Jews for Jesus is just one of the hundreds of different congregations of Messianic Jews. They are the most outspoken and zealous, but in no way do they represent the beliefs shared by all Messianic Jews.

I'm rather confused to your assumptions of the basics of Judaism. I think Messianic Jews do in fact believe in the basics of Judaism.

Perhaps what you mean to say is that Messianic Jews believe in Yeshua as the Messiah, and that in itself goes against the basics of Judaism. This is where the topic becomes debatable.

The reason Messianic Jews don't call themselves Christian is because that would imply that they have to become another religion to worship Yeshua. They don't believe this is so. They believe that the Jewish faith should have changed at the first century AD to ecompass Yeshua as the Messiah into the Jewish religion. While about a million Jews at the time did believe this, they were persecuted and martyred and the idea never cought on. Now it is slowly picking up popularity again.

The way we look at it, there are Jews and Messianic Jews, who we consider to be the incorrect form of Judaism. The way Messianics look at it, they are Jews and we are Non-Messianic Jews. They believe that ours is the incorrect form.

Finally, when you say that the Messianic Jews or "Messies" as you like to call them spend each year trying to lure innocent Jews into their lair, you are definately being a religious bigot. At least have the decency to classify the alleged congregation that is doing this (Jews for Jesus), not the entire religion of Messianic Judaism. It is composed of hundreds of congregations, most of which mind their own business and respect others beliefs.

jgh7:

Yes you are "confused."

So-called "messianic Jews" are evangelical Christians.

Apparently, you are evangelical and therefore you wish to recognize them.

However, it isn't up to you or other Christians to set the parameters of Jewish identity. This is the exclusive right of Jews, through the organized Jewish community.

It is at best hubris and some might observe a form of "religious bigotry" to attempt to impose your theology upon another faith.

For about 2,000 years Christianity and Judaism have been and remain seperate and distinct religions. There is no such thing as a hybrid, either historically or rationally.

Whatever "messianic Jews" believe is of no consequence, given that they have left Judaism to become Christians.

Whatever rationalization you and/or apostate Jews might attempt to use, this would be based upon your own theological assumptions. And again, that theology would make you Christian not Jewish.

rrmoderatory:

Everyones opinions should be given the same value. Don't count your opinions or the opinions of the majority of a faith as the facts.

I don't think many evangelical Christians observe Shabbat, circumcision, traditional Jewish holidays, and keep kosher, or read out of the Jewish Torah. Many Messianic Jews do. The reason they don't consider themselves Evangelical Christians is because they believe Jewish customs and religious procedures tie closer to the ways of Yeshua than do Christian procedures. Messianic Jews believe that Christianity has slightly departed from the way of life that Yeshua lived. Judaism has stayed closer. That is why they insist on keeping their Jewish identity while still acknowledging Yeshua as the Messiah. Is any of this making rational sense to you?

Finally, it is your opinion that Messianic Jews have left Judiasm to become Christians, and quite frankly it has no more value or importance than the opinions I give, so don't treat yours as if they do.

jgh7:

Again, neither you or any apostate Jews are in a position to define anything regarding Jews, Judaism and/or what is or is not "Jewish."

This is the exclusive right of the organized Jewish community.

Please understand that I served during the 1980s on the Union of American Hebrew Congregations (UAHC) national committees regarding "Cults and Missionaries" and "Interreligious Affairs." My focus regarding "missionaries," was to help write the guidelines concerning "messianic Jews" for my denomination.

The UAHC, often called Reform Judaism, is the largest denomination of Jews in the United States.

I also was a member of the professional staff of Jewish Family Service and the Bureau of Jewish Education and taught a course for high school students regarding cults and missionaries.

My duties for the Jewish community also included serving as the designated Jewish representitive on the Religous Advisory Committee for the Arizona Department of Corrections, which is the state prison system.

Part of my responsibility as the Jewish representitive on the committee was to determine, with the consultation/cooperation of Jewish authorities in the state, who was a Jew and who was not, for the purpose of claiming certain religious rights, such as a religious diet.

Though there is some disagreement about who is a Jew, between Orthodox, Reform and Conservative Jews, there is no disagreement about who is not a Jew.

All branches of Judaism and the Israeli courts, have definitively ruled who a Jew is not. That is, a Jew is not a person that believes Jesus (as you say "yeshua") is the messiah. That is a belief that defines a person as a Christian.

You may believe whatever you want.

But you have no right to determine the religious identity of another faith group and your opinion in this area is of little importance and carries no weight.

Dear moderator,

I'm impressed with your work. As you mentioned, it's quite a strong statement that, although many differences of opinion about Judaism exist among Jews of different observance levels, the one thing on which we all unequivocally agree is that we do not worship Jesus or any other idol (not even Elvis). Considering the sometimes vast differences that can occur between very traditional Jews and Reform Jews, that one agreement (among others, of course) is quite firm.

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But you have no right to determine the religious identity of another faith group

That's the crux of the entire issue. If anyone did it to Christians, you can just imagine the uproar.

Think about a female body. It possess a few of the same body parts as men: nose, eyes, arms, legs, and so forth. With the logic that the messies use (they accept or share "some" of Judaism, but not all), a woman can therefore say that she is a male, simply because she shares some of the same biological components.

If messies reject one of the most defining aspects of Judaism and still insist on calling themselves Jews, then females can lack one of the most defining aspects of males and still call themselves males. Isn't this all absurd?

rachel1965:

Yes. Good analogy.

And the same evangelical Christians that support and promote the view that so-called "messianic Jews" are somehow Jews, without qualification, would never accept Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses as "Christians."

Pretty ridiculous and very presumptious to pretend that you have the right to determine the parameters of religious identity for another faith group outside of your own.

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However, it isn't up to you or other Christians to set the parameters of Jewish identity. This is the exclusive right of Jews, through the organized Jewish community.

A Jew is defined as a blood descendent of the tribe of Judah. All rabbis will agree with that although because of the dispersion from the Land there have been debates over who can claim Jewish heritage. Typically it is a person who has at least a Jewish mother. This makes them a nationality, contrary to your previous post. However, because the nationality of the Jew was given a direct injunction by Moses to observe certain religious rites "Judaism" is also a religion.

I am a Jew, I was born into a Jewish family, and I also believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah of Isreal. This does not make me a Christian. ALL observant Jews (the non-obervant ones are the ones who reject their religion, but they are still Jews by heritage) believe that a Messiah is promised in the Tanakh. The only difference in my belief is that I believe the Messiah ben Yosef (the servant Messiah) has already come in the person of Yeshua. (Jews believe that a Messiah ben Yosef will come prior to the Messiah ben David.) It is simply a disagreement between myself and certain Jews (all jews, disagree on many things; that's part of the religion! :lol: ) regarding who the Messiah is. I still observe the mitvot and I am still a Jew.

Christianity was started among Jews, but when the temple was destroyed the new gentile believers (believer in the G-d of the Jews and the Jewish Messiah) began to mix greek pagan religion with the belief in the Messiah, which turned into modern day Christianity. One of the interesting Christian doctrines is that when you die, if you believe in Jesus you will go to Heaven. But the Bible teaches that the New Jerusalem will descend from heaven and G-d will dwell with us. The idea of ascending to heaven to live with the gods is a greek belief that has been passed down from those first believing gentiles. Just an example of the fusion of two religous thoughts.

cep[/quote]

epitts75:

You can only call yourself an apostate Jew.

But you are not a "Jew" without that qualification.

Any rabbi, Orthodox, Conservative or Reform, will tell you tha and without exception. They will not disagree with this analysis.

Jews are not a "nationality," but from many nations.

Jews are not a race, but from many races.

There is no meaning to being a "blood descendent," since you have negated that by converting to another faith and are therefore outside of Judaism.

There is no such thing as a hybrid religion, which includes two faiths together, such as believing in the New Testament, but somehow claiming to be an "observant Jew."

And the beliefs you have detailed only further define you as someone who has left Judaism and again would be considered an apostate.

Please understand that the apostates of a faith have no right to determine the parameters of identity for their former religion.

Are you willing to exclude all of our brothers who continue to believe that the late Rebbe was/is Moshiach?

I've been thinking more about what you said and wanted to add this:

The sum of what you have said is this: I am Jewish (actually, a Levite, so necessarily one by descent) -- albeit, an "apostate" one. The real question is, "Apostate from what?" You say that the Reformed, Conservative and Orthodox rabbis would all agree on this. So, which commandment would they say I have broken? Probably, "Have no other gods before Me." I, of course, disagree with their judgment. If David can call Messiah, L-rd, so can I. Likewise, I would call those rabbis in the Reformed and Conservative movement apostate for not condemning homosexual behaviour. They obviously disagree on my interpretation of Torah. The sum of this is, "Who cares?" Look, I would rather obey G-d than men. So if you would like to try to convince me that Yeshua is not the Messiah, I will try to convince you that homosexuality is abhorred by G-d. It only matters what G-d thinks.

Have you actually thought about why you believe what you believe? From your posts, I would think the answer to that was "no". Surely you can do better than all the cliches. The answer to life, the universe and everything is not in Tovia's tape series. :D