You are correct, in your comment about the Israeli Supreme Court. I was mistaken. It is interesting, however, that a person of Jewish heritage who rejects Judaism, and instead holds atheistic or non-religious views will not be denied citizenship under the Law of Return.

A good article on this is found at:
[www.bpnews.net]

I do, however, stick to my contention that the Jewish people are unique, in that their heritage transcends religious bounds. The fact that one can be a Jewish Atheist, or a Jewish Humanist, hold that the Torah is rubbish and superstition, and still be accepted as a Jew by the State of Israel seems to suggest that I'm not alone in this belief.

Arcecat: You said: "I mean if Judaism is still your heritage why can't you continue to keep praciticing the Jewish rituals that don't conflict with
you becoming a Christian?"

In some cases, continuing to practice Jewish rituals would conflict with a new found Christian faith. While I hold that one can identify themself as a Jewish believer in Christ as the promised Messiah, I find the use of Judaic terms like "shul" and "rabbi" to be somewhat confusing.

canuck:

The key defining issue for the Israeli courts would be has the immigrant embraced another religion, such as Christianity, Buddhism, Islam etc.

The courts don't seem to question what a potential resident does not believe.

Many Israelis are not actively involved in a synagogue.

It seems unlikely that immigrants declare themselves "atheists," "humanists" etc. which is not a specific religion with proscribed beliefs and affiliations.

Your opinion that Jews are somehow "unique" and not like other religions, is of course your opinion. That opinion appears to have some sort of theological basis and is not an objective fact.

The link you posted is to a source that likewise is expressing an opinion, and one that expresses a considerable bias.

The author of the article is Jay Sekulow, the former general counsel of an ogranization called "Jews for Jesus," which targets Jews specifically for conversion to fundamenatlist Christianity and was founded by an ordained Baptist minister.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Sekulow himself has been widely criticized and is considered an operative for the so-called "Religious Right.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Sekulow is not a meaningful or objective source for factual objective information on this subject.

Judaism and Jewish identigy is correctly defined by the organized Jewish community and its leaders, not former Jews such as Sekulow with political and religious agendas.

Raina, that was a very interesting post. Thank you for sharing that information.

It seems to me that someone of Jewish heritage who rejects his faith entirely has travelled a greater distance from his people than someone of Jewish faith who accepts the Torah as true, but also accepts Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah of scripture. If the Israeli State truly believed that to be Jewish was merely a religion, and that someone who does not believe in Judaism was not a Jew, then they would consistently bar non-adherants from the Law of Return.

What one doesn't believe is just as important as what one does believe.

Canuck:

It really doesn't matter what your opinion is on this issue, though I suppose you can have one.

The determination of the issue isn't something for Christians to make a decesion on, at least in any official sense. It is a matter of Israeli law and Jewish religious law,as determined by Jewish denominational authorties.

The issue of Jewish identity is not in any way determined by Christians.

Just as certainly Christian identity would and could not determined by Jews.

Each faith determines the parameters of its own identity.

FYI--"Raina" is not Jewish and has no authority to determine anything regarding Jewish identity. His or her so-called "shul" is actually a Christian church. It is very dishonest to say otherwise and historically incoherent.

No branch of Judaism has ever historically considered former Jews that have converted to another religion "Jews" without qualification. They cand only be considered apostate Jews.

This is my first day here, but is this typical of moderating on this board? To bash others belief systems? I am a Christian and a Biblical Studies student. My goal is to study Judaism as I firmly believe Christianity is an extension of Judaism that became westernized to a negative degree. I teach my children about Biblical holidays and explain what Biblical Judaism is about. The line of beliefs for most Messianics is that they are continuing Judaism in the way God intended through the Messiah Jesus Christ. It is not longer Biblical Judaism in the sense of the Old Testament, but it is Judaism.

I'm appalled at the lack of respect the moderator has for those posting to this board. Is this normal? Is there room for respectful dialogue here?

The rules of this message board include don't preach or proselytize.

See [board.culteducation.com]

Christians are Christians and Jews are Jews, each religion is mutually exclusive with its own defining beliefs and doctrines.

There is no such thing as a "Jewish Christian" any more than a person who has converted from Christianity to Judaism would still somehow be a "Christian."

Jews are not a race, nationality or simply an ethnic group, but historically and practically defined as a group of religious adherents.

It is the exclusive right of the organized Jewish community historically to determine the parameters of Jewish identity. Not someone who has converted to another religion, or others outside Judaism.

It is disrepectful to Jews and Judaism not to recognize these simple facts and insist that somehow outside parties or former Jews have a right to share in determining who is a Jew and/or what is Judaism.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Each faith has an exclusive right to determine the parameters of its own religious identity. This would include Southern Baptists, Roman Catholics, Methodists, Quakers etc.

No historic estalished Jewish denomination has ever recognized people with a Jewish background that have embraced an outside faith's belief system and docrines as simply "Jews" without qualification and the Israeli courts have upheld this denying such people the right to return as Jews to Israel.

They might call themselves apostate Jews, or Christians, Muslims, Buddhists with a Jewish family background, but they are not simply "Jews" without qualification.

That's black and white and totally taking the heart of faith away from these posters...including myself.

Different message boards have different purposes.

This message board is not for preaching.

People here discuss controversial groups and movements, some called "cults," without preaching their beliefs.

You may feel more comfortable at another message board where participants do preach their beliefs and that's the focus of interest.

I guess my problem is that I can't extract my beliefs from who I am. I cannot commit to answering someone without sharing my beliefs. That seems so foreign and cold. I just can't understand...you're probably right...this probably isn't the board for me. I'm going to stick around because of one particular thread, but I won't post anymore.

I'm just not a just the facts kinda girl...plus the fact that my beliefs are my facts, so even if I was a just the facts kinda girl, you would probably deny that my facts were even true facts...so... :wink: