Truthtesty said...


It's quite possible that political powers that be within the USA, paid Thieme to teach as he did. For political persuasion of christians within the United States."


Everyone read that?


At first I could not believe my eyes.

Well, one thing you admitted by that. He would have had the respect of those in power. Cults do not get that kind of respect. Especially during those years when cults were flourishing in the USA.

And? As far as what might be in an attempt on your part to associate Thieme with Kittel's Nazi sympathies?

One of the things my Jewish father most respected about Thieme was his powerful Anti Semitism teachings. His pro-Israel teachings which were given in great detail.

Matter of fact.. You must have heard Thieme warn numerous times that if anyone sitting in his congregation is an Anti-Semitic? That he wanted them out of his church. For he showed from God's promise to Abraham, that there is a curse on them from God. Remember?

For the record.. Mind telling everyone here Thieme's stand on Anti-Semitism?

For, the way you are throwing Kittel and the Nazis around, youy may be swaying any Jewish moderators who might be overseeing this thread.


Tell us. What was Thieme's stand on Anti-Semitism? That would help distant him from any misunderstanding your Kittel/Nazi connection may have insinuated.

By the way.. My father not only appreciated Thieme's teachings on the Jews. He made copies for himself to listen to again.


This is getting interesting.....


It's quite possible that political powers that be within the USA, paid Thieme to teach as he did. For political persuasion of christians within the United States."


That's a keeper. LOL


In Christ, GeneZ

To the Forum:


Truthtesty: I am an expert on the truth. I find it quite easy to read Dr. Chafer. I would think anyone could if they wanted to face the facts.


gene: Was Chafer correct in all he said? Is that what you are saying?


Truthtesty: Talk to Thieme. Thieme is the one who said he followed Chafer closlely. Thieme lied. Thieme taught the satanic opposite of Dr. Chafer on the literal shed blood of Christ.
pastor Thieme misled people about Dr. Chafer, not me.


gene: If I come across the message number, I will let you know. Thieme explained to us one day that he discussed his ideas about the Blood of Christ directly with L.S. Chafer. Chafer told him that he felt if anyone was to explore and delineate the subject, it would be Thieme. For Thieme was one of his prized students.


Truthtesty: That? info? from you? and Thieme? with both of your deceptive histories? We are going to need some proof.


gene: Another Dallas graduate (circa 1950) told me that the teaching on the blood had at one time been presented in class at Dallas T.S. But when DTS began fund raising by approaching fundy organizations, they were concerned that Thieme's teaching on the blood (which he had credited in his book to learning at Dallas) would cause funds to suffer.


Truthtesty: I will need proof. It's very likely what your saying is a complete false hood. It is much more likely Thieme was paid by the Republican party to attack and smear liberals and Thieme tried to find a "moral christian reason" to do so. Afterall Thieme has associations with Ed Hunter (CIA) from CACC. Barbra Bush has attended Berachah church. Barbra Bush is married to ex-CIA and former president Bush. And both Bushs live within 2 miles of Berachah today. In effect, you could say that Thieme was the Fox News Channel before the Fox News Channel was the Fox News Channel. If you look at the current situtation in the middle east, you see the exact political agenda Thieme taught in the early 1970s being played out. Attack Iraq, Iran, and Syria. Dan Quayles wife attended Berachah. Who knows how many underlings in the current adminitration are former or current attendees of Berachah.

I was struck by what Barbra Bush said about how Katrina refugees:
"What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them."

This is so similar to what Thieme stated about how black slaves were better off being abused as slaves, with all thier being abused and tortured, because they would just be killing each other in the jungles of Africa anyhow, if they hadn't become slaves. Thieme terminology for black people is melanoderms.


gene: This pastor told me that much of what Thieme taught on the blood was taken from his notebook from classes he attended. This pastor (who will for now go unnamed) had graduated from Dallas and knew firsthand what was taught in the classroom. He told me it was a fund raising issue, and that Thieme was approached by DTS and was strongly asked to remove his source from his publication. Didn't know that, did you? Now you do. And, so do some other folks here, as well. That is one reason Thieme began to dislike DTS.


Truthtesty: No I don't know that. From you? again? I need to see proof.


Truthtesty

To the Forum:


gene:
And, one thing I will add which I find important. Thieme was never afraid to admit error and to correct a previous teaching. I found that refreshing in light of the pastors who will not admit they have been wrong at times.


Truthtesty: Was Thieme's microphone on? Because I NEVER heard Thieme EVER admit to ANY mistake WHATSOEVER. I do remember people being laughed at and frowned on for questioning Thieme. Maybe this was after I left.





Truthtesty

Quote
mile2
In May of that same year Thieme's Uncle Frederick had filed an affidavit wherein he described her to have certain "mental disorders and delusions from religious fanaticism."

From this it can be seen that Thieme's mother was extremely angry, physically violent, emotionally abusive, and displaying some sort of religious fanaticism, to the point of being certifiably insane. Being raised in such an atmosphere would most definately have a profound impact on the phycological development of a child. Thieme was 21 when the divorce complaint was filed, so subtracting 6 years we find he was about 15 when his mother's mental health rendered their home life unendurable.

Unfortunately Thieme seems to have absorbed that anger into his own personality, as so often happens in dysfunctional families.

mile2

It may explain why Thieme had such a strong dislike for fanatical Christians of that type. I was exposed to the same kind of person in my younger years as a Christian, and it was one of the reasons I identified so quickly with RBT's strong words against fundamental fanaticism. That might explain why he had insight into the pain they can inflict on those whom they try to influence, and how they do it. It may also explain why he was so down on legalistic bullies and wanted to protect the privacy of his congregation members. Interesting.

And, it may also explain why his teachings on child abuse are so in depth and helpful, because its truthful. Interesting, again.

God turns cursings into blessings. Did you not learn that? Its our hardships that make us strong in faith if we do not impugn the character of God for allowing such things to happen.


As far as Thieme's anger? I saw the exact same type of anger when I studied under Dr. Carlton Fredericks. Why? Well? He was controversial. The powerful drug industry was attacking him for his stand on nutrition. And, he turned out to have been right about many things he claimed.

What he was ridiculed for 35 years ago is now to be found in many supermarkets throughout the United States today. Yet? At that time? He was crucified with character assasination from those who had a vested interest in keeping the status quo with poor nutrition and solving what it causes with drugs. Look at all the obese people today. He warned this could happen.

Yet, he was attacked by certain people who saw him as a threat. Same exact anger I witnessed to first hand. Was he abused as a child? Dysfunctional family? If that's the case we have a huge part of an entire generation of children who are going to be angry all the time in the future...

I witnessed to that type of anger first hand. Carlton Fredericks was a very intelligent man. Just like Thieme.


In Christ, GeneZ

Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:


gene:
And, one thing I will add which I find important. Thieme was never afraid to admit error and to correct a previous teaching. I found that refreshing in light of the pastors who will not admit they have been wrong at times.


Truthtesty: Was Thieme's microphone on? Because I NEVER heard Thieme EVER admit to ANY mistake WHATSOEVER. I do remember people being laughed at and frowned on for questioning Thieme. Maybe this was after I left.

Truthtesty

More than once he told everyone to rip up their notes on "this" topic, or "that." That he just discovered something else which is not what he used to teach. I perked up when he did that. I found it refreshing. It was one of things that won me over.

For example. In his earlier days he used to teach that the sin nature resides in the soul. Its a common error still taught in a good number of churches today. When he taught Romans later on he corrected that stand, and taught correctly that the sin nature resides in the flesh, not the soul. There were several other corrections like that developed along the way.

Back in the eighties a person I knew (who went on to receive a Ph.D in theology) were discussing the various things Thieme corrected as he went along. We were both equally pleased how Thieme did not fail to correct errors as he went along without hesitation. For we both knew and had resented pastors who refused to. That was circa 1983.... At the time we discussed several issues he corrected without blinking. If I knew it would come to this, I would have written them down and filed it away.

Thieme also has said on record that he does not mind criticism...as long as its objective in approach. Its somewhere on tape. I wrote Berachah several times after hearing what he said. I noted a few things I saw differently. Katie had some informative correspondances with me. She spoke to the Colonel on my behalf and gave me his response on an issue I addressed. I may still have it filed away.

In Christ, GeneZ

To the Forum:


tonyatl: and from personal experience i remember thieme's dogmatic and hysterical assertions about the aorist tense as being "once for all" when it is nothing of the sort. fortunately christianity is more than greek grammar.

gene: That is not what the aorist tense is. Nor, did Thieme teach that. Aoarist tense has to do with something taking place in a point in time. Modifiers to the word can alter at what point, and if its to continue, etc. But, it is never intended in itself to be once and for all. You are possibly confusing the perfect tense, I believe. I attended another church where a Dallas graduate (one of Woolvard's prize students) did criticize some of Thieme's teaching. But, he never said what you are trying to tell others here. He also teaches from the Greek as his norm.


Truthtesty: gene your wrong. tonyatl you are correct. I remember Thieme saying that about the aorist tense. Also evidence from Dr. Wall:

Dr. Wall's doctoral dissertation: However, at times he tends to overstate the relevance of etymology28 and the significance of Greek grammar.29

28 For example, he presses the meaning of the Hebrew words for faith beyond their contextual meaning; see his book, The Faith-rest Life, pp. 53, 54.

29 For example, frequently Thieme emphasizes that the aorist tense always means "once-for-all" action. See article by Frank Stagg, "The Abused Aorist," The Journal of Biblical Literature 91 (June 1972): 222-31, for documentation that the aktionsart of the aorist tense is simple past action and does not necessarily demand "momentary, singular, or once and for all" significance. Stagg supported his conclusions with both specific scriptural examples and quotations from grammars by Ernest De Witt Burton and A. T. Robertson.




Truthtesty

To the Forum:


tonyatl: for those wanting to identify the signs of a cult, the comment i quoted above is a nice example. the leader is above reproach, he is too brilliant for anyone to evaluate him or undertand him; he therefore must be trusted as is. "you've been telling me you're a genius since you were 17...."

gene: I did not say no one was to evaluate him. Few, means few. Few are qualified to enter into the realm he worked in. I do not know about you, but only very few churches have pastors able to teach from the Greek and Hebrew texts. Very few. Dr. Vernon McGee and Dr. Donald Barnhouse were peers of Thieme. And, both were friends of Thieme. So? Who do you believe?


Truthtesty: tonyatl you are correct again. gene is trying to put Thieme on an irreproachable pedistal. Thieme is a cult leader. Now gene is trying to cover her tracks, mincing near meaningless words about few and none. Garbage. Thieme cannot even be trusted to properly evaluate the figurative usage of blood in Ardnt and Gingrich IN ENGLISH, let alone be left alone unsupervised to translate greek and hebrew to translate the bible correctly. THIEME'S REALM WAS A REALM OF DYSFUNCTIONAL INSANITY, NOT MANY IN THIER RIGHT MIND WOULD WANT TO ENTER THERE.

Who do you believe? You believe and have faith in God, not man. Go and learn at your own pace. Thieme is not necessary. When you know the Holy Spirit does his work in your heart, you know you don't need to trust Thieme for spiritual growth.

Also "see through" gene for what she is.



Truthtesty

truthtesty:
For example, frequently Thieme emphasizes that the aorist tense always means "once-for-all" action. See article by Frank Stagg, "The Abused Aorist
end truthtesty

thanks for the additional confirmation. i have listened to thieme more than enough to know what he he taught. one of thieme's mind control techniques was to repeat something ad infinitum ad nauseum; so recalling some of his pet themes is not difficult. i remember the surprise i got when i took attic greek in college and later again during another church experience with koine that the aorist tense did not mean what thieme claimed. of course the perfect tense comes closer to that idea but even so the perfect tense is not once for all as such. i would agree that context gives us ultimate meaning but thieme's abuse of meaning and context was sophomoric. he may well have modified later in his career his views of the aorist but it underscores his untrustworthiness as a greek "scholar". he was a bully who used a little knowledge to fool a lot of people and could get away with it because few people had the knowledge or nerve to confront him.

what motivated thieme's once-for-all grammar was his desparate need to support eternal security. it is not a notion taught in scripture as such. there is much to be said for it but it is also abused by people such as thieme. it is actually a truth for those persevering - not for those apostasizing. again it was all part of thieme's mechanistic, compartmentalized approach to christianity and life.

he was a fraud through and through. certainly an interesting and colorful character but nonetheless a charlatan and a fraud.

Quote
mile2
tonyatl:

"The material blood of Jesus was no more efficacious to cleanse from sin when it was shed upon "the accursed tree" than when it was flowing in his veins." If someone had told me this was a quote from Thieme I probably would not have doubted it. But in fact it is a quote from Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science., found in "Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures", written in 1910.

So it appears this "breakthrough" concept wasn't as cutting edge as Thieme proposed it to be.

mile2

it reminds me of the herbert w armstrong religion business where he claimed his own innovative truths but it was discovered with later research that he pilfered his ideas from someone else. although thieme was not as egregious as the armstrongs he was nonetheless peddling heresies and his cult.

of course, as an orthodox christian, eddy's and thiemes lies nauseate me. i would grant that the term of blood of christ may have a reference to death but its usage is so significant and equally literal because the lord commanded his sheep to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. and these were not figurative statements. as such i could nearly puke over the words quoted above. may the lord have mercies on us all.

tony:
could you tell me further about your knowledge of stan ashby? did he make this recommendation of thieme to you personally and if so, when? did he publish any remarks extolling bob thieme's works?

genez:
I do not know what he may have published. He spoke to me personally.

for your story to be true a lot of strange things would also have to be true. stanley royal ashby was a 1904 rhodes scholar which would conservatively put his birth date at c. 1885. he was an english instructor briefly (1926-27) at harvard where he obtained a phd in philology in 1927. he is listed no further at harvard as of 1937. however, he did move on to the university of maine where he was instrumental in the establishment of an honors program and was an english professor there during the 1930s and possibly as late as the 1950s...he taught chinese and korean during wwii to soldiers. he was also a pastor. my guess is that he knew nothing of bob thieme.

doing the math with the dates, thieme, and you i would need a substantial amount of corroborating evidence to believe anything you have said about stan ashby.