pss quote: So what Christ did on the cross was receive the sins of the world on himself so that he who knew no sin WAS MADE to be SIN for us.

Truthtesty: This being all spiritual tell me why the theophany of the Angel of Jehovah could not have accomplished this.

Truthtesty: (Also, there is no "Right Pastor". This is not a US military battalion. There is no "Pastor teacher" who can give a good account for you to the commanding general.)

Pss: Hebrews 13:17.

Truthtesty: Hebrews 13:17 "them" it is plural not singular. Look that up in greek. Thieme's singular "right pastor" doctrine is a cult doctrine based on Thieme's narcissistic ego.

1 Peter 5:1-4

1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Thieme is/was confused or intentionally pretentious about the authority structure or the "authority flow" in Christianity. Christianity is not a gentile authority structure. Jesus was/is the highest authority, yet he submitted His Life and His Blood for all christians.

Ephesians 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." Thieme should have submitted to you. He was just a christian (if he was) with a gift (if he had a gift) which wasn't a gift to Thieme personally, but a gift to the body of Christ. One member of many equal members with spiritual gifts.


Truthtesty

pss: The pre-canon top Athorities of Apostles could teach Pastors like Timothy and Titus and their congregations in the Roman Empire like Ephesis and Corinth. Also Pastors could go to other congregations and teach as Titus helped Timothy. The top athorities in the post-canon period of the Church age is the Pastor-teacher and he has authority over his own congregation and not over several, referring to those under the athority of another Pastor. He has certain duties with reguards to ordination of those with the PT gift but those with the gift have to get trained and develop their own ministry and congregatios.


Truthtesty: This appears to be complete hogwash. Prove it.


psss qoute: The top athorities in the post-canon period of the Church age is the Pastor-teacher and he has authority over his own congregation and not over several

Truthtesty: Oh really? This is sicko mumbo jumbo. Thieme was treated like a rock star when he visited different towns and the local pastor was shoved aside. Thieme had full "authority". Typical pagan worship.


Truthtesty

ps quote: So what Christ did on the cross was receive the sins of the world on himself so that he who knew no sin WAS MADE to be SIN for us. Then God the Father seperated from him so that he died spiritually i.e. seperated himself from Christ who was made sin for us. That is called the Blood of Christ. This is my understanding that I agree with from my studies.


Truthtesty: Prove it. I doubt this is from your personal study. That's what Thieme taught. How intresting is it that you agree with your own understanding. Do you often diasagree with your own understanding? Rather I think it is Freudian slip and it's actually Thieme's studies your understanding and agreeing with. In any case, show us the specific verse that says the literal Shed Blood of Jesus does not include the literal Shed Blood. There isn't one. Show us the specific verse that says that the Blood of Christ is only Jesus' spiritual death. There isn't one.

pss quote: So what Christ did on the cross was receive the sins of the world on himself so that he who knew no sin WAS MADE to be SIN for us.

Truthtesty: This being all spiritual (in Thieme's opinion and your parroted opining) tell me why the theophany of the Angel of Jehovah could not have accomplished this. As I have already stated:
^{You missed my point as well. If spiritual death of a perfect theantropic person was all that was necessary then the Angel of Jehovah could have spiritually died for our sins. Satan was an angel, proof therefore an angel can sin. All that is necessary for a "sin nature" is a choice to disobey God. If all that was necessary was spiritual death then the perfect "angel side" of the theantropic Angel of Jehovah could have been "made sin" for us, just as the "human side" of the theantropic Jesus was "made sin" for us. Therefore the God-angel could have been made sin for us. The God-angel with no old sin nature and never sinned personally. Therefore Flesh and Blood were an obvious requirement for salvation, not just spiritual death alone.}

ps quote Then God the Father seperated from him so that he died spiritually i.e. seperated himself from Christ who was made sin for us. That is called the Blood of Christ.

Truthtesty: Prove it. You can't. Show me from your own personal studies. You don't even know the exact details of spiritual death. No one does. How is it that God was in Jesus yet separted from Jesus? No one knows.

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer: The Son cries, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Ps. 22:1; Matt. 27:46), yet it is affirmed that it was the very God to whom He cried that was, at that precise moment, “in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself” (2 Cor. 5:19). To finite minds all this is paradoxical, yet it serves to emphasize anew the deeper truth that, though there are three Persons in the Godhead, there is but one essence.

These are God's processes and we are limited by what is revealed. God meant for the literal Blood to be Shed and it was. God needed to see this Blood as a part of God's process. This Blood was of the God/man. A Blood which could live forever. An eternal physical Blood capable of eternal life on earth, was Shed and given up as a gift so that other's may live. And God needed to see it Shed. And it was Shed. And it is a part of the process of the physical and spiritual sufferings and death of Jesus. To deny the sacrifice of this eternal Blood it's efficacious value would be equivalent to denying any other efficacious physical or spiritual sufferings of Jesus.

There is no verse that limits or equates the Blood of Christ to "spiritual death only". This is more of Thieme's "junk theology". It is more of Thieme's personal politically motivated war on the literal Blood for votes in November.

You say you have a personal study and you say that you don't copy your master you say you have found errors in the King James, But? where have you found errors with Thieme's "junk theology"? Where have you found errors with Thieme? You and Thieme glady point out errors with other pastors But? Where are Thieme's errors? You try to indicate that you have a separate study from Thieme, But? Where has your study differed from Thieme?


Truthtesty

TT you have to remember that it's the sins of mankind that has to be atoned for so why would God come as an Angel of Jehovah. That would not make sence. The God man not the God angel had to pay for the sins of man since Adam and the Woman sinned. The second Adam a perfect man had to be judged. His humanity had to be judged. The sins of mankind had to be judged on a perfect man.

Christ died spiritually before he died physically. His spiritual death occurred when he screamed Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani My God My God why have you forsaken me.
Jesus Christ made it clear that God the Father with whom he had an unbroken relationship had to break that relationship for the 3 hours that Christ bore our sins on the cross. Since it is immposible for diety to die God the Son had to become a man in order to pay the penalty of sin, to take our place. (Mat 27:31-50; Mk 15:20-37; Lk 23:26-46; John19:25-38.)

The unity of the Faith and the gift God distributed and gave to men in God's family to carry out that function of bringing that unit. Eph:4:1-6 and 7-11.

Pastors will have to give an account. Greek= APODIDOMI is the root word for APODUSONTES which is in the Nomnative. plural Future active participle, Meaning to render a due, to give an answer to a claim or expectation, and with it's grammtical construction meaning now and in the future at the judgement seat of Christ.

Logon is the accusative sing of Lego which means to say, to speak, make an address or speech, to tell, declare or narrate or affirm. Hebrews 13:17

So TT with the Exegesis being taught to you maybe you can learn new and important things also.


Some of my Christian teachers I've learned from through Book, TV or Radio or in person have been Dr J Vernon McGee, Billy Graham, Hilton Sutton, Clarence Larkin, D L Moody, C I Scofield D.D., Rev Joseph Brown, Rev Steve Harnett, L.S. Chaffer and RBT tops the list and is Great to me.

Some reasons WHY I consider RBT to be Great to me is, I believe God has used him to help bridge the gap between the 1st century Church and it's teachings and cultural times and the stepped up attacks of Satan with his false doctrines and the doctrines that man has confused up to and in the 20th and 21st century. By bridging that Gap with the ICE teaching we are brought closer to what the 1st century church learned.

RBT's diligent study to acquire the tools to study and research then the use of those tools along with his dedication of many years of study and teaching, even his 8-16 hour periods of researching individual words in certain passages of the original languages to make sure he would be correct in his evaluations of passages is a sign of his tireless effort and dedication to be accurate and please the Lord. No Pastor or teacher is perfect and that includes all the ones I've studied under and myself as well. But we are all servants of Christ.

To me Through the use of his ICE method of teaching and evaluating the Word of God the Mystery doctrines of Christ have been made clearer to me, the road to spiritual maturity has been made more lucid and the mechanics of how to live the Christian way of life has been explained so as to be able to apply Biblical doctrines resulting in spiritual maturity being experienced in the thinking and my day to day life of any Christian who cares to follow that road and all for free without financial obligation. Many others have been benefitted.

Reaching Spiritual maturity and the accumulated wisdom by diligent study does not mean one reaches perfection. But it does mean that the application of those Biblical doctrines can be applied to every circumstance in life that the Christian faces whereby they can maintain pose and peace of mind and happiness of God and from God. Through understanding accurately God's word one is blessed and to whom much is given much is required.

Not to discredit any of the other Ministers in my life but RBT has taken me by God's grace into a closer relationship with my Lord and Savior and my God the Heavenly Father. The system of ICE teaching to me is the major reason that I have accumulated wisdom and desire to acquire more. Although learning from my own personal study and from others teachers God has kept me advancing with the help of and ministry Pastor RBThieme. Many others use the ICE teaching method also.

Definitions of cult:

Noun: a system of religious beliefs and rituals
Example: "Devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin"
Noun: adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices
Noun: an interest followed with exaggerated zeal

Why I think people call his ministry a cult is because of the knowledge and doctrines and accuracy gathered from the original languages and the thorough evaluation by means of ICE that others in the past have never gathered themselves or did not research to gather or never thought about investigating what was taught previously to them and thereby just accepting what was the norm of doctrine taught them for centuries without the benefit of ICE. These different doctrinal views are challenged by those who hold to the more traditional doctrine and do not agree with the current evaluation from ICE by applying the word "cult" to those who teach and accept those views.

I= isagogics helped bridge the gap by teaching a little more detail about the customs and culture of the people and of the periods of times the Bible and passage was written in. It takes us back into history and gives us a more vivid realization of what others experienced when they had learned and applied Bible doctrine. The Bible has to be taught with those things in consideration to acquire a more accurate understanding.

C= categories really helps with the dissolving the confusion that exist with so many Ministers teaching so many different doctrines and who have so many different views that it would be hard pressed to take a dogmatic stand on any doctrine or truth without the complete evaluation of any subject. The apostles were not confused but they spoke, thought and wrote in the original languages of scripture. Most of us today do not have that luxury of knowing the Koine Greek or the other original languages of the Bible, but if Pastors devote themselves to acquiring those tools the unity of the faith would be compressed whereby narrowing down with documentation and text what is accurate and what is false would be acquired by all believers.

E= Exegesis is the use of the original languages of scripture to study learn and teach to evaluate the doctrines of the Bible. The evaluation based on the grammar, syntax, ethamology of words and many other theological research systems are used to bring forth the Word of Truth accurately. This is the main job of a Pastor-Teacher. For this is a main key and foundation of any doctrine taught especially the mysteries of Christ.

Example: The words translated "IF" in the KJV or other English translations have 4 different Greek meanings, but all are translated using the one word "IF". Therefore unless you know which one is being used you can not end up with an accurate translation or meaning or understanding or application. Well your chances are 25%.So with a thorough evaluation of scriptures with the help of a qualified Pastor whom you trust we all can come to a unity of the Faith and doctrine in which God intended. The first century Church with all there accuracy still had false teachers and those who taught doctrine that was not sound doctrine. The water is very, very muddy today but with the ICE teaching system God's accurate truth will be learned thereby producing more mature Christians and a more unified Christian body of Christ, the Church. Winner believers who will not be ashamed at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

TT I hope this helps your unbelief or educate you as to why I like his ministry and that method of teaching.

ps quote: Confused no longer I appreciate my imperfect Pastor who's been lied on and about and whom others have pointed out his flaws but I don't believe them because the Devil is always lying on those who teach the truth so why should I believe them. Those little tricksters.


Truthtesty:

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

You are not to submit to the authority of a false teacher.

(Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol IV pg 223) (9) Warning Against False Prophets. “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matt. 7:15–20). The warning here is against false prophets who are to be discerned by the quality of their lives. The warning to the children of God under grace is against false teachers who are to be discerned by their doctrine concerning Christ (2 Pet. 2:1; 2 John 1:7–11 ): never by their lives; for outwardly, false teachers are said to appear as the “apostles of Christ,” and to be directly under the power of Satan who himself appears as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:13–15). The attractive personality of the false teacher affords great advantage as a background for the appeal he makes for his doctrine.

Keep that in mind the next time you corrupt to a Thieme tape.


Truthtesty

ps quote: "Immediadelly following Christ's physical death several miracles took place. The veil of the temple which hung between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies was an elaborately woven fabric of seventy-two twisted wrap cords, twenty threads each EX26:33. Sixty
feetlong and thirty feet wide and impossible to tear with human hands, But the moment Christ dismissed his spirit, Matt 26:51a. God himself split the veil of the Temple to indicate that the barrier between man and God was removed by the work of Christ on the Cross. We know from the study of the Tabernacle as well as from the book of Hebrews that the veil represented Christ body, His Humanity. Heb1:19-20.
The rending of the veil represented the two deaths, spiritual and physical of the Lord Jesus Christ which makes it possible for you and all believers to have a rtelationship with God in time and for all eternity". From "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" by RBT 4th edition 2004.


What? Perhaps you need a new greek lexicon. Matthew 26:51 reads And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

Another proof for "test all things".

In any case:

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. IV, Page 67 3. The Service of Intercession. As the prophet is God’s representative sent to the people, so the priest is the people’s representative dispatched to God, and since priesthood is a divine appointment, the necessary access to God is always provided; however, no priest of the old dispensation was permitted to enter the holy of holies other than the high priest, and he but once a year on the ground of sacrificial blood (Heb. 9:7). As for this dispensation, in addition to the fact that Christ as High Priest has with His own blood now entered into the heavenly sanctuary (Heb. 4:14–16; 9:24; 10:19–22) and is now interceding for His own who are in the world (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25), when Christ died, the veil of the temple was rent—which signifies that the way into the holiest is now open, not to the world, but to all who come unto God on the ground of the shed blood of Christ (Heb. 10:19–22). Having unhindered access to God on the ground of the blood of Christ, the New Testament priest is thus privileged to minister in intercession (Rom. 8:26–27; Heb. 10:19–22; 1 Tim. 2:1; Col. 4:12).

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Blood Vol. VII, Page 52

1. Sacrificial. The all-inclusive declaration on this point which sums up the Old Testament order and the New avers that “without shedding of blood is no remission” (Heb. 9:22). It is shed blood which has always been required for deliverance, and thus it was in the type and the antitype, Christ in His crucifixion. The mystery of all that enters into the required blood sacrifice for sin cannot be traced through to its end. It traverses more of unknown realms than it does this realm. The truth of God’s requiring a blood sacrifice as the righteous ground for the remission of sin was established beyond all dispute in Old Testament times. Though the many offerings sustained no efficacy in themselves to take away sin, they did speak of the immutable necessity of a ransom or redemption by blood as a cure for sin. To challenge this fact is not only to overlook the teaching set forth in the types and the New Testament’s direct explanation of Christ’s death, but it is to assume that the human valuation of sin may be equivalent to the divine evaluation. What authority, indeed, has a mortal—a mere creature—to arrogate to himself the right to sit in judgment upon God and declare unnecessary the principle which God has established and to which He at infinite cost unto Himself has conformed in all ages? The glorious message is, indeed, that efficacious blood has been shed and that men are invited to receive the value of it, that Christ’s blood was shed as a sacrifice which God Himself provided to meet His demands against sin, and that this way of dealing with sin, from Abel’s lamb to the day of Christ’s death, is the only interpretation which fully and rightly construes all that the Bible presents on this its central theme of salvation.

By Thieme falsely denying the efficacy of the literal Shed Blood of Christ, Thieme falsely arrogates and equates his valuation with God's divine evaluation.


Truthtesty

ps quote: But the moment Christ dismissed his spirit, Matt 26:51a. God himself split the veil of the Temple ... From "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" by RBT 4th edition 2004.


Truthtesty: ps you better let the "Thieme temple" know that Thieme made ANOTHER error.

Matthew 26:51 reads And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.


Truthtesty

TT Matt 27:51a

ps quote: Oh sorry TT, I thought you read the current Blood of Christ. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords is also a fantastic book. Order it for free you might learn something you never knew before. How do I know that, well unless you are a Greek scholar I know you will.


Truthtesty: You don't know that. You don't know what I know or what I will know nor the conditions of. I don't trust your judgement or Thieme's judgement after Thieme's glaring misrepresentations of the truth. You and Thieme would do well to learn from this forum.

Apparently, I have aleady corrected 1 error in Thieme's lastest quagmire "The King of Kings and Lord of Lords". Why don't you send a copy of both pamphlets to Truthtesty@hotmail.com. I will be glad to oversight and correct the errors. I only covered Thieme's false attack on the literal Shed Blood of Jesus for the 10 year period that Thieme used Ardnt and Gingrich(who did not agree with Thieme) and Kittle, from approximately 1969 - 1979.

By the way does Thieme still use Nazis Doktor Kittle and Doktor Behm (both supported Hitler), for his fallacious attack on the Shed Blood of Jesus? The same Doktor Kittle in WWII that was arrested by Allied Forces at the university he taught at? And imprisoned for 17 months as a "war criminal"? The same Doktor Kittle who previously spoken highly of the Jews, but was directly employed by Hitler himself to "find a christian reason" through the greek language to attack the Jews? (Sound familiar?) Johannes Behm also supported Hitler and the Nazi party. [www.verfolgte-schueler.org] . Emanual Hirsch (listed as Hitler's theologian see above) and Johannes Behm are associated in that german document also. [www.verfolgte-schueler.org] Doktor Paul Althaus was Althaus and Behm wrote a book together. Paul Althaus (also considered one of Hitler's Theologians) and Johannes Behm wrote a book together. "Das Neue Testament deutsch" Johannes Behm (Autor), Peter Stuhlmacher (Autor), Gerhard Friedrich (Autor), Paul Althaus (Autor). [www.amazon.de]



"This film, based upon groundbreaking research, introduces the viewer to three of the greatest Christian scholars of the twentieth century: Paul Althaus, Emanuel Hirsch, and Gerhard Kittel, men who were also outspoken supporters of Hitler and the Nazi party. In 1933 Althaus spoke of Hitler's rise as "a gift and miracle of God." Hirsch saw 1933 as a "sunrise of divine goodness." And Kittel, the editor of the standard reference work on the Jewish background of the New Testament, began working for the Nazis to find a "moral" rationale for the destruction of European Jewry."

[ssl17.chi.us.securedata.net]


Here's a phrase that thiemites need to become familiar with - "illegitimate totality transfer".

James Barr on Nazi war criminal Doktor Kittle:
Barr's reputation as one of the most influential biblical scholars and Semitists of the second half of the twentieth century rests on both the range of his interests and the incisive character of his contributions. His first book, The Semantics of Biblical Language (1961), addressed the linguistic and theological problems associated with transferring a religious tradition from one language into another. He scrutinized several widely accepted features of biblical scholarship at the time and demonstrated fundamental flaws underlying each: the notion that there was a basic difference between the Hebrew way of thinking and the Greek way of thinking; the practice of associating the history of a given word with the history of a theological concept; the use made of etymologies; and the philosophical and linguistic underpinnings of much work in "biblical theology." Drawing on principles from the fields of semantics and linguistics, Barr argued that one cannot simply assume—as he shows many have done—that the linguistic structure of a language reveals the thought structures of the people speaking that language. He was especially critical of Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, a widely used multi-volume project underway beginning in the 1930s, which Barr found to be all too often guilty of what he called an "illegitimate totality transfer," i.e. the whole range of meanings that a word could have in its various semantic contexts is thought to be present in each individual case. According to Barr, it is much more appropriate to look for theology not in a word but in a sentence or combination of words, a principle that most subsequent scholarly efforts to produce a "theological dictionary" have tried to follow.

[sblonline.org]


Truthtesty