Messianic Churches
Posted by:
varg
()
Date: March 03, 2007 02:38AM
Quote
rrmoderator
You are not making any sense.
Jews are not a race, blood type or simply a culture.
Jews are a religion.
Christians are a religion.
You cannot be two religions at once.
See [www.culteducation.com]
You can't be a Christian for Krishna or a Mormon for Mohammad.
If someone converts to another religion they should identify with the faith of their choice not their former religion.
rrmoderator, I realize this thread is almost 2 years old, but the French Archbishop of Paris proclaimed that he remained "Jewish" at his ordination to the bishopric. By Jewish he meant he retained his culture, as his parents were slaughtered in Auschwitz. Does his new religion make him less Jewish or non-Jewish as an Atheist Jew? A Jew is a Jew for life if his mother was Jewish according to Orthodox Judaism. You sound anti-Christian, the Messianic Jew who posted above sounds normal compared to this quote.
Messianic Churches
Posted by:
varg
()
Date: March 03, 2007 02:43AM
Quote
rrmoderator
messnc:
You are going over old ground that has already been addressed repeatedly on this thread.
Jews that convert to Christianity and are involved with "Christian churches" are apostate Jews and no longer simply "Jews."
Rather than call themselves "apostate Jews" they could simply identify themselves as "Christians."
Jews who have converted from Christianity to Judaism would likewise be considered "apostate Christians" not "Christians for Judaism."
They typically would call themselves simply "Jews" or Jews that coverted from Christianity.
There is no such thing as a hybrid religious group, such as you wish to suppose and there is no historical or genuine basis for it.
Jews are Jews and Christians are Christians.
You are only offering the same failed arguments.
Let's move on.
No such thing about a hybrid religious group? ROFL. Almost [i:16ca17ec13]all[/i:16ca17ec13] religious groups are hybrids. Especially the Middle-Eastern ones. Catholicism, the first Christian religion, founded by the Apostles, was founded by Jews, and can claim Jewish heritage through apostolic succession.
Islam was founded by a merging of heretical Christian doctrines with some guy calling himself a "Prophet".
Judaism was probably a conglomerate of secular and religious movements of its time which developed to what it is today. Orthodox, Reform or Conservative. Christians can claim Jewish heritage because we share the WHOLE Torah with Jews, and many Jewish doctrines and beliefs. Christians weren't even called Christian till sometime after the movement began, as it was Jews who were these "Christians". It wasn't till the movement which later developed into a religion spread to Antioch, in modern-day Syria that the people who followed Jesus of Nazareth were called "Christian".
In summation, most, if not all religions are a mixture of other religions history/culture and background. Judaism isn't just a religion (as there are Jews who believe in NO religion), it is a culture, a historical identity and state.
Messianic Churches
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 03, 2007 06:43AM
Varg said,
Sorry, but whether the bishop thinks he is Jewish or not, he is in fact a Roman Catholic with only a historical Jewish family background. That would be the correct way to describe his history and status.
Jews are a religion, not simply a "culture."
Someone can no more identify themselves as "Jewish" by "culture" than a Christian can.
And someone that denies the existence of God is not Jewish, they are correctly identified as an atheist with a Jewish family background.
Orthodox Judaism and its authorities consider Jews that become Christians, apostates. And no Jewish authority has ever said otherwise.
You say,
The apostles you mention had a Jewish background, but were considered apostates, by Jewish authorities at their time. Their beliefs were rejected by Jews and Jewish leaders, and not that long thereafter the faith they chose was identified as a seperate and distinct religion, which essentially largely grew and flourished through the peoples within the Roman Empire and later Europe, that had no Jewish background.
You say,
Frankly, there is no such thing as a "Messianic Jew," there are just Jews, as defined by the organized Jewish communtiy. And it isn't up to you or others outside of the organized Jewsih community to define what is "normal" for Jews, Judaism and/or for Jews to practice or believe.
If someone wishes to leave Judaism and convert to another religion they have that right, but then lose the right to call themselves "Jews," without qualification.
Again, there is no problem historically and factually with the title "apostate Jews," for those Jews that convert to another religion.
It is really hubris to say the least, when people outside of the organized Jewish communtiy presume that they somehow have the right to impose their definitions and/or understandings upon a faith that they are not a member of.
Quote
the French Archbishop of Paris proclaimed that he remained "Jewish" at his ordination to the bishopric. By Jewish he meant he retained his culture, as his parents were slaughtered in Auschwitz. Does his new religion make him less Jewish or non-Jewish as an Atheist Jew? A Jew is a Jew for life if his mother was Jewish according to Orthodox Judaism.
Sorry, but whether the bishop thinks he is Jewish or not, he is in fact a Roman Catholic with only a historical Jewish family background. That would be the correct way to describe his history and status.
Jews are a religion, not simply a "culture."
Someone can no more identify themselves as "Jewish" by "culture" than a Christian can.
And someone that denies the existence of God is not Jewish, they are correctly identified as an atheist with a Jewish family background.
Orthodox Judaism and its authorities consider Jews that become Christians, apostates. And no Jewish authority has ever said otherwise.
You say,
Quote
the first Christian religion, founded by the Apostles, was founded by Jews
The apostles you mention had a Jewish background, but were considered apostates, by Jewish authorities at their time. Their beliefs were rejected by Jews and Jewish leaders, and not that long thereafter the faith they chose was identified as a seperate and distinct religion, which essentially largely grew and flourished through the peoples within the Roman Empire and later Europe, that had no Jewish background.
You say,
Quote
You sound anti-Christian, the Messianic Jew who posted above sounds normal
Frankly, there is no such thing as a "Messianic Jew," there are just Jews, as defined by the organized Jewish communtiy. And it isn't up to you or others outside of the organized Jewsih community to define what is "normal" for Jews, Judaism and/or for Jews to practice or believe.
If someone wishes to leave Judaism and convert to another religion they have that right, but then lose the right to call themselves "Jews," without qualification.
Again, there is no problem historically and factually with the title "apostate Jews," for those Jews that convert to another religion.
It is really hubris to say the least, when people outside of the organized Jewish communtiy presume that they somehow have the right to impose their definitions and/or understandings upon a faith that they are not a member of.
Messianic Churches
Posted by:
varg
()
Date: March 06, 2007 05:36AM
Quote
rrmoderator
Varg said,Quote
the French Archbishop of Paris proclaimed that he remained "Jewish" at his ordination to the bishopric. By Jewish he meant he retained his culture, as his parents were slaughtered in Auschwitz. Does his new religion make him less Jewish or non-Jewish as an Atheist Jew? A Jew is a Jew for life if his mother was Jewish according to Orthodox Judaism.Quote
rrmoderator
Sorry, but whether the bishop thinks he is Jewish or not, he is in fact a Roman Catholic with only a historical Jewish family background. That would be the correct way to describe his history and status.
Sorry, but according to organized Jewish religion of today, he is and will be a Jew until his death. This is because his mother is Jewish -- the same goes for any other Jew.
Messianic Churches
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 06, 2007 08:32AM
varg:
You said,
This is at best a misleading statement.
His only status as a Jew would be specifically as an apostate Jew.
If you mean to say that the bishop has that status, i.e. as an apostate Jew until his death, you are correct.
But any other Jewish status has never been recognized by any segment of the organized Jewish religion today or historically.
You said,
Quote
according to organized Jewish religion of today he is and will be a Jew until his death. This is because his mother is Jewish -- the same goes for any other Jew.
This is at best a misleading statement.
His only status as a Jew would be specifically as an apostate Jew.
If you mean to say that the bishop has that status, i.e. as an apostate Jew until his death, you are correct.
But any other Jewish status has never been recognized by any segment of the organized Jewish religion today or historically.
Messianic Churches
Posted by:
AJG
()
Date: March 26, 2007 04:39PM
I once attended a Messianic Synagogue in Hove, England. I only began attending because some friends of mine used to go on Saturday mornings/afternoons. I was never a member.
Orginally the synagogue was based in Portland Road, Hove in the south of England. Then they moved Sommerhill School and then to a church-like building about five minutes' walk from Hove station. Last time I passed the building was closed down.
The whole things was run by a guy called Philip Sharp; it ended (at least as far as I know) amidst allegations of financial irregularities and my friends (who had left by the time it was in the third building) claimed he was having sexual relations with more than one of the women in the group.
One of the women I knew personally (though not very well) though I had no contact with her after she became heavily involved with the group. The last thing I heard was that she became pregant.
Can anyone tell me anything else, or confirm or deny what I have just said what I have just said.
Orginally the synagogue was based in Portland Road, Hove in the south of England. Then they moved Sommerhill School and then to a church-like building about five minutes' walk from Hove station. Last time I passed the building was closed down.
The whole things was run by a guy called Philip Sharp; it ended (at least as far as I know) amidst allegations of financial irregularities and my friends (who had left by the time it was in the third building) claimed he was having sexual relations with more than one of the women in the group.
One of the women I knew personally (though not very well) though I had no contact with her after she became heavily involved with the group. The last thing I heard was that she became pregant.
Can anyone tell me anything else, or confirm or deny what I have just said what I have just said.
Messianic Churches
Posted by:
brainout
()
Date: March 31, 2007 06:21PM
[www.aish.com]
The above URL is about projected demographic reduction in American Jews due to intermarriage. Idea is, intermarriage produces non-Jewish progeny.
Thoughts?
The above URL is about projected demographic reduction in American Jews due to intermarriage. Idea is, intermarriage produces non-Jewish progeny.
Thoughts?
Messianic Churches
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 31, 2007 11:02PM
brainout:
What the link reflects is consistent with previous definitions on this thread, i.e. if someone is not identified with a Jewish denomination (practicing Judaism) and has converted to another identified religion (e.g. Christianity), that person is not "Jewish."
Many Jews are not affiliated with a specific synagogue or denomination, but relatively few have converted to an outside religion, e.g. the so-called "messianic Jews," which are actually evangelical Christians.
A Jew that has converted to another religion outside of Judaism and its denominations is an "apostate Jew," according to all authorities within the organized Jewish community.
Other information at the link you have offered is not relevant to this thread.
What the link reflects is consistent with previous definitions on this thread, i.e. if someone is not identified with a Jewish denomination (practicing Judaism) and has converted to another identified religion (e.g. Christianity), that person is not "Jewish."
Many Jews are not affiliated with a specific synagogue or denomination, but relatively few have converted to an outside religion, e.g. the so-called "messianic Jews," which are actually evangelical Christians.
A Jew that has converted to another religion outside of Judaism and its denominations is an "apostate Jew," according to all authorities within the organized Jewish community.
Other information at the link you have offered is not relevant to this thread.
Messianic Churches
Posted by:
brainout
()
Date: March 31, 2007 11:14PM
I wanted your opinion specifically. I didn't know what to think. Thank you.
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