I stumbled across this site after reading the obituary of a man whose church was some tape church and I thought maybe it was a bob thieme franchise. So I tried searching for the organization but came across a wiki article which drew me back into the thieme world of horrors. The wiki article had two interesting tidbits which I did not know. One is that there is a recent biography of bob thieme which unearthed a lot of information which I had not known. The other was a reference to this website.

I did sample some of the postings here and was dismayed to see so much defense of thieme. I do classify him as a cult leader even if I am not prepared to define a cult. He is not as easy to dissect as some more extreme cults but I do believe that he shares a lot in common with megalomaniacs such as adolf hitler, Curtis lemay, and jim jones.

I was involved with thieme as a “taper”, book reader, conference attendee, and franchise attendee – and not just a mere tapers’ franchise but a live fx hookup. I never set foot in his church. I have observed the man in person and through media for 25+ years and finally began disengagement after the mind numbing repetitiveness wore down even my tenacity for sticking with something. After about a 10 year journey of escape I finally settled into orthodoxy (as in eastern).

After interacting with a broad assortment of people both Christian and non-christian I started to realize that the thieme way was not productive or conducive to maintaining a healthy social or psychological life. In time, I realized that thieme was pathological, disturbed, and unsound.

Some particular examples which caused me to turn away ( maybe I am in reverse process reversionism and don’t even care :-O ) were thieme’s extreme histrionics, his cultish theology, and amateurish history and alienation from culture in a perverse sense.

Some particulars were his near frothing at the mouth against socialists which went well beyond intellectual disagreement into hysterical ranting and ravings which truly reminded me of stories about hitler's demented tirades. Another trigger for turning away included his reference to blacks as niggers. You had to be at the Peoria bible conference c. 1977 – 78 to hear that one although there are a few choice tapes with that reference also. I was wondering what poor old sam ammons was thinking who was indeed in the audience when he made that classy statement. And then there were his perverted theologies such as no more baptism and that communion was merely commemorative.

Well as an orthodox Christian I can only tell you what a horror that is but at the time I thought I was getting “cutting edge” “doctrine”. Thank god that he rescued me from such lies. I also remember the harangues thieme luxuriated in when he claimed that those who suffered from alzheimer’s disease were reaping what they sowed from a life time of reversionism and “negative volition.” Perhaps he was right. (I didn’t say that).

One could go on and on about this fraud but I am so glad for those of you who have been able to escape and see what a wolf bob thieme is. By their fruits you shall know them. Unfortunately, his twilight does not seem to diminish the thieme bible business…..oh lord won’t you give me a Mercedes benz, my friends all drive porsches I must make amends, oh lord won’t you make me a super grace guy, I’ll kill all the commies and rebound all day….

To gene:

Tuthtesty: Where are your facts? You've lost the debate about Thieme, so you try to turn this into a debate about me. The moderator is correct - the subject is R. B. Thieme jr, not me. Don't debate me. Debate the facts. Anyone can read this website for themself and determine for themself what they think the truth is.


gene quote: Here you are. A non-Christian. And, you want to act like you are an expert on theological matters, no less?


Truthtesty: I am an expert on the truth. I find it quite easy to read Dr. Chafer. I would think anyone could if they wanted to face the facts.


gene quote: You will grab onto any source that works for your desired outcome. Yet? You think (as you revealed in the History Channel Forum) that Christianity is a joke.

Truthtesty: False. I follow the evidence, like any investigator. If you don't like the facts of Dr. Chafer, Doktor Kittle, Doktor Behm and others, then don't read them, but don't run to me because you don't like the facts. Read the facts for yourself. There is no need to debate me.


gene quote: So I am to debate with you on Christian theological matters that you can only seek out and quote others for answers? And, you can not collect your own thinking to make your own conclusions because Christianity is not reality to you?


Truthtesty: Ridiculous and false. I WILL TELL YOU WHAT I THINK, not the other way around. It's you that's coming apart, as Thieme is going to down in flames. And it's not about me. And like I said don't debate me, debate the facts. And if you'd take a moment to actually read what I have written you'd see my thinking is 100% collected and originally my own. Of course I sourced what Dr. Chafer said for PROOF that Thieme deviated from what Dr. Chafer said he(Chafer) wanted to produce.

gene quote: Why debate anyone like you on such matters? And? In a secular forum no less?

Truthtesty: Like I said don't debate me. One good reason for debunking Thieme here is because It is a wide open and wild secular forum where ALL TRUTH is respected. It is your problem if you can't handle the ALL the facts, not my problem for revealing the facts.


gene quote: You are not going to answer my question? That's all I need to know.

I am surprised that you won't, since you claim never to fear the truth.

Truthtesty: It's not about me. This forum is about R. B. Thieme, jr and

BeREICHah.



Have a nice Reich myth,



Truthtesty

To gene:


You bring no proof whatsoever about the Thieme subject, to this forum.



Truthtesty

To the Forum:

People have a right to know beforehand that Thieme used Gerhard Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. People have a right to know beforehand that Gerhard Kittle and Johannes Behm were Hitler's Theologians. People have a right to know beforehand what Dr. Chafer said about the blood of Christ.

Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol 2 p 110
Quote:
As has been observed, cults are now multiplying and their appearance is restricted to very recent times. These cults cover a variety of ideas all the way from Christian Science to Buchmanism. The latter as completely ignores the blood redemption of Christ as the former. While the former substitutes bodily health for the salvation of the soul, the latter substitutes consecration to God for a new birth by the Spirit. No less misleading is the modern doctrine that salvation is through faith plus consecration. Probably no religious movement is more bold than the I AM cult of recent months. It unblushingly announces by its blasphemous name that it freely embraces all that belongs to the original lie. Its title would have been equally appropriate had it been, I will be like the most High. Space cannot be claimed for an enumeration and analysis of all these systems, ancient and modern. No one can anticipate the number that will yet appear or the confusion of doctrine they will engender; but for each and all there is but one acid test, namely, What place does it give to the redeeming grace of God made possible only through the death and shed blood of Christ ?



Thieme
Quote:
1 John 1:7 "And THE BLOOD FROM HIS VEINS WAS A LITTLE BLEEDING FROM HIS HANDS AND A LITTLE BLEEDING FROM HIS FEET, AND IT DOESN'T SAVE YOU AND NEVER WILL"




Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. V pg 199
1 John 1:7 Quote:
"Those who have attained by His grace to the courts of glory are identified, not by their works, their sufferings, or their personal merit, but they are described as those whose robes have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. This is a figure calculated to represent purification as high as heaven in quality. It is termed a figure of speech, but it is not meaningless on that account; and so there is limitless reality in it. It may be understood only as Christ’s blood is seen to be the one divinely provided means whereby the soul and spirit of man may be purified. Cleansing so depends upon the blood of Christ that it may be said to be accomplished directly by that blood



That is just 2 examples of warnings.


Call me the least of men, but judge the facts yourself.



Truthtesty

Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:

People have a right to know beforehand that Thieme used Gerhard Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. People have a right to know beforehand that Gerhard Kittle and Johannes Behm were Hitler's Theologians. People have a right to know beforehand what Dr. Chafer said about the blood of Christ.

Kittel was the editor of the Theological Dictionary. He was not the one who exegeted the term "blood." He compiled and organized the works of excellent theologians, many of the past.


As far as Johann Behm being one of Hitler's theologians?

You are absolutely wrong.


As far as Johannes Behm's credentials? Impressive, would be an understatement.



From: [www.manchester.edu]



Behm, Johann (1686-1753)



1702 (Nov 1): Matriculation (Königsberg).

1710 (Aug 12): Magister (Jena).

1712 (Jan 7): AR, Lecturer in Philosophy.

1717: Assoc. Prof. of Greek (Königsberg).

1717 (Nov 2): Dr. of Theology (Königsberg), Assoc. Prof. of Theology.

1721: Full Prof. of Greek (Königsberg).

1728-51: 1st Librarian, University Library (replaced M. S. Grabe).

1733: Consistory Advisor (Samland).

1745: 7th Full Prof. of Theology (Königsberg).

1750: 6th Full Prof. of Theology (Königsberg).




Born (Apr 7) in Holland (Prussia), the grandson of Michael Behm (1612-1650, theology professor from 1639-50), who was in turn the son of his more famous father, Johann Behm (1578-1648), who taught in the theology faculty from 1609-48. After graduating from Jena, Behm toured through Holland and England. He maintained his full professorship in Greek alongside his professorship in theology. (Gause gives the more recent Behm’s birth-year as 1686.) [Sources: Hagelgans 1737; Arnoldt 1746, ii. 194, 217, 372, 468; Pisanski 1886, 319, 244-5; Gause 1996, ii.242; ADB; Wotschke 1928, 36-7]






Johann Behm had impeccable credentials.




I guess... he was a cult, too.

Quote
Truthtesty

Truthtesty: I am an expert on the truth. I find it quite easy to read Dr. Chafer. I would think anyone could if they wanted to face the facts.

Was Chafer correct in all he said? Is that what you are saying?

Quote
rrmoderator
Please don't begin a flame war here filled with personal attacks.

The subject is R.B. Thieme Jr.

FYI -- At times when dealing with some supposedly "bible based" groups it is meaningful to point out areas of controversy regarding their doctrines and teachings. This is not preaching per se, but rather reflects that some religious groups, which claim to be bible based, are really not, at least according to the overwhelming majority of established biblical scholarship.

For example the "Children of God" has historically taught women to become "Hookers for Christ."

Mormons teach that God was once a man and men can become gods, which is not a historical Christian doctrine.

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that blood transfusions should be rejected because the bible says so, when in fact they are referring to dietary laws, which have no relevance to blood transfusions.

And? What was Thieme doing in that type of category of Biblical abuse?

What he was involved with had to do with interpretation. The Baptists fight the Pentecostals. And, the Catholics depise Luther. And, they all fight the other's, too. Nothing's new in this matter.

As I showed in another post (pending). That the great German scholar Johann Belm who lived hundreds of years ago (whom, Truthesty claims was one of Hitler's theologians) had credentials that no one can deny. He had written many a commentary and has been used throughout Christiandom. He is the one who made the judgment on the Greek word for "blood," and its usage. Truthtesty still acts like Thieme thought of this all himself. He admits he did not. But, he keeps acting like Thieme did.


Thieme was once recommended to me by Professor Stan Ashby. He was retired when I met him. He had been Professor of Ancient Languages, Harvard. Stan did not always agree with Thieme, either. But, he recommended him to me. No one scholar is always correct.


And, one thing I will add which I find important. Thieme was never afraid to admit error and to correct a previous teaching. I found that refreshing in light of the pastors who will not admit they have been wrong at times.

In Christ, GeneZ

Quote
rrmoderator
GeneZ:

You are here as a Thieme defender and an apologist.

And your attempt to attack those that criticize Theime should be seen in that light.

If you had terminal cancer? And a doctor cured you, where others could not? And, without major expense?



Would you be an apologists for this doctor if he received criticism from others who reject his methods? Who tell others he is a quack?



Then I am an apologist. Because I have been greatly helped by "Dr. Thieme's" teachings. He was the only pastor my Jewish father respected and would listen to. My father thought Thieme had an open mind. Believe it, or not.

Yet, Thieme's treatment was never intended for everyone. For, like with cancer, not all will respond to the same treatment.


I do not advocate that everyone follow what helped me - and still to this day - helps my soul have peace.


And, one other IMORTANT thing. One that really baffles me.

Colonel Thieme has now been retired for several years. He has Alzheimer's disease. He no longer has a church. What is TT's point in all this? What is he trying to stop?


If TT wants to stop this terrible cult? Why is he not attacking Robert Thieme's son who is now pastor of Berachah church? After all, he was his father's protege. It makes no sense. The teachings for the most part have not changed. But his personality is so different that it would look silly to call him a cult. That's why.


This I do know.. I have seen in my years more than one pastor attacked by a disgruntled member of his congregation. I lived in NJ for a season. I attended a small church where the pastor was very kind and smart, and always traditional in his approach. Nothing like Thieme's personality. When I heard his family was moving to another state? I found out that his family had been receiving death threats. Calling him a cult would not work in this case.


So be it.

GeneZ:

OK.

You are here to defend Thieme no matter what.

Understood.

But please stop putting your comments in bold black.

Frankly it's self-important and rude.

Try to exercise some restraint.

To gene:


Where is your proof that Johann Behm was the author? Anyone can search a name on the internet. Here's where the information you displayed on this forum is from. [www.manchester.edu].

So where is your proof that Johann Behm exgeted the article? Where's your proof gene?

I never said Johann Behm was one of Hitler's theologians. This is another of your false accusations against me. I said Johannes Behm was one of Hitler's theologians and he was.



Truthtesty