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radaphQuote
sistersoapQuote
radaphQuote
rrmoderator
radaph:
You said, "You are not objective. As such, I am finished discussing this with you. You haven't heard what I've said. So what's the point in saying more? There is none."
At this point you begin to sound like a child unwilling to participate in a group activity unless he or she has their way.
Please understand that just because people don't agree with you, this doesn't mean they are either not "objective" and/or "haven't heard."
It simply means that others think you are wrong and don't agree with you.
It seems like you may not be used to a group discussion with varying opinions and viewpoints.
No, the fact that you disagree doesn't bother me. It's why you disagree that bothers me. I think you people are far too willing to write off a Christian ministry as a cult based on the extremely biased opinions of a few bad eggs that came from that church. Well, there are people like that at every church in America. That doesn't mean there is something wrong with the churches. There is something wrong with the people.
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rrmoderator
Perhaps within the Thieme group there was a kind of cloned mindset, which precluded reaching conclusions from more than one perspective?
Oh please. That's just it. There is no "Thieme group."
If there is a forum for thiemites I've never found it. I haven't even looked.
I have talked on many forums, and discussed bible doctrine with every denomination with ever different idea you could imagine, even some athiests. Differing opinions do not bother me. I really enjoy a good debate. I don't enjoy it when someone I admire is being raked over the coals for a bunch of crap that isn't even true.
You said that you did not know of a forum FOR THIEMEITES. I WILL SUPPLY A LINK THAT IS A FORUM FOR THIEME PEOPLE:
It is called BIBLE DOCTRINE STUDY GROUP on Delphi,
[
forums.delphiforums.com]
HAVE FUN! For the curious, this forum shows vividly the attitudes that long time devotion to Thieme's teaching brings. Try some topics to see what I am talking about. How about
ABORTION
or
BAPTISM
Some real cultists who show up there from time to time don't really get what they need. My experience trying to deal with a cultist on that forum trying to sell his wares showed me that the Thieme people were unable to understand that cults use bible words with THEIR OWN SPECIAL DEFINITIONS so that greatly affects their ability to communicate clearly with them.
They totally missed my point. They did not help the cultist. THey tried to convince him that THIEME WAS THE ONLY REAL DEAL out there as far as Bible truth was concerned.
I go back now and then to make sure they are still there. It is a very depressing place for a former Thiemer, but can be very educational if you are new to Thieme.
It is a gold mine for Thieme doctrine researchers.
Sistersoap
I am not really interested in looking at a Thiemite forum. When I said there weren't any, I didn't really mean it literally. I just meant that the thiemites are not some organized group, they are just a bunch of people all over the world who follow thieme. But for the most part, they do so individually.
But I don't care to make any more arguments for the defense.
I do think I learned some valuable things about God's word from Berachah. For those I am thankful. But I also think I learned a lot of lies, and I am going to have to un-learn and re-learn a lot of things.
I talked with my father about this a few days ago, and to my surprise, he mostly agreed with me. The difference is he was able to discern the good from the bad about Thieme's teachings, and put the bad in his "spiritual garbage can" as he called it. But the difference between him and I is that he grew up in a baptist church and attended there until he was 22, then when he and my mom got married, they went to her church, where the pastor was definitely influenced by Thieme, but he wasnt' a clone. His church was a family, and had many other aspects that Berachah lacked. And my dad didn't start attending Berachah until he was almost 30.
But I grew up in Berachah, and as a child, I didn't question anything I was taught. I just believed. That's where the phrase "faith like a child" comes from. Children will believe almost anything. And I did. Because of that, I have certain spiritual disabilities, that hopefully I will eventually be able to overcome. The main one is that I have much trouble thinking of God as my father. I view him more as a 5 star general. The king of the universe sitting on His glorious throne, and completely unapproachable for the likes of me. I know from scripture that this is not true. I know that I can come "boldly before the throne." But knowing those things, and having faith in them are two different things. The later is what I am struggling with.
TP RADAPH:
Hi,
I posted a reply to you earlier today but the site acted like I had not even signed in even after two tries to sign in so I guess it was lost. I hate it when that happens.
Trying again, I will reply below to what you said above that was new:
YOU SAID:
I am not really interested in looking at a Thiemite forum. When I said there weren't any, I didn't really mean it literally. I just meant that the thiemites are not some organized group, they are just a bunch of people all over the world who follow thieme. But for the most part, they do so individually.
COMMENT:
Thanks for explaining. I can only go by what people actually say here. I thought maybe you really wanted to explore such a site. I don't go there much anymore. It is VERY depressing. I do check now and then to make sure they are still there so when I send people they will actually find what I sent them there for.
For an 'unorganized group' "Thiemeites" manage to affect a lot of people. With the growth of other "doctrinal churches"modeled after Thieme's ministry and many taper home groups they are often more than just a bunch of indicviduals. They do affect churches, dividing them and peeling members off because what they are hearing does not "measure up" to the "colonel's" teaching. But I know what you mean. Thieme is not now and never was heading up a denominational set up, but he did set things in motion for a genuine "movement" for that is what it is now, like it or not.
THEN YOU SAID:
But I don't care to make any more arguments for the defense.
I do think I learned some valuable things about God's word from Berachah. For those I am thankful. But I also think I learned a lot of lies, and I am going to have to un-learn and re-learn a lot of things.
COMMENT:
I don't think any former follower of Thieme has ever said on this forum that EVERYTHING Thieme said was wrong or bad. Far from it. My personal opinion is that he accurately identified the dearth of the Word of God in our churches and he set out to remedy that situation in his local baliwick. That is admirable and helpful. As far as I can see, for a while he was going along swimmingly at least as far as actual teaching in the Basic series, early version.
In fact the MIXTURE of truth and error is always deadlier than pure lies alone. I think you will have no trouble seeing that. It makes it harder to leave and easier for new people to get into the group.
You are correct about unlearning and learning. But it is a wonderfully freeing thing to do in the long run, especially if you and your wife are agreed about this process. You can leave a group, but what is in your head and heart takes longer to identify and grow out of. You don't just command the lies to leave. And having been raised in Prep school probably sunk those lies more deeply into your heart than coming to Thieme as an adult.
YOU SAID:
I talked with my father about this a few days ago, and to my surprise, he mostly agreed with me. The difference is he was able to discern the good from the bad about Thieme's teachings, and put the bad in his "spiritual garbage can" as he called it. But the difference between him and I is that he grew up in a baptist church and attended there until he was 22, then when he and my mom got married, they went to her church, where the pastor was definitely influenced by Thieme, but he wasnt' a clone. His church was a family, and had many other aspects that Berachah lacked. And my dad didn't start attending Berachah until he was almost 30.
COMMENTS:
GREAT OBSERVATIONS!
The reason you don't have to throw away the baby with the bath water so to speak, is that SOME of the things Thieme taught really are in the Bible. But almost none of his "how to live the Christian life" and this is your soul on the inside stuff is just that---STUFF. Sorting it out is not easy because in this case the POWERFUL CONTROLS built in to the teaching are VERY SUBTLE. This is not your ordinary coercive cult type controls, they are INTERNAL and inherent in the teachings. We were manipulated by FEAR AND GUILT and drawn forward and kept within the system by a BAIT AND SWITCH technique. Listen to more tapes learn more Bible Doctrine apply this that and the other" and you will MATURE and have DYING GRACE etc etc! This is the same effect that might happen under some standard Baptist teachings about IN AND OUT OF FELLOWSHIP, but Thieme's system had lots more bells and whistles and sunk deeply into his listeners for there were constant OVERT THREATS about terrible things would happen if you didn't get with the program. Or (shudder) if you should LEAVE or stop believing what you were taught. And by the way, don't tell anyone anything bad about what you have seen or heard here....that is maligning and GOD WILL GET YOU WITH TRIPLE COMPOUND DIVINE DISCIPLINE....just another of the many threats built into the system. I bet no Baptist church preaches that, but it is because they did not think of it!
I am really glad you have been talking with your Dad and that he can distinguish good from bad. For me the acid test has been CAN I RELAX NOW THAT I AM NOT LISTENING TO THIEME TAPES ANY MORE? Can I tell the truth about all this when appropriate and not fear God will clobber me? I wonder if your Dad still listens to RBT tapes any more?
YOU SAID:
But I grew up in Berachah, and as a child, I didn't question anything I was taught. I just believed. That's where the phrase "faith like a child" comes from. Children will believe almost anything. And I did.
COMMENT:
GOOD THOUGHT. Very true. And that is sad, because children's teaching ought to be THE MOST ACCURATE, THE BEST, MOST INTERESTING that is around any church.
And a lot of creative abilities go into "Prep School" it is just so full of baloney! Your recollections about that teaching you had as a child would be most enlightening to hear if you care to share it some time. Not everyone was harmed or even offended by these things, but a lot of walking wounded are around thinking they are just fine when their limp shows to everyone else. THEY can't see it, however.
YOU SAID:
Because of that, I have certain spiritual disabilities, that hopefully I will eventually be able to overcome. The main one is that I have much trouble thinking of God as my father. I view him more as a 5 star general. The king of the universe sitting on His glorious throne, and completely unapproachable for the likes of me. I know from scripture that this is not true. I know that I can come "boldly before the throne." But knowing those things, and having faith in them are two different things. The later is what I am struggling with
COMMENT:
That is a good way of looking at things. It IS a spiritually disabling what you have been through, especially because you grew up there. There are a lot of negative messages that are lodged in your mind that you may not even be aware of that will take a lot of working out. As you learn truth and replace lies with Bible truth things will get better. Be kind to yourself be patient seek the help you need, and KEEP LOOKING AND ASKING FOR HELP until you find what you need, and only you can be the best judge of that. You and your wife together have a wonderful journey ahead of you! You have been SPIRITUALLY ABUSED by lies. This is not exclusive to Thieme, but few have the kind of influence and control over his listeners that Thieme has because of the prescriptions of DAILY LISTENING and the threats of DIVINE DISCIPLINE including the SIN UNTO DEATH for various non Biblical infractions which intensified his control. It almost does not matter if this was by design or it just happened. The effect on US remains the same.
Keep us posted, OK?
I am so thankful for the good beginning you have made!
Sis