Quote
Tommy Tsunami
God's blessings,[/quote
And herein lies your disingenuous claim to offense by Thieme and his defenders. I find not one single post by anyone claiming INFALLIBILITY by Thieme, and in fact made it clear I don't agree with everything yet you CLEARLY ignore all of that reality to post that which is not true and has not even a hint of validity. Show me where anyone claims such infallible status for Thieme's teaching. Something tells me you have another agenda since such a simple truth as genuinely representing the thoughts of those favorable to Thieme does not appear to be high on your list of priorities.
The weakness of others isn't the fault of R.B. Thieme and this is where much of the blame lies. But then, I have heard there is a seat in Rome where claims of infallibility rise now and then only to correct past doctrinal mistakes. LOL
AS USUAL Tommy, you thieme defenders always tout your generic I DON'T BELIEVE EVRYTHING HE TAUGHT then fail to list a single area of disagreement or why you think it is wrong what he taught.
IT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE he trained his faithful followers to do exactly what they did: believe his every word. They failed to kiss the hem of his garment as he passed, but he also failed to raise the dead as he went by, too. He said EXPLICITLY OVER AND OVER AGAIN that we cannot read the bible for ourselves and get truth from God, that we can't mature (his idea of maturity) apart from faithful "intake of (his teaching) of Bible doctrine." Why else be so afraid to miss a day without taking in (as in drug) doctrine? I don't recall being instructed to be glued to a man's teaching rather than to the source itself: God and His Words.
How do you deal with this?
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach
no other doctrine, {{{There are MANY SO-CALLED DOCTRINES THAT Thieme taught that are simply not in the bible. Examine the posts of SpirtualLiberty in this thread for more information and examples. You really owe it to yourself as a Thieme apologist to read all that has gone before.}}}
How about this?
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
That means single men, or divorced men, are not qualified. Don't give me that stuff about "one wife at a time." I doubt Thieme believed half what he said from the pulpit. Imagine Bobby having Katie explain over the phone about why a divorced man IS QUALIFIED. She of all people ought to know well how false the "Right Man-Right Woman" teaching was and still is. Yet it is till sanctioned, and weasling out by saying oh IT WAS MISUNDERSTOOD is not a sufficient answer when you claim DOCTRINAL BREAKTHROUGH for it. That is saying that the content of the message IS DOCTRINE AND THAT VIOLATES THE SCRIPTURE'S COMMAND to TEACH NO OTHER DOCTRINE.
HOW ABOUT THISPASSAGE?
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
GODLINESS was laughed at by Thieme. It was shredded by the practices of the flesh that naturally took over in the ABSENCE OF A VITAL AREA OF TRUTH, which is CHRIST IN YOU YOUR ONLY HOPE OF GLORY. Not how much Bible Doctrine you can suck down being spoon fed by the Master in the pulpit. Thieme was wrong about more than some of the things he did teach, he was even more wrong for WHAT HE LEFT OUT. Yet that thought is untenable to thieme loyalists, of which you are certainly one.
What about this?
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
IF EVER THERE WAS A MAN not gentle or patient or apt to teach, it was Thieme. He thundered from his pulpit and dared anyone to move a muscle in "disrespect" to his sacred process. I am sorry, but that is not church, it is indoctrination. If you must command manners, you are not a leader!
As long as you agree with Thieme you were left alone, and if you don't you had better stay quiet, you were ignored. (This was called privacy; I CALL IT ISOLATION.) If you left, it was
~ You did not understand the teaching.
~ He must not have been your right pastor.
~ My favorite expert recommended him. (So why are you disagreeing?)
~ He is so advanced in wisdom and expertise, (SCHOLAROLATRY), that nobody else is qualified to judge his teaching so therefore, anyone who does judge his teaching is WONG AND OUT OF LINE.
~If you reject the teaching, God will get you for it. This makes the teaching equal to the Word of God and don't tell me otherwise because it is absolutely the result of Thieme's training his hearers THAT WHAT HE TEACHES IS BIBLE DOCTRINE.
~ AND IF YOU DO DISAGREE, LEAVE, QUIETLY. Don't discuss with others any possible errors coming from Thieme's pulpit.
YOU AT LEAST had the novel twist of observing the all too sad truth that today's church is so apostasized that it makes Thieme look great. but you are sincerely wrong about his greatness.
He started out with a good idea, but ran it off a cliff, and drew many others after him who having believed him, surrendered their personal volition to him, and allowed him to convince them He was between them and God and between them and God's Words. And this was a direct result of his teaching them to do this, not a mere misunderstanding.
WHAT ABOUT:
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and
ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. There is no such doctrine as "right pastor-teacher." We are taught plainly to respect and love those elders who rule well. But we are not told to "worship" a pastor to the point that he does our thinking for him. After all, while under his sway, none of us would ever have considered questioning anything coming out of his mouth, and I don't think it is honest to claim otherwise. Saying this was just a few individual's weakness is a cop out.
When Thieme said:
LIKE IT OR NOT YOU ARE TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON ME!
and
YOU CAN'T READ THE WORD OF GOD YOUR SELF AND MATURE AS A BELIEVER
all true Christians ought to have gotten up and walked out, including me, but I did not because I had already obeyed this man's teaching by considering him my "right pastor-teacher" and that leaving his teaching was leaving God's Word. It was also per his teaching to invite God's wrath to not believe "Bible Doctrine."
And you say this is better than Calvin? I don't think so. Both were blind guides and both led people into a ditch.
Oh I know.
Not everything he said was wrong, but as Testy and others have pointed out, and what Thieme supporters still refuse to face, is that he was WRONG ABOUT ENOUGH to make it not worth the cost of sticking with him.
You could find other teachers, godly men, who humbly and quietly teach the Word of God and could use the support of hungry sheep.
So now. Tommy T. I suspect you are not going to answer these objections except to deny them. I dare you to listen to the tape excerpt of Thieme saying LIKE IT OR NOT YOU ARE DEPENDENT ON ME! and justify that from Scripture.
This link
{ [
www.4shared.com] } takes you to a page on the 4shared files web site. You will find a list of files available to listen to or download.
The SECOND AUDIO FILE on the list is Pastor Graves' presentation. He includes EXCERPTS from Thieme's tapes. Especially noteworthy is the place where Thieme actually says.
"Whether you like it or not, YOU are dependent on ME!"
Priceless.
This link
{ [
www.4shared.com] } should take you DIRECTLY to the link for Graves. Click on the PLAY TAB to access the recording.
We are not required to learn Hebrew or Greek to get truth from God and His Word. What we must have is TEACHABILITY, and that is one thing Thieme seems to have forgotten for himself. The attitude he projected from the pulpit was a bogus authorityand left a bad taste in the mouth of all sheep trying to find a faifhful shepherd who would LEAD THEM and not drill them as if they were his private platoon.
God is our friend, not our enemy. His Word is to the Christian who wants truth, sweet and not all that complicated to someone willing to be taught of the Spirit. We have a faithful translation of the inspired texts freely available to read. And if we are skilled in other languages, fine! But that is no guarantee of truth, and we ought not to submit to anyone who claims it is. It makes us DEPENDENT ON A MAN, and an arrogant one at that.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the
things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the
spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak,
not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
IF EVER there was an example of MAN'S WORDS exampting God's Words it is in the teaching of RB Thieme Jr. His words, his concepts, his "breakthroughs" (what an arrogant concept and how arrogant of him to point this out to us that we were so blessed to "sit under" such genius) taking over and pushing out the simple reliance upon what the Spirit gave us to read in our native language to be taught by the Spirit within what that means, I don't know of a plainer illustration for this verse than the system Thieme created and managed and now has passed on to the next man in his pulpit.
Now you are going to tell us that UNLESS YOU GET IT FROM THE HEBREW AND THE GREEK it can't be relied upon. Well, there was a lot missing from Bob Thieme's education regarding this. He left out a lot. He forgot to mention WHICH MANUSCRIPTS he was using. It makes a huge difference. He forgot to tell us that God is our friend, not our enemy, waiting to clobber us in case we "forgot" to confess a known sin. The legalism he created out of what was full of Grace and Truth takes my breath away.
And above all elese, his system created a cadre of PHARISEES WHO LIKE THE PARISEES OF OLD, had the Living Word standing before them and refused to come to Him for HIS LIFE.
As per:
l Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for
in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to
me, that ye might have life. We are saved by Christ and His Life, not by studying the Word under Bob Thieme. Sure the climate is dismal in most of Christianity today, but is that surprising given the nature of the enemy and the lateness of the hour? No.
Thieme stole from his hearers the priceless opportunity to learn God's Word simply by opening the Book and reading and asking Him to teach them. He can use teachers, but there is no replacing this as the PRIMARY SOURCE. When we surrender our judgment and our independence to a man, no matter how learned he may be in the original languages, we have lost God's method to grow us up IN HIM.
Thieme's whole scheme was full of DOCTRINES, METHODS, DEVICES, APPLICATION OF THIS OR THAT DOCTRINE, and who is it that is DOING these things? Self. It is a flesh driven life and it is a disaster personally and spiritually because it masquerades as TRUTH FROM GOD. It is not truth from God. It is interference with God's Word in the life of the believer. It need not have been so, but BobThieme made it so.
I expect the devil knows Greek and Hebrew very well indeed, doubtless better than any human. That says nothing about his character, his motives, or his methods, does it? Yet that is almost the sole reason people give in the end for being impressed with Bob Thieme. As if expertise in these languages qualifies a man to be a shepherd of a local church. it does not. There is a place for this knowledge, but it is not the be-all and end-all Thieme would have you believe it is.
How sad, for others once said of the REAL TEACHER,
"NEVER MAN SPAKE LIKE THIS MAN."
And that is the worshipful attitude Thieme's teaching engenders in all his followers. IT IS WHAT HE TAUGHT US TO BELIEVE, we did not misunderstand it. We were just as impressed and dedicated to the teaching as you seem to be. But it is a trap. It is lie. It is deadly.
Now tell me which of the usual excuses you will reply to all this with. Or perhaps you will say as another poster GeneZ said so aptly to the effect that his LIST OF THIEMES' ERRORS IS NOT FOR THE EYES OF THOSE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT RBT WAS ALL ABOUT. Sure! Sacred knowlege available only to the worshipful worthy. If you disagree, or leave, you obviously misunderstood or this was not "right" for you. What ever happened to a real belief in absolute Biblical truth? If he was the only one teaching the truth, and this is what is commonly taught and believed until his bogus methodology is absorbed and taken for divine revelation, then why would you want anyone to go anywhere else? It is plain Thieme set himself up as the ONLY TEACHER OF BIBLE TRUTH WORTH LISTENING TO. So why tell the lowly ones who happen to disagree that they must leave the TRUTH? You are consigning them to divine discipline. That IS what Thieme taught and you know it.
How is that for blind devotion and refusal to face obvious faults and failures?
How much poison do you like in your dessert?
Sistersoap