gentlemen -

in the earlier days, e.g. c. 1969 basics and 1970 advanced series thieme put great stock in chafer and made wonderous claims of his alleged intimacy with chafer in his last days and how he and he alone (almost) had assumed the chafer mantle of holding fast to the faith...however, ever the consumate showman, thieme would make greater and greater use of his "doctrinal breakthroughs" after agonizing long nights and days over the "original greek"...

i remember hearing the tapes where thieme made a huge collossal deal over this breakthrough claiming how he uncovered a lost truth about the blood of christ and how ignorant and foolish centuries of theologians were because of their simplistic wooden literal interpretive error...and if that meant contradicting chafer then so be it...thieme grew ever more boisterous and contemptuous of earlier theologians although he might not "dis" chafer as such...

thieme referenced whoever supported his case and slammed whoever opposed it on an as-needed basis...chafer was golden but not above reproach....

To gene:


Among other things, I'm saying read Dr. Chafer, face the facts, and realize Thieme broke away from what Dr. Chafer wanted to produce. Admit when your wrong. Admit when Thieme is wrong. AND PROVIDE PROOF OF WHAT YOU CLAIM!


Truthtesty

To tonyatl and Forum:

Thank you for your post at the top of page 82.

You mentioned "Thieme's extreme histrionics" and that brought to mind something that disturbed me when I first heard Thieme teach. In every teaching I have heard, Thieme's delivery has had an undercurrent of extreme anger that often erupts into a full blown rage. He would read the most benign of scriptural passages with a vitriolic emotion that seemed to defy any reasonable explanation. Also he seemed not to have any sense of humor apart from sarcasm and the demeaning of another person or group. I often wondered what influences in his life could have led him to develop such an attitude.

You mentioned the new biography, "Robert B. Thieme, Jr.; His Ancestry, His Life", by C.G.Hunt. When I learned from it that his mother was committed to an insane asylum while he was in college, at least some of the pieces to the puzzle started to fall into place. In 1939 Thieme's father alleged in the "Complaint in Divorce" that for more than 6 years his wife (Thieme's mother) had treated him in "an extremely cruel and inhuman manner so as to cause grievous mental suffering and grievous bodily injury. That the acts of cruelty have caused great bodily pain and mental anguish, and impaired his health, destroyed his happiness, or any happiness in the home, and made the home miserable and discordant and rendered his life so unendurable that he was forced to cease living with the defendant." In May of that same year Thieme's Uncle Frederick had filed an affidavit wherein he described her to have certain "mental disorders and delusions from religious fanaticism."

From this it can be seen that Thieme's mother was extremely angry, physically violent, emotionally abusive, and displaying some sort of religious fanaticism, to the point of being certifiably insane. Being raised in such an atmosphere would most definately have a profound impact on the phycological development of a child. Thieme was 21 when the divorce complaint was filed, so subtracting 6 years we find he was about 15 when his mother's mental health rendered their home life unendurable.

Unfortunately Thieme seems to have absorbed that anger into his own personality, as so often happens in dysfunctional families.

mile2

Quote
mile2
To tonyatl and Forum:

From this it can be seen that Thieme's mother was extremely angry, physically violent, emotionally abusive, and displaying some sort of religious fanaticism, to the point of being certifiably insane. Being raised in such an atmosphere would most definately have a profound impact on the phycological development of a child....
Unfortunately Thieme seems to have absorbed that anger into his own personality, as so often happens in dysfunctional families.

mile2

this is huge. i did not know this but always suspected it. he rarely referred to his mother in his anecdotes. part of the reason i suspected maternal-child dysfunction was because my mother was much the same though not to the point of insanity. in fact, one of the reasons why i thought thieme was normal and spiritual was because my mother acted as thieme did and she was religiously fanatical. so i thought this was how all spiritual giants behaved. and of course growing up holy roller only added to the brew. i ended up for many years mimicing my mother and thieme with quite unhappy consequences.

christ said that he would that we were either hot or cold but the analogy has limits which thieme, thieme's mother, and my mother breached in extremely egregious ways. the sad thing is that the fervor was not channeled into acts which the lord commended: feed me when i hunger, give raiment when i am naked, be a father to the fatherless.

i am certain that thieme was negatively influenced by his home life. but you are right about his vitriolic uncontrollable rage about anything which disturbed or contradicted his world view. i can remember on numerous occassions where i thought it bordered on demoniacal. this was but one factor, as noted previously, which finally caused me to question his suitability and worthiness to be a pastor.

and once that is questioned, much of his doctrine fell under suspicion also. jesus and the apostles always stated that leadership, thought, and behavior could not be compartmentalized. they needed to exist in harmony and show the fruit of the spirit in order for the package to be accepted.

To the Forum and gene:


As i said before:
Truthtesty
To the Forum:
People have a right to know beforehand that Thieme used Gerhard Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. People have a right to know beforehand that Gerhard Kittle and Johannes Behm were Hitler's Theologians. People have a right to know beforehand what Dr. Chafer said about the blood of Christ.

gene quote: Kittel was the editor of the Theological Dictionary. He was not the one who exegeted the term "blood." He compiled and organized the works of excellent theologians, many of the past.

As far as Johann Behm being one of Hitler's theologians?

You are absolutely wrong.

As far as Johannes Behm's credentials? Impressive, would be an understatement.

From: [www.manchester.edu]

Behm, Johann (1686-1753)

1702 (Nov 1): Matriculation (Königsberg).

1710 (Aug 12): Magister (Jena).

1712 (Jan 7): AR, Lecturer in Philosophy.

1717: Assoc. Prof. of Greek (Königsberg).

1717 (Nov 2): Dr. of Theology (Königsberg), Assoc. Prof. of Theology.

1721: Full Prof. of Greek (Königsberg).

1728-51: 1st Librarian, University Library (replaced M. S. Grabe).

1733: Consistory Advisor (Samland).

1745: 7th Full Prof. of Theology (Königsberg).

1750: 6th Full Prof. of Theology (Königsberg).

Born (Apr 7) in Holland (Prussia), the grandson of Michael Behm (1612-1650, theology professor from 1639-50), who was in turn the son of his more famous father, Johann Behm (1578-1648), who taught in the theology faculty from 1609-48. After graduating from Jena, Behm toured through Holland and England. He maintained his full professorship in Greek alongside his professorship in theology. (Gause gives the more recent Behm’s birth-year as 1686.) [Sources: Hagelgans 1737; Arnoldt 1746, ii. 194, 217, 372, 468; Pisanski 1886, 319, 244-5; Gause 1996, ii.242; ADB; Wotschke 1928, 36-7]

Johann Behm had impeccable credentials.

I guess... he was a cult, too.



Truthtesty: No gene it is you who is absolutely wrong. It is not your Johann Behm that you posted in your article, it is Johannes Behm as I said it was (posted: November 04, 2007 04:05):
Behm, Johannes
(1883–1948). Prot. theol.; b. Doberan, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Ger.; prof. Königsberg 1920, Göttingen 1923, Berlin 1935. Coed. Das Neue Testament Deutsch. Other works include Die Handauflegung im Urchristentum; Der Begriff Diatheke in Neuen Testament; Die Bekehrung des Paulus; Die mandäische Religion und das Christenturn.
[216.88.180.29] .


HERE'S THE PROOF!
In Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Gerhard Kittel, on page XV of of Volume I (1964) it has a list of contributing authors. The title is Contributers. Gerhard Kittel is listed as editor from Tübingen. The 3rd on the list of contributing authors is Johannes Behm, Göttingen. Johannes Behm is the only Behm listed FOR THE ENTIRE VOLUME. So as I said previously and now have proven it, It is the same J. Behm that was the author of "Das Neue Testament Deutsch"

As Stated previously on November 04, 2007 04:05

Behm, Johannes
(1883–1948). Prot. theol.; b. Doberan, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Ger.; prof. Königsberg 1920, Göttingen 1923, Berlin 1935. Coed. Das Neue Testament Deutsch. Other works include Die Handauflegung im Urchristentum; Der Begriff Diatheke in Neuen Testament; Die Bekehrung des Paulus; Die mandäische Religion und das Christenturn.
[216.88.180.29] .

Kittle makes many references to Behm. I identified the correct Behm from Kittle's TDNT page 124 Vol VI references Behm Apk. (NT Deutsch I) (Das Neue Testament Deutsch). Kittle's TDNT page 500 Vol IV references J. Behm, NT Deutsch III 1935 (Das Neue Testament Deutsch). It might be possible, however, I have not had the time to research to see if Kittle makes any references Johann Behm (1686-1753).

I want people to notice what gene did here, because it is very similar to what Thieme did to Chafer. Look at my statement It might be possible, however, I have not had the time to research to see if Kittle makes any references Johann Behm (1686-1753). gene took this as an unresolved crack in my research. I simply and honestly stated that I had not finished my research, which no I have. But what does gene do? gene in her extreme prejudiced fervor in defending Thieme AND NOT HAVING CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OR HAVING PROVEN ANYTHING, AUTOMATICALLY JUMPS TO AN EXTREME FALSE CONCLUSION, JUST TO DEFEND THIEME.


No gene it is you who is absolutely wrong. BEFORE, YOU EVER TRY TO TELL ME I AM ABSOLUTELY WRONG AGAIN, GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT. QUIT JUMPING TO FALSE EXTREME CONCLUSIONS IN YOUR ERRORED WAYS OF DEFENDING YOUR "FUHRER".


Confessed Nazi Doktor Johannes Behm was one of the contributing authors to "haima". There were 2 authors others as well to haima, which makes fervent Nazi Doktor Kittel as the culpable NAZI composer of the 3 authors for "haima" Kittel TDNT vol I p. 174 footnote 17 (which included the infamous "pregnant verbal symbol" phrase).

Thieme did the same thing to Dr. Chafer as I stated previously:

October 25, 2007 04:18PM

It seems Thieme sought-out the areas where Dr. Chafer specifically said: "it is not given to man", "cannot be known", "not fully revealed", "not enough is revealed", etc... These are the areas where Thieme created his extreme predjudiced theories or where Thieme jumps to an extreme anti-human theory.

Note Chafer says Vol 2 page 313-314

Quote:
"In His death, He shrank back, not from physical pain, nor from the experience of quitting the physical body, but, when contemplating the place of a sin bearer and the anticipa­tion of being made sin for us, He pleaded that the cup might pass. The death of Christ was wholly on behalf of others; yet, while both the physical and the spiritual aspects of death were demanded in that sacri­fice which He provided, it is not given to man, when considering the death of Christ, to disassociate these two the one from the other.


Vol. 7 page 80 (summarizing) Dr. Chafer said in reference to "John 19:28 “It is finished”" No man in this world can know exactly what Christ went through.

More examples:

Vol. 5, Page 264 sprinkling the mercy seat Dr. Chafer "not fully revealed"

Vol. 5, Page 266 In reference to the controversy of Christ entering the heavenly sanctuary with blood. Chafer "not enough is revealed"




To the Forum: Do you own research. Watch out for false academics who look for "research dead ends", then they jump to an extreme predjudiced false conclusion, which supports thier own corrupt hidden agenda. Why? It is an academic trick. Who can prove them wrong if there is no evidence? How? Show impeccable credentials(true or not) that no one "should" doubt. Certainly there will be many unwitting fools who will follow. What do you do to those who are smart enough to see through you and dissent? Show them the door.


As I said before:
To the Forum:
People have a right to know beforehand that Thieme used Gerhard Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. People have a right to know beforehand that Gerhard Kittle and Johannes Behm were Hitler's Theologians. People have a right to know beforehand what Dr. Chafer said about the blood of Christ.





Truthtesty

Quote
tonyatl
gentlemen -

in the earlier days, e.g. c. 1969 basics and 1970 advanced series thieme put great stock in chafer and made wonderous claims of his alleged intimacy with chafer in his last days and how he and he alone (almost) had assumed the chafer mantle of holding fast to the faith...however, ever the consumate showman, thieme would make greater and greater use of his "doctrinal breakthroughs" after agonizing long nights and days over the "original greek"...

i remember hearing the tapes where thieme made a huge collossal deal over this breakthrough claiming how he uncovered a lost truth about the blood of christ and how ignorant and foolish centuries of theologians were because of their simplistic wooden literal interpretive error...and if that meant contradicting chafer then so be it...thieme grew ever more boisterous and contemptuous of earlier theologians although he might not "dis" chafer as such...

thieme referenced whoever supported his case and slammed whoever opposed it on an as-needed basis...chafer was golden but not above reproach....

I will remind you of something I said earlier. I was recommended Thieme by a Professor Stan Ashby. Was he qualified to know the quality of Thieme's work? Professor Ashby used to be Professor of Ancient Languages, Harvard.

I have been told by someone (Dallas TS graduate) who taught from the Greek and Hebrew, that very few are qualified to evaluate Thieme properly. But? If you want to? I suggest you acquire a small library of reference books and check out what Thieme says. I did that in my early years, and also at that time had access to two different Bible college libraries with their reference books. Its hard work. But, I wanted to verify what Thieme was claiming. For its easy to BS when others are not skilled in that area of learning. After about three years of questioning and verifying, I finally called it quits and simply began to trust the integrity of Thieme's thinking. No one is 100% right. That was not an issue with me.

But? If you can not trust the man? You should move on and find a teacher in whom you can trust. One you can feel comfortable with.


BTW, many of the earlier theologians and teachings he spoke of originated with the same church that brought us the Inquisitions. Tradition went unquestioned for centuries and was forbidden to do so. Luther almost was killed for simply believing in salvation by faith alone.

Thieme was breaking away from a stronghold of religious tradition that most do not question. Study the Word long enough, and have the gift to teach? Its inevitable that you will be able to correct certain unquestioned traditional thinking.

But? Like I said? If you can not trust the man? You should move on and find a teacher in whom you can trust.

Thieme always taught that he was not raised up to be everyone's teacher. And, that was correct. He was not running a popularity contest, and everyone was free not to attend if they did not like his teaching.



In Christ, GeneZ

Quote
Truthtesty
To gene:


Among other things, I'm saying read Dr. Chafer, face the facts, and realize Thieme broke away from what Dr. Chafer wanted to produce. Admit when your wrong. Admit when Thieme is wrong. AND PROVIDE PROOF OF WHAT YOU CLAIM!


Truthtesty

You got it wrong, sir. Chafer wanted to produce pastors who would be skilled in teaching from the Hebrew and Greek. Chafer himself saw his own deficiency in teaching because he lacked those very skills. So? If he produced the type of students he wanted to? Obviously, they who applied themselves and had ability would be a able to surpass his teaching skills.


In Christ, GeneZ

Quote
Truthtesty

As I said before:
To the Forum:
People have a right to know beforehand that Thieme used Gerhard Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. People have a right to know beforehand that Gerhard Kittle and Johannes Behm were Hitler's Theologians. People have a right to know beforehand what Dr. Chafer said about the blood of Christ.





Truthtesty

Truthtesy... I already corrected that myself. Its on page 83. You comeback was on page 84. The lag in getting things posted here can cause things to become disjointed in flow. And Read what I documented about Behm not being one of Hitler's theologians. Only Kittel was documented as being so. There were a good number theologians in Germany at that time. Not all spoke out against Hitler. Yet, not all endorsed him either. Do you have documentation to show Behm was one of Hitler's theologians? The documentation I have leaves him of the list which Kittel is on.....



In Christ, GeneZ

To the Forum and gene:

As I posted before:

To the Forum:

Doing my best wth German. Anyone who knows German feel free to help me out. Regardless, one can see the following professors confessed to Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist party.

"Chronik/Rückblick mit scheinbaren Analogien und ohne Anspruch auf Vollständigkeit"
"Chronicle review with apparent analogies and without claim to totality"

Leipzig, festival organization "with Adolf Hitler for the German people honor, freedom and right!" with "Confession of the professors and intellectual at the German universities and universities to Adolf Hitler and the national socialistic country signed by Dr. Friedrich Alverdes, Prof. Dr. Georg Anschütz, Prof. Dr. Adolf Bach, Prof. Dr. Johannes Behm, Dr. Edwin Blanck, Prof. Dr. Fritz Blättner, Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Blaschke, Prof. Dr. Werner Blume, Prof. Dr. Paul Böckmann, Prof. Dr. Otto Bollnow, Prof. Dr. Conrad Borchling, Prof. Dr. Gustav Bredemann, Prof. Dr. Ernst Broermann, Prof. Dr. Paul Brohmer, Prof. Dr. Alfred Burgardsmeir, Prof. Dr. Adolf Butenandt, Prof. Dr. Hans Freiherr v. Campenhausen, Prof. Dr. Adolf Dabelow, Prof. Dr. Hans Dachs, Prof. Dr. Gustav Deuchler, Prof. Dr. Rudolf Dittler, Prof. Dr. Heinz Dotterweich, Prof. Dr. Richard Egenter, Prof. Dr. Theodor Fahr, Prof. Dr. Rainer Fetscher, Prof. Dr. Ulrich Fleck, Prof. Dr. Hans Fliege, Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Flitner, Prof. Dr. Günther Franz, Prof. Dr. Hans Freyer, Prof. Dr. Hans-Georg Gadamer, Prof. Dr. Arnold Gehlen, Prof. Dr. Gustav Giemsa, Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Giese, Prof. Dr. Franz Groebbels, Prof. Dr. Hans Großmann, Prof. Dr. Rudolf Großmann, Prof. Dr. Konstantin v. Haffner, Prof. Dr. Helmut Hasse, Prof. Dr. Otto Heckmann, Prof. Dr. Martin Heidegger, Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Heinitz, Dr. Rudolf Heinz, Prof. Dr. Johannes Hempel, Prof. Dr. Paul Hesse, Dr. Max Heuwieser, Prof. Dr. Theodor Heynemann, Dr. Emanuel Hirsch, Prof. Dr. Edgar Irmscher, Prof. Dr. Eduard Jacobshagen, Prof. Dr. Fritz Jäger, Prof. Dr. Erich Jaensch, Prof. Dr. Maximilian Jahrmärker, Prof. Dr. Harro Jensen, Prof. Dr. Eduard Keeser, Prof. Dr. Erwin Kehrer, Prof. Dr. Egon Keining, Prof. Dr. Hugo Knipping, Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Knoll, Prof. Dr. Peter Koch, Prof. Dr. Ernst Kretschmer, Dr. Albrecht Langelüdecke, Prof. Dr. Gerhard Mackenroth, Prof. Dr. Johann Mannhardt, Dr. Friedrich Mauz, Prof. Dr. Kurt May, Prof. Dr. Martin Mayer, Prof. Dr. Waldemar Mitscherlich, Prof. Dr. Walther Mitzka, Prof. Dr. Hans Möller, Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Mommsen, Dr. Peter Mühlens, Prof. Dr. Paul Mulzer, Prof. Dr. Hans Naujocks, Prof. Dr. Friedrich Neumann, Prof. Dr. Arthur Nikisch, Prof. Dr. Herrmann Noack, Prof. Dr. Bernhard Nocht, Prof. Dr. Max Pagenstecher, Prof. Dr. Siegfried Passarge, Dr. Hans Petersson, Prof. Dr. Robert Petsch, Prof. Dr. Heinrich Pette, Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Pfannenstiehl, Prof. Dr. Wilhelm Pinder, Dr. Hans Plischke, Prof. Dr. Hans Preuß, Prof. Dr. Georg Raederscheidt, Prof. Dr. Otto Reche, Dr. Joachim v. Reckow, Prof. Dr. Eduard Reichenow, Dr. Ferdinand Reiff, Dr. Adolf Rein, Prof. Dr. Hermann Rein, Prof. Dr. Heinrich Remy, Dr. Joachim Ritter, Dr. Erich Rix, Prof. Dr. Josef Schmid, Prof. Dr. Ferdinand Sauerbruch (1937) Prof. Dr. Karl Thalheim (quotations: "the cleaning of the dt. Culture life of decomposing influences, that especially of the judaism went out, was for a renewal an unconditional prerequisite. Prof. Dr. Eugen fisherman: „...einen national country we erected, and we are there it up zubauen, a country out of blood and ground, a country out of the German people solidarity out Constructed on nationality, race and German soul. ..der leader has the size had to say: I the entire German people asks whether it stands with its will behind me; and tomorrow the entire will become Say German peoples: Yes! Yes!", Prof. Dr. Richard gulf: „...my Adolf Hitler for the German people honor, freedom and right." Prof. Dr. Martin Heidegger: „...keiner can stay away at the day of the testimony of this will Safely Hitler. " Prof. Dr. Emanuel Hirsch: „...aus that all now the last that I have to say: We have one Leader, who has always and every time this well known, that he as nothing then a tool of the creator All things knows itself. It knows, the providence lets do it the service, it stands over it and directs it. "Prof. Dr. Friedrich new man: "we lean every humanism off, that all peoples the same life Form forces.

[translate.google.com]


This article shows some of the intellectuals and professors who confessed support to Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist party. I would like people to the contrast to Dietrich Bonhoeffer [en.wikipedia.org] who was executed by the Nazis, whom Doktor Kittel supported. [www.bonhoeffer.com]




Truthtesty

To the Forum:


Prof. Dr. Johannes Behm is the 4th professor listed in my previous post. Evidence so far shows Behm was a supporter of Hitler and the Nazi party. More research is due on Johannes Behm(Göttingen) and the Nazi party.


Truthtesty