@ CosmicConnie:

Abe-Hicks have a rather large multimilliondollar business going, with many followers. Even though Mrs Hicks is a horrible actress when she fakes going into a Abe-Trance, the Abe-Hicks couple ain't stupid.
So of course they are not going to risk their own necks openly for James Ray, as James Ray might get convicted. Abe doesn't want to get tarred with James Ray, just like all the other LGAT Gurus.
The quote on Twitter came up, from some type of private audio link for Abe-Hicks followers. So someone would have to track that down, and transcribe it.

the quote was...
@lizmarshall "Abraham does not condone punishing/tarring of @JamesARay" [forum.culteducation.com]

Abraham-Hicks don't condone the punishing of James Ray, according to Liz Marshall.
And you can bet if Mrs Hicks was challenged, she would say the "she" has no opinion by Abe is the one doing the talking, and he is from another dimension.

There was not really any over-reaching in this thread, as those other Twitters about Abe-Hicks were also in the thread.
There was some speculation, as why Abe-Hicks would say anything at all, and some ideas on that. Self-interest, blaming the victims.

There has to be some speculation at times when dealing with these complex issues. The classic technical Skeptical or pure journalistic approach is woefully insufficient.
The Carl Sagan Baloney detection kit is fantastic, but its not enough when dealing with willful organized aggressive planned deception, where the information is actively concealed, and someone is under high-pressure. That is an LGAT seminar.
Abe-Hicks and James Ray are NEVER going to come clean with the total facts, even the authorities are after the James Ray group for removing documents.

So yes, one has to take incomplete data at times, the best one can gather quite rapidly, and make a strong judgement. (not absolute, but provisionary).
And in terms of the depths of these LGAT sects, its also important to use strong language and EMOTION to counteract that programming in one's mind.
Purely "rational" analysis is not enough. Simple fact-gathering is not enough.
Too much is actively concealed, and there is too much deception from the perps.

Look at Byron Katie, its literally impossible to gather many hard facts about her, because she deliberately purged her Story of facts! The main facts have come from former members, and from previous books that were bought back and personally destroyed by her husband Stephen Mitchell.

So just for clarity, yes, there has to be some intelligent speculation at times, and some judgements need to be made without being able to access all the facts, as they are concealed, and will always be concealed. (even a court won't get at many of them with a process lasting years and costing millions).
Also, one needs to deliberately use powerful emotion to strongly dispute the lies and fabrications of programming from these sects and cults, to cut through the fog of lies and distortion. And one also needs to work quickly and think on their feet.
Those are some of the ways to counteract the powerful persuasion tactics being used by the LGAT groups and sects.
As shown in the beginning of this thread, knowing the tactics and techniques of James Ray, allowed him to be identified as dangerous years before anyone died, on the moment he was on the Oprah show. Many of these cons can be identified in minutes, if one has the training.




As far as the white collar crime from LGAT Gurus...oh man. Where else you gonna send them?
The ONLY thing somewhat stopping some of the white collar crook LGAT Gurus is the fear of JAIL. That they understand. They get it.
Stealing hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars through fraud is very violent. It ruins peoples lives, there are suicides.
Probably only 1 in 1000 of those guy get caught anyway, if there were more jail sentences, then it might cut back on what they do. Might.
The greed is too great.
They see the money to be taken, and they take it.
The big LGAT Gurus who are smart, there are some, actually hire experts to make sure everything stays just on the right side of the letter of the law. Only one reason they do that, they prefer living in their mansion and travelling, and not going to jail for fraud.
They understand POWER. Until you see them in action first hand, its hard to understand how they operate and think.
The fear of jail works extremely well on many of them. They get it.

Quote
Cosmic Connie

However, there's one little point I am still trying to clarify. I would love to know for certain if Abe-Hicks are in fact actively doing anything on behalf of James Ray (which is what I thought some folks were implying here recently, and which I thought might have been over-reaching). Does anyone have exact quotations from "Abraham" about the James Ray matter -- e.g., something Esther would have said at that L.A. workshop that some tweeters mentioned? Is there a source where I can listen, view, or read transcripts myself without having to pay $ to Abe-Hicks? I saw the quotation from someone on Twitter who said Abraham does not condone "tarring" of James Ray... but that's really not the same as actively advocating for him, and, again, it was on this point that I expressed doubt.

When following the thread on Liz Marshall's Twitter page I came across a "life coach" named Christina Merk, who cited the Abraham comments at the L.A. workshop. Someone asked her, "so how does abraham feel about [James Ray's] wilful disregard for human life/depraved indifference?"...

Christina answered: "that is definitely part of the vibrational mix for sure ... as were beliefs/actions of the ppl who died too. big co-creation."

To another Tweeter, Christina wrote, "it was all a complex vibrational co-creation. a vibrational match in different ways for different reasons."

(These exchanges took place on March 5 of this year.)

So I get that some Abe-Hicks *fans* are doing the deflection thing, either by paraphrasing Esther/Abe or putting their own spin on the matter, but I would love to get quotations straight from the con artist's/artists' mouth(s). In fact, the standard Abe-Hicks line seems to be that everything, good or bad, that happens to a person happens b/c that person's vibrations are in tune with the event. But again, that doesn't seem to be singling James Ray out; it's just the usual Abe-Hicks rationale. As the Holocaust went, so goes the Death Lodge. It's all the same to Jerry, Esther and Abe.

....

As for jail, I simply don't know if our prison system as it now exists is the best solution for non-violent/white-collar criminals, even notorious serial scammers. They're just burdens on the taxpayers that way, and when they are locked up there's little to no hope of their making money to pay restitution to their victims. Yet I also realize that more often than not there's no way to make sure they pay restitution to victims anyway, since, as has been discussed here and elsewhere, so many of the scammers hide their assets in so many devious ways. I really don't know what the answer is. As with so many other things, I'm still thinking about it.

James Ray reveals the LGAT scam right there. Usually, they conceal it in other language, but in this case its spelled out.

A Purpose
A Vision
As stated, the first two are the initial salespitch, and they get into peoples life "meanings". That is the Big Claim, the set-up.

Then it moves into drawing people into the system.

A Mentor - start focussing on the Guru as your Leader in your mind.

A Practice - the start of the indoctrination process, with covert tech inserted inside the Practice (TM meditation, The Work)

A Coach - upselling to a system of more personal indocrination and sales, costing $100 hr of course.

A Group - getting lured and Love-Bombed into the group/sect, using local meetings and conference calls, its the start of Social Influence.

A Retreat - getting even more deeply involved in a LGAT seminar environment for a weekend, then 9+ days at a hotel or in the wilderness.

That is the exact same process used by Byron Katie, Royal Way, SGI Soka Gakkai, Sai Baba, TM, Scientology, and basically any group or sect you can think of.
They start with a big pitch, inserting the Leader-Mentor in your mind.
Start a Practice, which is always based on deception with covert persuasion tech embedded in it. (like Scientology Auditing, the Byron Katie Work)
Connect the person with a Coach, which is someone from the Group who is a trained salesperson and recruiter, which draws them into a small local group.
They then get upsold into the LGAT Seminar Retreat, where the the big guns come out and people get locked in with powerful persuasion techniques.

Of course, none of that is needed. Its just a way to draw people in, to serve the Guru's needs, which are based around extracting money and free labor from the seeker.
But that is a good list, which exposes the techniques of the process of persuasion and LGAT luring.

Quote
Stoic
[rumorrat.com]

And today, James began what he promises will be a series of talks in which he will share “seven fundamental principles that I have found to literally impact my life in so many ways, in fact probably change my life.”

Follow along now…

A Purpose
A Vision
A Mentor
A Practice
A Coach
A Group
A Retreat

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2010 03:34AM by The Anticult.

There is another method that follows James Ray's seven fundamental principles of group indoctrination.

The Sedona Method and Release Technique upselling scam. [forum.culteducation.com]

They pitch you can End Suffering, like Byron Katie does.
A Purpose
A Vision

They upsell you to Lester Levinson, Larry Crane, and other salesmen and scam-artists.
A Mentor

They sell the Sedona Method bait & switch.
A Practice

When it doesn't work as advertised, they upsell you to a Coach, who upsells you to the Sedona Group LGAT's and Retreats, to extract as much money from you as possible.
A Coach
A Group
A Retreat

The key to all of this of course, is to make sure the Practice does NOT work as advertised, as if it did work, then you would put yourself out of the Guru business.
The Practice has to SOUND like it could work, with lots of Testimonials, but does NOT work, but makes the person blame themselves for not 'releasing' hard enough, and to buy more Coaching and Seminars. Repeat until dead broke.

So the key is to have a Practice that doesn't work, of course.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2010 04:17AM by The Anticult.

Several news outlets are picking up on the public outrage and backlash against James Ray's Twitter messages:

[www.azcentral.com]

"Ray's Twitter posts are attracting attention: curiosity, outrage, and some second-guessing about whether it is a smart thing to do while awaiting trial.

John Sears, a Prescott attorney involved in the defense of accused murderer Steven DeMocker, another of Yavapai County's major cases, said making such public statements before a trial is risky.

Sears said they could end up as ammunition for prosecutors, a reading on the defendant's attitude.

"My basic rule is to try the cases in the courtroom," Sears said."


There was also someone yesterday advertising self-help books etc for sale on Ebay, Dwoskin, Sedona Method etc as 'Not James Ray related' ----so perhaps there is a growing awareness that he is not the best self-helper to be associated with right now.

This is my first post on this site. I've been following this thread since the Arizona deaths, trying to make sense out of this whole situation. Your perception and explanations have helped me a lot.

My mom used all sorts of "New Age" (50 years ago they called it Metaphysics) mumbo jumbo to keep the family in line. She was also bipolar (untreated), with various other mental problems (also untreated). My childhood was your average nightmare. My mom believed prayer, (specifically "HER" prayers) could heal. She told my doctors, her friends, and my teachers, that my celiac symptoms, allergies and autoimmune problems were "all in my head". The fact that I came close to dying many MANY times had nothing to do with anything. It was always my fault I was sick ... she told me was doing it to myself. "If I acted well and believed I was well, I would be well!" (Fake it until you make it.) That I even survived with my brain relatively intact is amazing.

When word of "The Secret" for came out I was really put off by it. But when Oprah (I can't believe I'm admitting this) did her specials on it, I decided to look at the video. I started researching the various people who took part in the video, checking out their web pages and reading their books. Eventually I read James Ray's "The Science of Success" and was bothered at how much of it was about material things, money, etc. But, and here's the kicker, so many people ... smart people ... were talking about "The Law of Attraction", I started to second guess my whole take on it.

I suffer from autoimmune disease and severe allergies. Some days I can walk without a cane or walker, most days I can't. I was in a wheelchair for years. I've been told to get my affairs in order so many times, by so many different doctors that it's sometimes difficult thinking about living a normal life let alone planing for the future. I wanted to be healthy, have a good life, thrive. (Still do!) I thought what do I have to lose?

From then on I was a woman with a mission, making affirmations, reading everything I could get my hands on, forcing myself to walk, etc. I feel like such an idiot. In 2007, I heard that James Ray was going to be in my area for a "Free Lecture" so I went. I wanted to thank him for reminding me I'm more than my body or my illness.

It was the first time I walked into a building without my allergy mask, first time I stood in line for any length of time (we waited almost two hours ... they were very late), first time getting out in public in years. Mr Ray put on a good show, way too materialistic for me, but I wasn't there about money or getting rich. Neither my husband or myself could afford the retreat they were selling.

So when the lecture was over I stood in line with my walker to say thank you. When Mr Ray looked at me I felt like rolling up into a ball. I'm fat and I've seen that look before, from people who think fat people are useless pigs. I barely got five words out, when he asked me if I'd signed up for the weekend. I told him I didn't have the money. Like before, he shut me up.

James Ray
"I'm going to do you a favor" he said, "Don't ever say that again, the universe is listening."

Me
"But I don't have any money right ..."

James Ray
"I TOLD YOU NOT TO SAY THAT!"

Me
"But it's true."

James Ray
"Then borrow it!"

Me
"I have no one to borrow from."

James Ray
"You mean to say you have absolutely no friends who can loan you money?"

Me
quietly ... "No, my friends are struggling to."

James Ray
"Do you want to be a fat slob and a failure for the rest of your life?"

The brutality of his words, the sound of his voice, took my breath away. The people standing next to me were shocked by his words.

Whispers from people around me
"Did he just call that woman with the walker a fat slob?" "What did she say?" "Look at that lard assed bitch, James is right, she's a nothing."

I wanted to die. I have no idea how I made it back to my car. I'd been feeling so good, but at that moment, all I wanted to do was run outside and jump off the parking structure. I cried for hours afterward. All I'd wanted to do was thank him.

That was 2007, and I'm still here, alive and kicking. I located new doctors, new treatments, physical therapy, walking, different foods. Life is still hard, but it looks like I'm going to be around for a while now. Not because of some new age secret, or law of attraction ... but a lot of hard work.

When I heard about the people who had died at the sweat lodge, I realized that could have been me. Had Mr Ray shown a modicum of compassion, allowed me to pay back James Ray International for their weekends ... I'd have gone ... no questions asked, because he told me it was safe. He told me I could be cured, he had cured himself ... others ... anything we wanted was ours for the asking.

I'm an educated woman, I should have known better, especially after what I endured as a child. I'm stunned and amazed that I could fall for his vision of things so completely. I thank God he treated me so rudely that night, and I was able to see him for what he was ... a self absorbed bully who's all flash and no substance.

I may be fat, I may even be ugly, but I'm no longer broke and don't owe anyone any money. Oh yeah, I don't lie, I've never hurt anyone, never stollen anything and I'm very much alive!

Thank you so much for this website. You guys are truly amazing.

Jeannika

Jeannika:

Thank you for your informative post.
As you have alluded to, you dodged a bullet.
James Ray's bigger salespitch, is a type of Love-Bombing, but he switches to abusive tactics in person.

When James Ray did that ATTACK on you and your self-esteem, he was doing a ruthless persuasion/sales tactic. He rapidly picked up on visual cues, and then went for the jugular.
He then immediately tried to use force and coercion to COMMAND you what to say..."I TOLD YOU NOT TO SAY THAT!" ...and to order you to borrow money, and give it to him.

He was trying to use HARD-CLOSE sales techniques, to get you to sign a contract quickly.
As you have mentioned, there are people who will fall for those techniques, as they have not been trained, yet, in how those types of forceful "directive" sales techniques work.
A key part, its for the exploitative salesperson to look for a vulnerabilty in a person, and then try to hit them where it hurts. Its a technique, used by ruthless exploiters and con-artists.

James Ray did that to many many people. He did that to Colleen Conaway, he lured her in, used every advanced persuasion tactic on earth on her, and convinced her to load up thousands on her credit cards, and give James Ray all that money. Even after she died at his seminar, he kept the money for the seminars that occurred after her death.
He's kept everyone's money for all the cancelled seminars he collected for in advance. NO REFUNDS.
He's stolen all of their money, and he couldn't care less, he knows they can't get it, as his company has been drained of all its assets.

James Ray is a user, an exploiter, a con-artist, and much worse.
He rapidly scans people looking for a vulnerability, and then he pounces straight for the jugular vein, like a predator.
Your testimony shows exactly how he does it.

The good news is that people can learn how those techniques work, and then they don't work on them.
For a trained person, if James Ray tried to do that technique, before his abusive sentence was out of his mouth, a water bottle may have "slipped" and dumped all over his spray-on tan and fancy suit.
A trained expert can walk right up to an exploiter like James Ray, and explain his techniques RIGHT AS he is doing them on people, and up to 50% of the people will be able to see the scam in play, and walk away from getting scammed.
The exploiter will usually fly into a rage when that happens.

A gag order has been granted in the case, though this does not seem to apply to Ray, only to the attorneys and their assistants. I think this is directed against the whitepapers that were issued by Ray's counsel early on, though my reading of US legalese is not reliable:

[apps.supremecourt.az.gov]


Thanks, Jeannika, for writing of your experience with James Ray, and glad that you are seeing through this rubbish. It is a sophisticated form of bullying and as Anticult says, once you understand how it works on you it becomes easier to spot, interrupt and avoid in the future.

It is a very carefully crafted illusion, James Ray has nothing at all to offer except the mistaken notion that he is some kind of superior being with some 'arcane knowledge' he is willing to sell. We've seen the results of that, unfortunately in this case.
His 'arcane knowledge' is cribbed from the fantasies and power dreams of other conmen who have gone before him, and has no basis in fact.

Thanks Jeanika for your very powerful story.

The more examples we have of Ray's sick, evil behavior, the better.

What Ray is trying to accomplish with is tweets and videos is to keep himself firmly placed in the image of a wiseman just trying to help. Unfortunately, with some people this might be succeeding. As your story illustrates, nothing could be further from the truth.

As far as the gag order, I think it should alpy to him as well. It would be great if more stories like yours got out into the mainstream media to confirm who this guy really is.

Jeannika,
Thank you. I am glad you dodged that bullet.

It's a pity the judge in Ray's case doesn't believe in Ray's teachings. If he did, he would've said "What? You can't raise 5 million to get your sorry ass out of prison? I order you to stop talking like that. Don't you have any rich friends? Borrow it, you - [insert Salty Droid expletives here]."

Jeannika, thank you so much for bearing witness.

This mind-over-matter crap is pervasive in American culture, even amongst those who have not been tainted by New Wage stuff--so it can be readily exploited by entrepreneurs who have learned sophisticated marketing and rhetoric--and hide these tactics.

Here is a mind over matter story from read John Callahan's biography, 'Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far on Foot.'

Callahan became quadraplegic after a car accident in 1972. He wrote that his being in a wheelchair makes him a magnet for touchy feely healie types. One time a well meaning type offered to cure him by prayer. Instead, Callahan said, 'Could you fix my wheelchair instead? Its broken and it cost me thousands of dollars.'

Another time, he was in the hospital, and some nice girls offered to pray for his healing by releasing the demons in his spine that kept him from walking.

Quote

At one point in the book, Callahan tells of hanging out with another man, Toby, who was a spectacular amputee. Toby had been a LRP (long range patrol) soldier
in Vietnam, was grievously injured and both his legs were amputated, including
the hip sockets.

Callahan said: 'They fit what was left of him into a a prosthesis called a 'bucket'---a fake set of hips and legs that sat in a wheelchair permanently dressed in corduroy pants, shoes and socks.' (Callhan, Dont Worry, He Wont Get Far on Foot, page 93)

One night, Callanhan and Toby, both in thier wheelchairs, were at the local tavern.

'One type anybody in a wheelchair meets fairly frequently is the citizen who flatly disbelieves you are really crippled' Callahan tells us.

'To these guys it is all in the mind.'

'One afternoon we were accosted by a Mount Angel college sophmore who had had a few (beers) and was clearly affronted by the very sight of us. He came over and told us off.

"You guys are just fakers! If you really wanted to, you could use the power of your minds to get up out of those chairs and walk!"

"Yeah, I suppose you're right", agreed Toby. He put his hands down on his wheels and slowly lifted all that was left of his torso straight up out of his pants.

'With his elbows locked, there were four inches of clear air above his belt buckle.

'The college kid's eyes bulged and he picked up his beer and just moved out, while the room full of regulars just exploded with laughter.' (Callahan, page 96)

In social settings that are not controlled and scripted, by someone's entourage, people like Toby are out there to cut through the crap.

But leaders of these 'Power of the Mind' guru-entrepreneur set ups, take care to arrange that everything is very carefully staged. Many probably take care and make sure, with the help of their entourages, that no one like Toby could ever sneak in to one of their events and administer the kind of reality check that Toby did at Tiny's Tavern that night.

(Or the kind of reality check that Jeannika administered to JRay. He was cruel to her because without even intending to, she'd revealed how powerless JRay actually was and is)

And if someone like Toby did slip in, the event would probably be edited off the tapes and removed from the video footage.

Footnote

'To these guys it is all in the mind.' ****(Callahan describes an incident that took place in the 1970s. This 'all in the mind' bias has been around for decades for it is a way to avoid facing our own aching vulnerabilty as embodied human beings who can go from being ambulatory, to wheelchair bound in the blink of an eye. This 'its all in the mind' is a defense against anxiety at life's potential brutality. It apparently offers a toe hold that can be readily exploited by the kinds of groups being discussed on RR.com)

[forum.culteducation.com]

Sadly, if one stays in this mind over matter New Wage environment, one may delay getting appropriate treatment until too late. Then the mainstream medical profession cannot help and bang--yet another story circulates that 'doctors are no good'.

This account, to my eyes, reads as such a scenario. The lady had an episode that seemed like enlightenment. It does not appear that she got at that time, a thorough work up by a neurologist to rule out any pre-existing condition.

Years later, she began to get physical problems for which she persistently sought care from alternative minded healers who thought in terms of herbs and 'energy'.

She resisted hospitalization until her own chiropractor insisted. The sad results can be read here.

[74.125.95.132]

My mothers eye doctor told her that the most heart breaking sessions he had with patients were the various religious groups that believed in the power of prayer and avoided doctors. Eventually, the person would come to him, already blind or on the point of blindness, and Dr L would have to tell them, 'Your condition is too far advanced. I wish you had come in years earlier.'

So they'd go back to their groups or churches and say, 'The eye doctor didnt help me, its Gods will I am blind.'

Deep down, many pseudo spiritual entrepreneurs despise vulnerabilty and human frailty. They want to believe this can be willed away, and it taps into a very strong and naive strain in the American psyche, that anything can be willed away.

They seem to hate and fear weakness, whether it is financial, social or any illness that cannot be willed away.

The tip off is how they yap about empowerment all the time.

They also hate being ordinary, so they make themselves seem special, and coo that anyone who follows their program can become special too.

What these folks are terrified of is their own human frailties and they hate any reminder
of our shared human condition, any reminder of our essential creatureliness.

J Ray needs to be reminded that we are all, even Olympic athletes, temporarily abled.

And we cannot always trust 'experience'.

When I had influenza and double pneumonia, I tried to deal with it by not taking anything to break my fever.

My fever thermometer indicated that my body tempreture was going as high as 104 plus degrees.

Yet during those times, I felt I was freezing, even though that thermometer read that I was hot. So, I stupidly rolled in blankets and laid next to the heater.

What I later learned is that when body temp rises during fever, the immune system produces cytokine chemicals, and these cause the tempreture regulating system in the brain to misread signals--so you feel cold, not hot.

In John Krakauers book, Into Thin Air, a description of the disaster on Mt Everest in 1996 in which many people died, he wrote of how one dead person had gone crazy with hypothermia and was found to have thrown off his clothes--his freezing brain
experienced itself as 'too-hot-remove-clothes.'

Experience cannot be trusted and has to be tested against other measures, such as fever thermometers

And we cannot be healed by any leader whose biggest secret is that he or she fears and despises weakness.

Because such a leader will fear and despise us for being weak enough to feel we need healing--and need them to heal us!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2010 10:44PM by corboy.