I've been thinking over the posts in this forum all day, reading the great articles in RRI on Messianic Jews, etc. I see what you all mean about the problem of various groups who are Jewish by race, also claiming to still be Jewish when believing in Christ. It's a multi-faceted problem, and no matter WHICH way one 'sides' on it, the enemies of the Jews will exploit that.

I want to be careful here not to offend. But for those of you in the channel who are very upset over the "messies", as a Christian who has a fair understanding of the New Testament I can attest [u:e8d9b35f04]it also says[/u:e8d9b35f04] that a Jew who believes in Christ is also no longer Jewish (as you define Jewish). So the Jew who believed in Christ -- an apostate Jew, technically -- such a person who believes the NT is from the Lord will honor it and trouble you no further.

But what I don't want to do, is provide citations to back up that attestation in open forum, lest some be offended by it. So if anyone wants backup, please pm me.

[i:e8d9b35f04]If this post is in ANY way even remotely offensive, please -- rrmoderator -- [u:e8d9b35f04]please[/u:e8d9b35f04] do not approve it.[/i:e8d9b35f04] I'm rabidly pro-Israel and pro-Jewish; to me, anti-semitism is worse than being -- i don't know, whatever is the worst thing.

If you look back on this thread, Jews are not a "race," but rather a religious grouping composed of many races like Christians.

There are black Jews, white Jews and Asian Jews.

former Jews that have chosen to become Evangelical Christians are simply Christians. No one can be two religions at once.

Hello moderator:

You state that Judaism is a religion, and that Jews are allowed to determine who are Jews and who are not. Interesting that Messianic Jews that revere the Torah are not counted as members of the Jewish nation - though they clearly once were by your own admission - but Conservative Jews, Reform Jews, Humanist Jews (http://www.shj.org), and even outright atheist Jews are? Incidentally, it is curious that a great many Orthodox Jews also do not consider the other Jewish movements to be Jewish in the religious sense, but only in the other senses that you seem to deny. Such happens to be a huge religious, social, and political issue in Israel especially, but perhaps that is a discussion for another day.

But since Judaism is a religion that Jews alone are allowed to define, is that same privilege afforded to Christians? Suppose Christians were to say, for instance, that Christians that do not believe in the Trinity doctrine or in the God - inspiration, literal truth, and inerrancy of scripture are not Christians? Would the very same Jews that would rise up in vehement opposition to such Christian dogmatism - since indeed Jews have found theological and political alliances with such liberal Christians to be quite profitable - be the same ones that are similarly dogmatic against Messianic Jews (while simultaneously accommodating Humanistic and atheist ones)?

Perhaps my line of question is loaded, but I perceive it to be fair.

Two thousand years ago, after the destruction of the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem, the Jews were dispersed to all 4 corners of the earth and we settled in many foreign lands. Before the exile, Jews all originated in the Middle East and we are semites descended from the same man, Abraham our father, as the Arabs are.
In fact, when my current landlord who is a devout Moslem first met me, he asked me "What do you know about Abraham, our father?" I told
him some of the stories in the Midrash and he was happy that he was harboring a relative and a scholar of the Torah.

It was obvious to me that the previous pastor of the local church was given some turoring on my religious history and definitely on how to deal with Jewish people from a missionary perspective. He used buzz words like "completing [your] Judaism" etc. Obviously it wasn't anything new to me because I heard it all before many years ago from Jack Hickman's cult.
Also, at the local Bible study they used a package by a group called "Message to Israel" and we studied a book called The Names of God. Those names were in Hebrew. I knew there were some mistakes as per the English translations and I know Hebrew names of God that aren't in the book.

The ancient historical records of the Torah indicate that Jews are descended from Abraham and his grandchild, Judah. Furthermore, Levi and Judah are the only 2 shevot (tribes) left among the 12 tribes as 10 were lost.
To my way of thinking, and of course Rick agrees with this analysis, this is the correct way of viewing the issue. Apostate Jews Jews are not welcome in Israel, that's true but in the USA they or we in my case, are still considered to be "Jews".
Furthermore, Rick's helping the Reform movement codify its beliefs as per "who is a Jew" is non- binding in the State of Israel as Reform Judaism is not seen as a valid form of Judaism in the State. Orthodox Jewish law or Halacha, is considered the only valid form of Judaism and is the only form that can define the "Who is a Jew" law and only Orthodox Jews can preside over weddings as Israel does not have secular marriages.
As I lived in Israel for 5 years and went to University there, I am very much familiar with the religious conflicts there. I got caught in the middle of the conflict there when I went to a secular job agency in Tel Aviv with a kippah and a beard. It's a long story but those are the facts.