GeneZ:

Because several members of my family were followers of Thieme I was exposed to his teachings for over 30 years. I also attended 3 of his conferences as a favor to my family members. I realize that Thieme was more angry in some teachings than in others, but always there was an excessive and unreasonable anger displayed. As I pointed out in my earlier post, even when he read scripture the tone and inflection of his voice was filled with a bitter anger.

Anger in and of itself is not a bad thing. After all, it is a God given natural emotion. But there is an appropriate time and place to show anger. And it should be under our willful control. When children are toddlers they often lose control of their anger and throw temper tantrums. But with maturity they learn to keep their emotions in check. If used in the proper way the emotions God gave us should always serve a purpose and be profitable in some way. Unhealthy people use excessive anger as a means to intimidate and instill fear. (I did notice when I attended Thieme's conferences that those I went with were so fearful that they or someone in our group would accidentally cough loudly or move too much in their seat that they gave several warnings regarding the acceptable behavior. During the teaching they sat totally motionless outside the constant taking of notes, fearing they might offend Thieme and draw down his public wrath on them.)

Thieme's excessive angry rants and sarcastic humor degrading the "fundy preachers who taught subjective nonsense to religious self righteous believers" among other groups was shockingly inappropriate to many listeners. This isn't a matter of personality type. In any group of believers there are a variety of personality types, from the more outspoken to the more reserved and quiet, from the enthusiastic and humorous to those of a more serious bent. But excessive, inappropriate displays of anger are a sign of a personality disorder.

Being in the military does not excuse this behavior in any way. I realize that many soldiers who have been in combat later suffer from post traumatic stress syndrome and have problems controlling their anger, a condition for which they are urged to seek help. But Thieme never served in combat. I grew up in a military family where my father made it his career. I have observed and heard many high ranking officers speak on TV and elsewhere about extremely critical matters, and I am always struck by the one personality trait they all seem to have. And that is a tremendous mental discipline over their emotions and the ability to stay calm when facing very serious threats. These are true patriots. You mentioned the political degeneration of the Carter era and the Cold War, but every period of our history has had its trials and evils to overcome, including the present time.

You mentioned that Thieme was an answer to your prayer. Well, I have heard that said by other followers of Thieme, and strangely enough by another group. Almost every Morman who comes to my front door says they found the Morman faith after prayer and they always encourage me to pray and see if I will be led to recognize the truth of the Book of Morman. I really feel compassion for those young, smiling faces because they are very sincere. But they are sincerely wrong.

Thieme's childhood was, as a matter of fact based on court papers taken under oath, a psychological pit of quicksand. I am sorry for that, but I think it helped produce in Thieme a person of great character flaws. (See my posts on p.62 and p.65.)

mile2

To the Forum and gene:


Quote:
Truthtesty
To gene:

Among other things, I'm saying read Dr. Chafer, face the facts, and realize Thieme broke away from what Dr. Chafer wanted to produce. Admit when your wrong. Admit when Thieme is wrong. AND PROVIDE PROOF OF WHAT YOU CLAIM!
Truthtesty

gene quote: You got it wrong, sir. Chafer wanted to produce pastors who would be skilled in teaching from the Hebrew and Greek. Chafer himself saw his own deficiency in teaching because he lacked those very skills. So? If he produced the type of students he wanted to? Obviously, they who applied themselves and had ability would be a able to surpass his teaching skills.
In Christ, GeneZ

Truthtesty: Again your telling me I "got it wrong". So you know I am going to need to see factual proof of what you claim. Count on that in the future, BEFORE you make claims.

This time you claim:

gene quote: "Chafer wanted to produce pastors who would be skilled in teaching from the Hebrew and Greek."

Truthtesty: I can agree withe 1st part, but where is your proof in the second part of that statement?:

gene quote: "Chafer himself saw his own deficiency in teaching because he lacked those very skills"


Truthtesty: Where is your proof?
I do not see where Dr. Chafer says this? Where is your proof? I think this is just more of your prejudiced generalized spin. I think this is more of your "guessing the facts" in favor of Thieme, without actually providing any facts or without knowledge of the facts. Where does Chafer say "that he saw his own deficiency in teaching because he lacked those very skills?" Haven already proved that you have a propensity to make premature conclusions without careful research, I do not give you any credibilty for 2nd part of that statement. What I see is Dr. Chafer has done very careful research translating Hebrew and Greek, throughout Dr. Chafer's entire 8 volume set of Systematic Theology. If you made that statement up out of the blue, then you are falsely attacking Dr. Chafer. You call yourself "in Christ", so you should be wary of attacking Dr. Chafer in your defense of Thieme.

gene quote: If he produced the type of students he wanted to? Obviously, they who applied themselves and had ability would be a able to surpass his teaching skills.

Truthtesty: I am certain Dr. Chafer would be glad for a careful student of the Word to surpass him. Thieme did not surpass Dr. Chafer, if anything Thieme incompetently deprived christians of the important values of Dr. Chafer's teachings. Among the many incompetent manglings of Dr. Chafer's teachings by Thieme, Thieme managed to mangle the most important area of Dr. Chafer's teachings - the blood of Christ. Thieme managed to mangle and thereby confuse and detract from another important area of Dr. Chafer's teachings for the christian - spiritual maturity. For example: As Dr. Wall stated generously for Thieme:


Dr Wall: "The fourth chapter of this dissertation considered the subject of spiritual
maturity. This is the area of study in which most of Thieme's more recent
"doctrinal breakthroughs" have come. Although Thieme's doctrinal framework of
biblical exposition appears to be extremely scholarly and complex, it is actually
fraught with numerous unsupported presuppositions and unwarranted exegesis.
The result is unbalanced doctrine which misrepresents the biblical emphasis on
the Christian's life objective and fails to clarify the biblical method for true
spiritual growth.

Thieme's incompetent abilty? is better termed: "a dangerous disability".


Truthtesty

Quote
mile2
GeneZ:

Because several members of my family were followers of Thieme I was exposed to his teachings for over 30 years. I also attended 3 of his conferences as a favor to my family members. I realize that Thieme was more angry in some teachings than in others, but always there was an excessive and unreasonable anger displayed. As I pointed out in my earlier post, even when he read scripture the tone and inflection of his voice was filled with a bitter anger.

Anger in and of itself is not a bad thing. After all, it is a God given natural emotion. But there is an appropriate time and place to show anger. And it should be under our willful control. When children are toddlers they often lose control of their anger and throw temper tantrums. But with maturity they learn to keep their emotions in check. If used in the proper way the emotions God gave us should always serve a purpose and be profitable in some way. Unhealthy people use excessive anger as a means to intimidate and instill fear. (I did notice when I attended Thieme's conferences that those I went with were so fearful that they or someone in our group would accidentally cough loudly or move too much in their seat that they gave several warnings regarding the acceptable behavior. During the teaching they sat totally motionless outside the constant taking of notes, fearing they might offend Thieme and draw down his public wrath on them.)

Thieme's excessive angry rants and sarcastic humor degrading the "fundy preachers who taught subjective nonsense to religious self righteous believers" among other groups was shockingly inappropriate to many listeners. This isn't a matter of personality type. In any group of believers there are a variety of personality types, from the more outspoken to the more reserved and quiet, from the enthusiastic and humorous to those of a more serious bent. But excessive, inappropriate displays of anger are a sign of a personality disorder.

Being in the military does not excuse this behavior in any way. I realize that many soldiers who have been in combat later suffer from post traumatic stress syndrome and have problems controlling their anger, a condition for which they are urged to seek help. But Thieme never served in combat. I grew up in a military family where my father made it his career. I have observed and heard many high ranking officers speak on TV and elsewhere about extremely critical matters, and I am always struck by the one personality trait they all seem to have. And that is a tremendous mental discipline over their emotions and the ability to stay calm when facing very serious threats. These are true patriots. You mentioned the political degeneration of the Carter era and the Cold War, but every period of our history has had its trials and evils to overcome, including the present time.

You mentioned that Thieme was an answer to your prayer. Well, I have heard that said by other followers of Thieme, and strangely enough by another group. Almost every Morman who comes to my front door says they found the Morman faith after prayer and they always encourage me to pray and see if I will be led to recognize the truth of the Book of Morman. I really feel compassion for those young, smiling faces because they are very sincere. But they are sincerely wrong.

Thieme's childhood was, as a matter of fact based on court papers taken under oath, a psychological pit of quicksand. I am sorry for that, but I think it helped produce in Thieme a person of great character flaws. (See my posts on p.62 and p.65.)

mile2

You are all going to believe what you want to believe. The fact that many a pastor in the United States was listening to Thieme means nothing to you. Professor Stan Ashby means nothing to you because he does not serve your desired outcome. The man was Professor of Ancient Languages - Harvard.


Like I said before, he did not always agree with Thieme. But, he recommended him to me. Who agrees 100% with another in the same field? Its healthy when we do not.

Now, as far as that biography? NOTHING was verified.

I contacted the author directly. Here is his response.






Thank you for your email. In answer to your question let me say first of all I believe that for men and women who significantly impact a segment of our society it is beneficial to chronicle their lives for the historical record. The purpose of my biography of Robert B. Thieme Jr. was to record as accurately as possible the facts concerning his life and those of his ancestors. I did not evaluate or comment on his character or Biblical teachings in any way. I also decided not to include personal interviews in order to eliminate any biased viewpoints, either for or against Col Thieme.

My aim was to present all the factual data available, thoroughly documenting their sources, which were for the most part newspaper accounts, other books and articles, and official documents of public record. I'm sure every person reading my book, such as the reviewer you mentioned, will form his or her own opinions, which will be many and varied. But the book itself does not present any opinions or make any judgments on the factual data.

I hope this answers your question.

Sincerely,

C.G. Hunt







> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 01:10:18 -0700
> From: .............
> To: cg-hunt@hotmail.com
> Subject: Contact Us Requested
>
> You have received a contact request from a visitor to your storefront:





Now. if that man was a reporter for a newspaper? He'd be fired for publishing before verifying his facts.

He said he did not do any follow ups, or interviews. The data he collected he did find any verification for.


If Robert Thieme did not have Alzheimer's and his wife in a nursing home, this man most likely would be sued.

And? If this man is so concerned about "men" who impact Christianity? Has he published any other books about other such men? Any other books at all? NO.






In Christ, GeneZ

Quote
Truthtesty
T

Dr Wall: "The fourth chapter of this dissertation considered the subject of spiritual
maturity. This is the area of study in which most of Thieme's more recent
"doctrinal breakthroughs" have come. Although Thieme's doctrinal framework of
biblical exposition appears to be extremely scholarly and complex, it is actually
fraught with numerous unsupported presuppositions and unwarranted exegesis.
The result is unbalanced doctrine which misrepresents the biblical emphasis on
the Christian's life objective and fails to clarify the biblical method for true
spiritual growth.

Thieme's incompetent abilty? is better termed: "a dangerous disability".


Truthtesty

Truthtesty? What qualifies you to say if Dr. Wall is correct? Stan Ashby was a Professor of Ancient Languages, Harvard. He recommended Thieme to me.


Who do you want to believe?

And, that is the real issue here. Isn't it?

Who do you want to believe?


Like I said earlier... A DTS graduate who taught from the Hebrew and Greek said only a few are qualified to evaluate Thieme.

Knowing that? By his fruit you will know him. I have known, and do know believers who follow Thieme's teachings. Very normal well adjusted people.


And? I have been in other ministries. I have been in other churches. And, always.... there will always be a few malcontents who will find fault where there is none. Or, (this is the real problem) will place anything that is a problem on a projection screen, so that the problem which was three feet tall now looks like Godzilla attacking Tokyo.


I sit here and wonder if there is a way to reach you. The moderators really can not evaluate anything doctrinal that you are posting.

So? It all comes down to this.

Who do you want to believe?


Berachah Church is still carrying on the same doctrinal teachings as before. Why are those here not attacking the current ministry? Why are you all only attacking someone from the past, who is not teaching today?

Something does not add up, sir. I think what you are doing is personal, not objective.

For if doctrine were your true motivation? You should be warning the world about Bobby Thieme's ministry. But? He does not have Alzheimer's. Does he?


In Christ, GeneZ

To the Forum and gene:


Truthtesty: Not exactly. You can run, but you can't hide. You "corrected that" yourself to a point, but you have not apologized for your falsely accusing me of being "absolutely wrong"


gene: If that what you want?


Ok... I'm sorry for falsely accusing you of something you did not say.


Now, let's move on.



Truthtesy: I can apreciate your apology. And I can see why you want to move on.

However, what still may not be clear and the Forum should note is that gene accused me of being "absolutely wrong" before and without her fact checking of the sources within Kittle Vol I and the internet article. She stopped short of the necessary sound fact checking with only the internet article about Johann Behm (Königsberg) and illogically jumped and attacked me with a politically motivated false accusation, and did not soundly compare and contrast Johann Behm (Königsberg) and Johannes Behm (Göttingen), with her information from the internet article on Johann Behm (Königsberg) contrasted with information on Johannes Behm (Göttingen)) in Kittel. This shows her irresponsible, incompetent, false research method and her unnatural willingness to make illogical, politically prejudiced, and false accusations which sacrifice truth and reality, to defend Thieme.

Now she has embarassed herself, she was wrong, and she only has herself to blame for it.


This is what she should have done as I did:

HERE'S THE PROOF!
In Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Gerhard Kittel, on page XV of of Volume I (1964) it has a list of contributing authors. The title is Contributers. Gerhard Kittel is listed as editor from Tübingen. The 3rd on the list of contributing authors is Johannes Behm, Göttingen. Johannes Behm is the only Behm listed FOR THE ENTIRE VOLUME. So as I said previously and now have proven it, It is the same J. Behm that was the author of "Das Neue Testament Deutsch"

As Stated previously on November 04, 2007 04:05

Behm, Johannes
(1883–1948). Prot. theol.; b. Doberan, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Ger.; prof. Königsberg 1920, Göttingen 1923, Berlin 1935. Coed. Das Neue Testament Deutsch. Other works include Die Handauflegung im Urchristentum; Der Begriff Diatheke in Neuen Testament; Die Bekehrung des Paulus; Die mandäische Religion und das Christenturn.
[216.88.180.29]

Kittle makes many references to Behm. I identified the correct Behm from Kittle's TDNT page 124 Vol VI references Behm Apk. (NT Deutsch I) (Das Neue Testament Deutsch). Kittle's TDNT page 500 Vol IV references J. Behm, NT Deutsch III 1935 (Das Neue Testament Deutsch). It might be possible, however, I have not had the time to research to see if Kittle makes any references Johann Behm (1686-1753).



Truthtesty

To the Forum:

gene quote: Then I am an apologist. Because I have been greatly helped by "Dr. Thieme's" teachings. He was the only pastor my Jewish father respected and would listen to. My father thought Thieme had an open mind. Believe it, or not.

Truthtesty: Thieme does not have a doctorate degree. It's not "Dr. Thieme", it's "pastor Thieme".


Truthtesty


gene: You missed my point, sir. I was giving an illustration.


Truthtesty: I did not miss your point. I am making clear to everyone that Thieme does not have a doctorate degree.


Truthtesty

Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum and gene:


Truthtesty: Not exactly. You can run, but you can't hide. You "corrected that" yourself to a point, but you have not apologized for your falsely accusing me of being "absolutely wrong"


gene: If that what you want?


Ok... I'm sorry for falsely accusing you of something you did not say.


Now, let's move on.



Truthtesy: I can apreciate your apology. And I can see why you want to move on.

However, what still may not be clear and the Forum should note is that gene accused me of being "absolutely wrong" before and without her fact checking of the sources within Kittle Vol I and the internet article. She stopped short of the necessary sound fact checking with only the internet article about Johann Behm (Königsberg) and illogically jumped and attacked me with a politically motivated false accusation, and did not soundly compare and contrast Johann Behm (Königsberg) and Johannes Behm (Göttingen), with her information from the internet article on Johann Behm (Königsberg) contrasted with information on Johannes Behm (Göttingen)) in Kittel. This shows her irresponsible, incompetent, false research method and her unnatural willingness to make illogical, politically prejudiced, and false accusations which sacrifice truth and reality, to defend Thieme.

Now she has embarassed herself, she was wrong, and she only has herself to blame for it.


This is what she should have done as I did:

Now you owe me an apology...

Gene, is masculine gender. Jean, is feminine. In the United States, that is. If I were French, Jean could be masculine.

Now? Apologize for your ignorance, please. You were absolutely wrong on what you assumed.

And? So I do not make the same mistake with you? Are you male? Female? Truthtesty is ambiguous.

I really do not know what you are.


In Christ, GeneZ

(like in - Gene Kelly.. Gene Autry.. and, Gene Krupa)

To the Forum:


Truthtesty: I am an expert on the truth. I find it quite easy to read Dr. Chafer. I would think anyone could if they wanted to face the facts.

gene quote Was Chafer correct in all he said? Is that what you are saying?

Truthtesty: Talk to Thieme. Thieme is the one who said he followed Chafer closlely. Thieme lied. Thieme taught the satanic opposite of Dr. Chafer on the literal shed blood of Christ.

pastor Thieme misled people about Dr. Chafer, not me.

Truthtesty



gene: Closely? Does that mean, completely? Those are two different terms.

Chafer had taught MANY MANY things. You are concentrating on only a small portion of his teachings.


Truthtesty: I am concentrating on "a portion" of Dr. Chafer's teachings at this time. I do not have time to work on this 24 hours a day. Time permitting in the future I wll get to the rest of Thieme's errors in comparison to Dr. Chafer. Already in the examples shown, Thieme is not close to Dr. Chafer. As matter of fact, on the blood of Christ, Thieme could not be further from Dr. Chafer. Thieme teaches the satanic opposite of Dr. Chafer on the blood of Christ. That would be considered NOT CLOSELY FOLLOWING DR. CHAFER.


Such as? What did Chafer say will happen to those who reject Jesus Christ? Do you know? Thieme taught it very closely.

And? I will ask you. Why are you not bashing his son who took over the Church? He teaches essentially the same doctrines. He is the one actively teaching today. I wonder why you are silent on the one who is actively teaching such doctrines, yet bashing a man who is no longer teaching, and sits in a nursing home with Alzheimer's.
IC, GeneZ


Truthtesty: Silent? I haven't had time yet. Thieme's son is invited to join this forum anytime.

You know as well as everyone else does that Thieme's tapes are still available. Regardless, of Thieme's current harmless status, the tapes from when Thieme taught throughout the past many years are still available and still dangerous to many people.





Truthtesty:

To the Forum:

gene: Then I am an apologist. Because I have been greatly helped by "Dr. Thieme's" teachings. He was the only pastor my Jewish father respected and would listen to. My father thought Thieme had an open mind. Believe it, or not.


Truthtesty: Thieme does not have a doctorate degree. It's not "Dr. Thieme", it's "pastor Thieme".


gene: Yet, interesting enough. What was to became his doctorate in working? What was to be his doctorate never got finished because he became too busy with teaching six days a week. You should know that. Know many pastors who studied for hours a day, and taught hour long classes, seven to eight times a week? He was a rare bird who was fully dedicated to teaching.


Truthtesty: That was Thieme's choice. Hitler as well as many other cults are highly dedicated to study and other activites. That doesn't make them correct. It's quite possible that political powers that be within the USA, paid Thieme to teach as he did. For political persuasion of christians within the United States. Hitler charged Doktor Gerhard Kittel with finding a "moral reason" to get rid of Jews in Europe, to politically persuade German christians to be prejudiced against Jews. Is it too much of a stretch to think that Thieme wasn't paid? Christianity has been "used" throughout history to "politically persuade" the christian masses for whatever "the powers that be" have wanted.

If you think Thieme was so great and so well recogized, then why was Thieme never offered any honorary doctorates?


gene: Hal Lindsey turned it into a NY Times best seller, "Late Great Planet Earth."
Late Great Planet Earth
As you probably well know, RBT became upset with Hal because Hal took some liberties that misrepresented some things Thieme had worked on. And, he did not know Hal was going to use his thesis for writing a book.
Be that as it may, "Late Great Planet Earth" would not have been read worldwide if Hal Lindsey did not have access to the Colonel's papers. RBT never finished his thesis for his doctorate.
Yet, Professor Stan Ashby - Professor of Ancient Languages [Harvard] did recommend Thieme to me one day. I would take that as at least a little bit being in the know. Doctorate , or not.
As always.... In Christ, GeneZ


Truthtesty: I am not impressed with Hal Lindsey. And anyhow? that information? And those claims? Ashby? from you? And your history?

I am going to need to see proof, as par for the course.

And it's Lt. Col. Thieme (Ret), not Colonel Thieme.


Truthtesty

To the Forum:


Truthtesty: I am an expert on the truth. I find it quite easy to read Dr. Chafer. I would think anyone could if they wanted to face the facts.

gene: Was Chafer correct in all he said? Is that what you are saying?

Truthtesty: Talk to Thieme. Thieme is the one who said he followed Chafer closlely. Thieme lied. Thieme taught the satanic opposite of Dr. Chafer on the literal shed blood of Christ.

pastor Thieme misled people about Dr. Chafer, not me.

gene: I asked you if you thought Chafer was correct in all he taught for a reason. If he was? Then Thieme had no right to change anything from what Chafer ever taught. Was Chafer 100% correct in all he taught? If not? Then Thieme could only follow him closely, but not always exactly. That's the point.

Truthtesty: No you asked me was Chafer correct in all he said?. As I said before Thieme taught the satanic opposite of Dr. Chafer on the literal shed blood of Christ. That's about as FAR (NOT CLOSE) as one can get from Dr. Chafer. That's just one example.

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer: Vol. 2, Page 108 All teachers are to be judged by their attitude toward the doctrine of the blood redemption of Christ, rather than by their winsome personalities, their education, or their sincerity. Since the blood redemption of the cross is the central truth and value of the true faith, it being the “power of God unto salvation” (Rom. 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:23–24), any counterfeit system of doctrine which would omit this essential, must force some secondary truth into the place of prominence.

The FAR satanic opposite on such a central value to Dr. Chafer's teachings as the literal shed blood of Christ, casts doubt on any other teachings Thieme might claim to be close to Dr. Chafer on, even if Thieme copied exactly what Dr. Chafer said in some cases.



Truthtesty