heresy. I read the Bait of Satan, it was a good book. Where did this come from? Page 147 shows without a doubt this false teaching. Bevere says that God “told him” that He (God) never intended for His people to get all they needed from His Word. And that we must have pastors tell us what to do. The veil was torn in two when Christ died on the cross, and we are not in the Old Testament where we have to have a priest go into the temple for us. We can all come boldly to the throne of Christ. Nowhere in the New Testament do pastors have any more authority than anyone else. … But in Americanized Christianity, the “pastor” has been put on a throne that the Word does not establish. Pastor means shepherd, and maybe John Bevere and others who hold pastors as little gods should read in Jeremiah and Isaiah what God said about shepherds who lead His people in to false teachings. Sadly, the people who followed the false shepherds were themselves destroyed. God did not spare them from their ignorance. We are all responsible for our own salvation, with fear and trembling. As a Pentecostal person, I am very disappointed with this book. It is heresy.

As with anything, a kernel of truth can be taken and reshaped and twisted so that it does not even resemble the original truth it was supposed to convey. Instead of the man being the head the woman, and Christ being the head of the man - the pastor has been injected between the man and Christ. Access to Christ is denied, and His role as Mediator now falls to a man - this case - his pastor. It is the bastardization of what a covering is supposed to be in God's Word.

Flip Benham is a follower of this "covering" theology. Mr. Newman (and others) ran afoul of Benham because they rejected his supposed "covering" authority over them. If one rejects this supposed covering, you become anathema and an unbeliever. (This will vary depending on the ego and angst of the coverer.) You are viewed as worse than a heathen, and subjected to attacks. This is at the core of the Benham attacks on Troy Newman.

There is nothing new about Covering Theology. It is simply pride, power grabbing, and personal kingdom building - all rolled into one. The only thing that changes is the flavor. It just morphs into different shades so the Christian gullible will say, "Wow - that is new and exciting!"
Saints - nothing ever changes. Everything remains the same except the skin it wears. Child sacrifice became pro-choice. Personal kingdom building has become our modern day "covering." Sin is sin, regardless of its title or the skin that it wears.

Beware of this heresy. Bad theology begets bad behavior.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 20, 2008 03:43AM

For more on "Spiritual Covering" please see the following website: []

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 20, 2008 04:02AM

Friends at TPCWOC have you heard of the teachings called "Covenant Relationships"? Have you practiced these teachings? Are you yourself in a "covenant relationship"?

Then you will want to hear how these teachings have been twisted and perverted. Please read the article at this website: []

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 20, 2008 04:12AM

More in Covenant Relationships:

The Curse of Unauthorized Covenants
By Steven Lambert, ThD
One of the last books Derek Prince authored prior to his recent death was Blessings and Curses (Revised version, 2003; Chosen Books, Grand Rapids Michigan). [Click on title or graphic link on left to order.]

It has been well-documented how that in the 1970s Prince had been one of the originators of what became known as the Discipleship or Shepherding Movement. To his credit, however, when the doctrines associated with that movement were challenged by numerous prominent church leaders, the highly-respected Bible teacher was the first to publicly acknowledge that the teachings were erroneous, recant them, repent, and ask fellow believers for forgiveness from the spiritual harm he had been instrumental in wreaking upon the Body of Christ.

In Blessings and Curses (p. 46) [emphasis and bracketed comments added], Prince writes:

In Exodus 23:32-33 God warned Israel about the idolatrous nations whose land they were about to enter: "Do not make a COVENANT with them or with their gods...The worship of their gods will CERTAINLY be a SNARE to YOU." If you make a solemn agreement with people who are under the power of evil forces, you come under that same power.... As Christians, we are all in a covenant relationship with the Lord and the ONLY other valid covenant is that of marriage between a husband and wife. Covenants are very powerful, and to enter into a covenant relationship on any other basis but these can be extremely dangerous. If it is a scriptural covenant [which the author states are only those between a believer and the Lord, and between a husband and wife], its effect will be a blessing. But, if it is unscriptural, its effect will be a CURSE. Solomon offers an urgent word of counsel in Proverbs 6:4-5 to anyone who has made a pledge or vow binding them to an evil ASSOCIATION:
Allow no sleep to your eyes,
No slumber to your eyelids.
Free yourself, like a gazelle from the hand of the hunter,
Like a bird from the snare of the fowler.
What you have said with your own lips [unscriptural/unauthorized pledges, oaths, covenants] only YOU can unsay. At the same time, get rid of any articles associated with the ungodly covenant. It is best to do this in the presence of Christian witnesses who can support you with their faith.
It is clear in Scripture that human covenants, pledges, and oaths other than the only two that are authorized by Scripture (marriage and God's with believers) subject the participating parties to curses that bear the potential for great harm and grave danger.

Contrary to the adage quoted even by occultists, Jesus did not teach that the truth itself will automatically set you free. Rather, He taught that it was the truth that we KNOW — the truth that lives (abides) in us and that we live in — that will set us free (cf, John 8:31,32). Indeed, the Word of God is literally filled with Kingdom Truths that bear unfettered power to liberate all who will accept and apply them to their lives, yet that glorious result cannot occur until we first KNOW those Truths. It is incumbent upon every believer who comes into this knowledge and understanding regarding illegitimate covenants to immediately repent and renounce every such improper covenant, and replace it with a confession of the two appropriate covenants, in order to "free yourself" from the "hand of the hunter" and "the snare of the fowler" — for improper covenants make us captives to the hunter and make our lives ensnared by the fowler, (Satan) who has the authority to fowl everything in our lives that is unprotected as the result of our removing ourselves from the protective covering of God through improper spiritual covenants and associations made with humans, which produce enslavement (Rom. 6:16).

Ungodly human covenants of improper submission to men, as postulated by the erroneous Shepherding doctrines, have brought the State of Florida under a curse — from the Southeast coast to the Northeast extremities of the panhandle. Let every preacher and believer first "free" his or her self from these covenants of enslavement and the curses they bring upon the participants, then preach, proclaim, and declare the message of freedom and liberty to fellow believers, and thereby deliver ourselves and the church of Florida that Jesus is building from the scourge of the curse!

When the scourge of this self-imposed curse is finally removed, we will begin to see God's hand of favor and approval released upon the church of Florida, and the fulfillment of the many prophesies predicting an unprecedented outpouring of the Spirit and God's Glory upon the coastlines of the State![end]


The following is an excerpted section from Chapter Two, The Movement Goes Underground, from my book, Charismatic Captivation, first published in 1996, which proffered back then more warnings concerning the dangers of unauthorized and unscriptural "covenant relationships," and traces the roots of the concept to the Discpleship/Sheperding controversy that emerged in the mid-1970s.

However, what has transpired over the course of time is that in order to avoid the adverse effects of controversy, the majority of Discipleship proponents and practitioners have gone "underground," so to speak, employing less overt and less conspicuous methods and means of propagation, cloaking and camouflaging their operations behind more subtle and euphemistic, cryptic language.

For example, the extreme concepts initially referred to as concepts of "pastoring" are now termed "shepherding" principles. To give it a more sophisticated and sanctimonious ring, the obsequious relationship between the subjugated (the sheep) and their subjugator (the shepherd) now is called "covenant relationships." These "relationships" (if you accept that appellation) in many groups espousing Discipleship/Shepherdship/Covenant doctrines and employing variations of the practices advocated under that teaching are actually codified in the form of a "Covenant Agreement" signed by the subjugated in which the subjugated pledges his eternal oath of allegiance and unquestioned obedience and obeisance, along with his financial support, of course, to his "shepherd."

Usually, this "covenant" requirement is a matter which is not addressed openly in the public meetings, but is introduced "in private" to attendees who have been around long enough to have become fully indoctrinated with the group's ways and teachings, and to have become psychologically dependent on the group (more on this and other psychological mechanisms employed by Discipleship groups later).

Allow me to say in passing that to me, oaths such as these bear little dissimilarity to the secret oaths and pledges required of initiates into secret societies such as the Free Masons, Ku Klux Klan, and the La Cosa Nostra (Italian Mafia), which essentially bind the inductee to that group for life, or in other words, "Til death do us part." In fact, it has been my experience in dealing with hundreds of people in deliverance from demonic powers that the pledge taken by inductees into these secret societies is precisely the same in terms of the spiritual impact it induces as those taken by members of Discipleship/Shepherdship/Covenant cults (as we shall discuss later, this is precisely what these groups are cults). A plethora of spirits of bondage, witchcraft, and idolatry saunter right through the door willfully opened by the person who enters into such demonic "covenants" of allegiance to men. Additionally, terribly debilitating and subversive satanic soul-ties are formed with the individuals with whom they have "covenanted." But, in actuality, the spiritual dynamic that is being instigated in the unseen spiritual realm when a person "covenants" with another human being in this manner, agreeing to subject himself to a mere human rather than unto the Lord Jesus Christ, is a pact of idolatry, because, spiritually speaking, wittingly or unwittingly, the subjectee has in essence pledged to submit his human will to his subjugator. In effect, the subjectee has just become the willing slave of his subjector, for the Spirit says, "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are SLAVES of the one whom you obey" (Rom. 6:16).

The ultimate result of such a "pax idolatrus" is that that person has in actuality made the pact, not with that leader, but with demons, for in reality there is no such a thing as an idol, but the idolatrous homage rendered unto "idols," whether they be human or inanimate is "sacrifice to demons, and not to God" (1 Cor. 10:19-22). In other words, anyone who makes a spiritual covenant with anyone other than God, covenants with demons, whether they intend to or not, for "You cannot drink the cup of (fellowship with) the Lord and the cup of (fellowship with) demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons" (Ibid, v. 21, parenthesis added by author). If you do so covenant and so partake of fellowship with idols (other gods), or demons, you "provoke the Lord to jealousy" (Ibid, v. 22). Thus, in actuality this "covenanting" business and paying homage to human leaders is tantamount to paganistic demon worship. The Bible explicitly constrains us against making such "covenants" with anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. It specifically commands, "Do not become slaves of men" (1 Cor. 7:23).


Dear Friend, if the Holy Spirit is convicting you of ungodly human covenants of improper submission to men such as what are addressed in this word, I urge you to "Allow no sleep to your eyes, no slumber to your eyelids" until you "FREE YOURSELF, like a gazelle from the hand of the hunter, like a bird from the snare of the fowler" by renouncing all such ungodly covenants and thereby break the self-imposed bondages and curses over your life. Repeat the following simple prayer:

Dear Lord Jesus, my eyes have been opened to the error of these improper covenants I have made with men in ignorance, and sense the inner conviction of the Spirit regarding them. I ask you to forgive me of my sin and error. I want to FREE MYSELF from the witchcraft resulting from those false oaths, pledges, and covenants right now. So, in the Name of Jesus Christ, the Name above every name, I now renounce those covenants I made and demand by the Spirit of the Lord that the illegitimate yoke of slavery that has been upon me now lift off of me! I am now free of all false burdens and responsibilities, and free to serve YOU as my Lord. Thank you, Jesus!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 20, 2008 04:38AM

See the attached for more on Spiritual Covering. By Steve Hill at


Sometimes the line between right and wrong in doctrine and practice does not run through
the words or even the practice but through the hearts of those involved. People may blame leaders
and leaders may blame people. However, foolishness is often driven from both sides! It was the
people of Israel that demanded a king when that was not God's will for them. God wanted to be
their king! Theocracy is not rule by one man. That is a dictatorship! Theocracy is rule by God.
This is fulfilled in the New Covenant with the statement that “the head of every man is Christ”!
That is the promise of Jesus, “I will build my church!”

Sometimes the line between truth and error is visible by the emphasis. Truth is in Jesus. It
is living and dynamic. Jesus is God of God and man of very man. Logically those two things
cannot be true in the same individual at the same time but our universe is not rationally determined.
It is relationally structured. Truth is a person! Jesus is both Son of God and Son of Man. We must
hold both at the same time to remain true to who He is. If we let go of either truth we end up in the
ditch on the other side of the road. To remain in the way to God we must hold both to be equally,
absolutely, totally true at the same time! Our minds must worship. They cannot understand, ie,
control this! If my mind could do so, it would be God. My mind must worship the mystery of the
Son of God who is the Son of Man! All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in
Christ (Colossians 2:3)!

Take the example of “spiritual fatherhood” or “ministry father”. There is truth in tension
here! Let us see what happens if we emphasize one side over the other. If I mention Moses and
Joshua, Elijah and Elisha as well as Paul and Timothy, what do you think of? What would you
teach? Most would teach the necessity of having a spiritual father or a spiritual mentor. And that
would be half of the truth. However, neither Moses nor Elijah nor Paul had a spiritual father! Paul
even uses that fact as part of the authentication of his message and apostleship! True! Read
Galatians 1:15- 24! That is the other side of the truth.

Why would the necessity of a spiritual father be taught from these examples and not the
other side? What would be the motivation of the heart? If I have a need to be in control and to
have people submit to me, I would emphasize the need for a spiritual father. If I am a rebel and
want to justify my independence I will teach that we do not need to submit to anyone other than

However, if I do not have an agenda, I will teach both sides. 'The head of every man is
Christ', Paul declared to the Corinthians in I Corinthians 11:3. And yet in the same book (I
Corinthians 4:14) Paul admonishes the Corinthians as his “beloved children”. Truth is living and
always in tension! The “head of every man is Christ” and “submit yourselves to one another in the
fear of God” are both true at the same time!

Our aim is to be direct. Some may say we are too direct. Being “nice” was never one of my
goals in life and being past fifty years old, I am not about to adopt that as a new goal. “Nice” is not
a fruit of the Spirit! And in being direct I have Paul as a mentor! In Galatians he asks those
promoting circumcision to “go all the way and castrate themselves” (Galatians 5:12, The Message)!
He is powerfully sarcastic when speaking to the Corinthians about their relationships with false
apostles! Read II Corinthians 11 in the Message or the Amplified versions!


I Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.”
The reformation was fought on that one! Do you need a “priest” between you and God to
mediate God for you? Doctrinally most present day Christians would say a resounding “No!” to
that question.

Why then do they allow themselves to be involved in a practice of that teaching? Why do
they think they need to be submitted to a leader to be spiritually protected? Where does that come
from? This comes from the Roman teaching that salvation is only possible if you are a part of the
Roman institution and submitted to a priest.

The acceptance of this dogma by charismatic Christians is driven from both sides. The
people do not want to take full responsibility for their relationship with Jesus and trust only Him for
their spiritual security so they put another man in that place. The leaders find this dogma very
useful for keeping people in their place, ie, in their ministry. In psycho babble this is called a
codependent relationship!

If Jesus is your head what more spiritual protection do you need? Take your responsibility
to be in Christ!

I John 2:24- 28,
“But the anointing which you have received from him abides in you and you do not
need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things and
is true and is not a lie and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.”

John 16:13
“However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;”
In Christ, by the anointing, we are taught the truth. John says that this is the antidote to
those who try to deceive. Yes, we have teachers but we have the Holy Spirit and the promise of
Jesus that He will guide us into all truth.
Again codependent relationships are driven from both sides. One side needs to be needed
and the other side does not want to take responsibility to hear God for themselves.
Your protection from spiritual deception is in the Christ and His anointing. Jesus declared
that His sheep hear His voice (John 10:4)! That is your responsibility and your freedom!

I Peter 2:4- 10
“a holy priesthood”, “a royal priesthood”, “to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to
God through Jesus Christ”
Our spiritual sacrifices are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ and not through any other
man! We are all “holy” and “royal” priests. There are no first or second class priests. Only one

Why would anyone diminish the doctrine of Christ to let anyone else on the planet take any
of His function over your life?

Peter goes on through the rest of chapter two and then through to chapter five talking about
how we are to relate to each other as royal priests. He talks about submission to civil authorities
and to authorities in the work place, even if what they ask may be unjust. He talks about wives
submitting to husbands and husbands to wives “so that their prayers would not be hindered”! His
conclusion to this section is in verse 8 of chapter 3, “Finally, all of you be of one mind having
compassion for one another, love as brothers...”

The rest of chapter 3 and 4 talk about submitting to circumstances where we may suffer due
to the fact that we are a Christian. Chapter 5 talks of relationship to spiritual authority. The leaders
are commanded to serve without being “lords over those entrusted” to them. The younger are
exhorted to submit to the elders but all are commanded to “be submissive to one another and be
clothed with humility.”

When someone asks, “Who are you submitted to?” it is often a loaded question! They have
their “covering” and they think less of others who do not! My answer to such a person is, “I am
submitted to you!” What an answer! What a reality! Thank you Robert Fitts for that insight!
(From a book soon to be published, “Forty Trends...” ).

Hierarchical submission is not New Testament. There is one Master who is Jesus and we
are all brothers. Hierarchical submission is an invention of the Roman/Pagan system. It came in
when a pagan priesthood was imposed upon the people of God.

Religion is special people (priests), in a special place (temple), at a special time (religious
times and days), doing special things (rituals) for the people which they are not allowed to do for
themselves. This creates the power of the priesthood and saves the people from responsibility.
That is the “bargain” of religion. You give me your freedom (and your money) and I will remove
any sense of responsibility for your life or guilt for your sin. You will enjoy a life free of moral
responsibility. Just belong to the institution. You will also go to hell since you do not know Jesus!
But who said it was a good bargain!

This religious spirit is the same spirit which slaughtered multitudes who simply wanted to
read the bible for themselves.
How much of this spiritual elitism has crept into the charismatic church?

Psalm 27
“The Lord is my light and my salvation; Who shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of
my life; Of whom shall I be afraid?”
Psalm 140:7
“Oh God the Lord, the strength of my salvation, You have covered my head in the day
of battle.”

One should know that spiritual covering dogma is wrong simply because it is based in fear.
This dogma says that your life is not spiritually protected, ie, that you are open for demonic
influence and attack in your life if you are not submitted to someone over you in the religious
pecking order.

The kingdom of God is energized by faith working through love. If I truly love people my
responsibility as a leader is to press their face into Jesus. Or as Paul said in II Corinthians 11:2,
“present you as a chaste virgin to Christ”. That is our job! Apostles and prophets are to be
foundational. Foundations are hidden. They hold up the rest of the building and push it into the
sky. They are not the covering!

The kingdom of darkness is energized by fear working through hatred. If I have a
motivation to control people, I fundamentally despise them. People were made for God. People
were made for freedom. My motivation for sowing fear to control and to put myself in a place as a
“covering” is really a fundamental hatred of people. I view them as something to be used to benefit
my ministry, to run my programs, to serve my vision and generally, to be kept in their place for my

Psalm 105:39, Isaiah 4:5:
“For over all the glory will be there for a covering.”

This was the picture as God took the children of Israel out of Egypt. The cloud by day and
the fire by night were their covering. His glory, His presence was their covering.
This is the picture as God creates over “every dwelling place of Mount Zion” the cloud by
day and the fire by night of the covering of His glory.

Who is your covering? The glorious, eternal, almighty God Himself! His presence in cloud
and fire. His glory manifested over my life. This is my Father's world! I dwell in His presence!
If you look to a man to do what God has reserved for himself to do, you will experience
increasing fear. You will become more and more dependent upon that man and that ministry. You
will more and more deny the doctrine of Christ! You will move more and more into a cult.

Matthew 23:8- 12:
“Do not call anyone on earth your father for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.”

In Matthew 23 Jesus is speaking “Woe” after “Woe” over the religious leaders of His day.
His instruction to His disciples is very simple- do not call yourselves “Rabbi”, “teacher” or “father”
like they do for you have one Father, the Heavenly Father and you have one Teacher, the Christ.
And besides, “You are all brethren.”

It does not get any simpler than that. However, we are so used to religious usage of these
terms and we are so used to the denial of responsibility that we accept and use these terms for our
selves and our brothers. Jesus commanded us not to do this!
What about “do not call anyone on earth your father” do you not understand?

II Corinthians 1:24
“Not that we have dominion over your faith but are fellow workers for your joy; for by
faith you stand.”

Was Paul over the Corinthians in the Lord? Yes, he made an appeal to them as a father. But
he is very clear that if he took a place of dominion, of covering, he would no longer be helping
them to stand. He would be precipitating their fall.

Matthew 8:5:13, “I also am a man under authority”

The centurion recognized that Jesus was a man under authority, like himself, and therefore
had authority. Correct observation. The centurion was under Caesar and Jesus was under God.
However, when many preach this they make a wrong application. They preach, that if you
want to have authority, you must submit to a hierarchical structure, submit to me! Well, true
enough, if you want to have authority from them in their structure.

But Jesus was not in any structure. He had authority because of His submission to God and
that is the proper application of the scripture. That is the application used in Acts 4:19- they refused
to submit to the Jewish council and remained faithful in their submission to God. The authority of
God comes from submission to God. It does not come from submission to any man.

Psalm 91:1, “He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the
shadow of the Almighty.”
Some teach that the “shadow of the Almighty” is delegated authority and make the claim
that the protection promised in the Psalm has to do with submission to such delegated authority.
However, Psalm 91 is one of the most powerful statements in all of the scripture of our
protection because we are in God! Read it! Believe it! Enjoy it! Do not let anyone reduce the
revelation of this Psalm!

There are no scriptures that speak about this. None. No where. Not in the Old Testament
and not in the New Testament. Not there!

What are the New Testament prayers about in the face of spiritual attack? They are prayers
for boldness! See Acts 4:24- 31 and Ephesians 6:18- 20!

What are the New Testament prayers about in general? They are about revelation of who
we are in Christ! That is the issue!

See Ephesians 1:15- 23! Why would you look to any man for protection and covering if you
had any revelation at all of where you are in Christ above all principalities and powers?
What about Ephesians 3:14- 21? We do not need a man, we need revelation of the “power
that works in us” that can do “exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think”!
Check out Philippians 1:3- 11! The prayer is that our “love may abound still more and
more in knowledge and all discernment”. We need to know who we are and what we have in

Same story in Colossians 1:9- 11 and in I Thessalonians 3:11- 13 and in Philemon 1:4- 6.
Prayer does not get answered and prayer is not effective by a multiplier of people praying.
Do you get those emails requesting you to send on the mail so that they will get one million people
praying so that when they get the million praying the child will be healed from the cancer? That is
not biblical faith or prayer! James tells us that “The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man
avails much.” One righteous man is all that is required. One man in right relationship with God!
I am not more protected the more people that are praying for me. Where is that in the bible?
The issue is whether or not I am in Christ and boldly obedient to Him no matter what my
circumstances. The battle is a battle of faith- am I in Christ or do I believe my circumstances?

Yes, yes, yes, I know that many use the term “spiritual covering” and they do not mean any
Roman/Pagan Dogma. They mean right relationship with the body of Christ, with close friends that
they love and are open to hear correction from. Yes and yes, again.

We need relationships which allow us to “speak the truth to one another in love” or we will
not mature as Paul says in Ephesians 4:15. Submission is an attitude of the heart not a place in an
hierarchical structure. In almost every place in scripture where submission to different authority
structures is instructed you will also find the sweeping instruction to “submit to one another”. The
brotherhood reality of the royal priesthood is never absent. We desperately need that reality!
However, the power hungry and ambitious will submit to the hierarchy simply because that
is the way to power. They will submit to those over them but will not receive from anyone
“beneath” them. They are experts in “proper order” but lack the heart of humility. They will do the
hierarchy thing but will not do the “one another” thing! They depend heavily upon Old Testament
example and terminology such as “the Man of God” complex (that is another story!) but lack
insight into the New Testament reality of “all one in Christ” (Galatians 3:28).

This gets even more foolish when one of these leaders “submits” themselves to another
leader who lives thousands of kilometres away from them. And then uses that “submission” as part
of his presentation to his people, “I am a submitted man. I am under authority.” Implication?
“You must submit to me!”

Submission to someone across the world? What does that mean? Do they see how you
live? And then no submission to the brothers close at hand because they are lower in the order!
That is not a heart of humility. That is a heart of pride!

“Pride of life” or pride of position and place, is number one in the satanic trinity. Number
two is “lust of the eyes” or materialism and wealth. Number three is the “lust of the flesh”. John
Wimber called these three “the glory, the gold and the girls”!

Command and control structures are focused upon position, place, hierarchies and call that
“proper order”. When loyalty to the structure, institution or a man takes a higher place than
loyalty to the truth we have entered into the ethics of the mafia. Loyalty has a higher value than
truth. This is the basic characteristic of a cult. All cults are ultimately concerned with power,
money and sex.

Graham Cook says, “I have seen many eunuchs in the house of the Lord and very few
fruitful sons” (A Divine Confrontation, page 99). Yes, amen! Men who are faithful to the meetings
and to the programs! Men who are submitted. But men who have no faith to do anything for God!
Some of the most faithful people have the least faith!
I have seen men who are totally loyal to a certain “spiritual house” to the point of disloyalty
to the house which Jesus is building. The dogma of spiritual covering is part of the spiritual
technology used to create such deception and to create eunuchs.
Jesus taught that we are all brothers.

Paul, Peter, John and James talked a lot about “one another” stuff. How do we do that?
Have you ever made a list of all the “one another” scriptures? That is a study!
Better yet- how do we do that?

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: M&M ()
Date: October 23, 2008 11:29AM

I would like to tell my story in this thread.

I suspect that it may be disappointing in some respects because I do not believe that Turning Point has reached the level that RLC has in regards to being destructive.

I have personally seen much good fruit come from Turning Point. We have seen kids get free of drug abuse and other destructive lifestyles. These kids have been in my home.

When my wife and I left TP no one avoided us. No one, as for as I know, was told not to associate with us. One of my daughter in laws was led to Christ through TP. Though there are concerns I have I would not place a black cloud over TP.

Most importantly, I believe Mike and Cyndi going on Sabbatical may in fact lead the church into a much healthier balanced position. This to me would be one of the most exciting things that could possibly happen.

My wife and I were part of the church from 2001 to 2006. We were heavily involved in everything from teaching Sunday School to writing in the church newsletter, to leading small groups, and being part of what used to be called church in the park. Writing for the newsletter I personally interviewed many people whose lives were radically touched through the ministry of Turning Point.

I have been in Pastor Mike's house. I have taught his kids in Sunday School. They have been to our house. I would without hesitation say that Mike and Cyndi are genuine people of God. We have also had the joy and priviledge of being at the houses and having in our home many of the staff and leaders at TP. I can also add that TP has done much to unite with other churches.

All of that is true. Anything I am about to say in no way detracts from what is written above.

Turning Point over the last 3 years that I attended gradually evolved into an authoritarian church. They cut ties with the Church of God denomination. Pastor Mike received prophesies that he is an apostle. They embrace the 5 fold ministry model.

As an apostle without any real accountability they have moved almost unconsciously toward an increasingly authoritarian culture. In my personal experience Mike carried himself with an authoritarian air continuously. At least in all the time I spent with him the condition of interaction was that he was the teacher and you were the student. He was not comfortable with flexible relationships moving from one role to another.

An example to illustrate the way a culture becomes authoritarian and then as a consequence becomes insular is the video's the church has put on YOUTUBE. Pastor Mike did a little video showing him visiting his youngest son's school.

Someone did a parody of it. When I watched the parody it was almost physically painful. Whoever did it was probably a non-Christian. What he spoofed was how self righteous and self exalting Mike came across. Ideally someone should have told Mike how weird the little video was. The truth is in all that I saw of them Mike and Cyndi are excellent parents, they genuinely love their kids. But in the real world unlike at TP you can't carry on like you are God's gift to parenting or God's gift to marriage, or God's gift to everything. Because Mike and Cyndi have set themselves up as the authorities and people are very reluctant within the church to speak to them, someone outside the church ends up cruelly mocking them. This is just one obvious example of how the church has become insular.

If anyone is interested in more of my experiences and thoughts please let me know. If you think I am being unfair please let me know. I love the people at TP including Mike and Cyndi. I do not think it is too late to develope a healthy church environment.

Options: ReplyQuote
Current Page: 1 of 351

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.