Thanks for that corboy -- exellent post.

I have heard many of those things to "doctors are bad" "scientists are materialists" (implying something bad), and on and on. "Scientists can never measure vibrations and psychic energy". "Anything is possible if you believe an pray enough".

Like you said these stupid concepts are accepted in the mainstream and are reaponsible for killing many.

Jeannika: Powerful story. Thank you for sharing it. Excellent comments from everyone else as well.

A few pages back, the thread focused on conversational hypnosis/covert hypnosis, etc. Here's a new product that Joe Vitale has been promoting the heck out of lately: [advancedcoverthypnosis.com]

If you buy before April 4. your "investment" will only be $577, less than half the regular price of $1295! (Although some "knowledgeable people" have valued the program at $5,000!)

From the sales page: "World-renowned hypnotist Igor Ledochowski researched little-known secrets of the unconscious mind from as far back as Ancient Egypt… and traveled throughout world (including to the heart of the Peruvian Jungle)… to bring you the most ADVANCED, EFFECTIVE form of CONVERSATIONAL HYPNOSIS on the planet today."

Damn, that Peru must harbor lots of secrets. Didn't James Ray find some of his secrets there as well?

'Damn, that Peru must harbor lots of secrets. Didn't James Ray find some of his secrets there as well?'

The expert from far, far away. Robert Ringer made himself into an uber-salesman using this technique, although I believe that he operated in commercial real estate rather than the unmapped territories of the human mind.
He was looking for a new angle to make what he was flogging exotic and desirable, quite a feat to turn commercial real estate, office blocks etc which are utilitarian, into objects of desire.
His method was to build a mystique around himself as the expert from far, far away. He had a very classy flyer made--similar to those sent out annually to stockholders in blue chip companies--that showed the mystery and majesty of earth, no mention of commercial real esate. Then even if he was already in the same town as his prospect he would travel out in order to travel back and arrive from far, far away, complete with entourage, to begin the negotiations.
He was favouring his prospects, usually hard-bitten businessmen, with his presence and expertise from far, far away, not flogging them some mundane office block or shopping mall.

If you look at Peru it does not seem to have benefited overmuch from the 'arcane knowledge and power' so many seem to have found there. Strange that this power seems to work only on bored and relatively wealthy western seekers and not in the favour of the holders of this power, the Peruvians.

BTW, I was offered Igors tape set for $97 some years ago. I found this offer in my inbox yesterday, from Mark Joyner:
"Hey ------

It's scary ... the formulas for convincing people
to buy your stuff is very close to the formulas
for brainwashing:

[products.simpleology.com]

This "Catalog of Esoteric Psychological Lore" will
absolutely blow your mind.

Mark

Mark Joyner
#1 Bestselling Author of "Integration Marketing

All these 'experts' are using the far, far away concept to bamboozle, they have traversed and explored the unmapped regions of the human mind, at great danger and expense to themselves, natch, to return and bring you these great gifts and powers, at a low, low cost of: 'the one-time price of $197... but only if you act now'

And you have to act now or this wondrous offer from far, far away will be withdrawn, Cialdini's scarcity tactic. I have no doubt that it will pop up elsewhere shortly for $97, or $2997, the pricing is pretty much arbitrary. If its a real turkey as far as sales go it might even be offered free as a teaser to something else, so the value is pretty arbitrary also.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2010 02:59PM by Stoic.

In case anyone is tempted by the offer I linked to above, and it is a very temptingly composed sales letter, please note that all this information is available elsewhere, usually in a book from your library or from Amazon at about $20.
If you closely observe these salesmen, whose real skill is in crafting these very seductive sales letters, all this information is free in front of your eyes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2010 03:24PM by Stoic.

Something that Jeannika mentioned, the switch that Ray made from Love-bombing to abuse, reminded me of a pattern that all abusive people seem to follow.
The charmer you marry who turns into a nasty piece of work once you've tied the knot, the manipulative friend who is all over you when they want something but can't be bothered to call on your birthday---its not so much the behaviour that sucks you in as the fact that the behaviour is so unpredictable.
This unpredictable behaviour functions to keep you off-balance, unable to formulate a decent response or a clear picture of what kind of person you are dealing with, and so leaves you vulnerable to repeated attacks.

I grew up, as did so many of us, in just such an environment of inconsistent behaviour patterns. It felt, for many years for me, like having no solid ground under my feet. And it left me vulnerable to anyone using such inconsistent patterns to gain advantage because the very inconsistency was what I recognised as familiar, it was home ground.

What made a difference for me was associating for a number of years with someone who did have a clear and consistent idea of what behaviour was acceptable or not and who made clear the discipline it was necessary for me to aquire for myself in order to put some solid ground under my feet.
This person also made a very strong point that the belief system I chose to adopt was of no interest to him, he taught the same discipline to Sikhs, Muslims and Christians with no problems of contradiction. It was the behavioural discipline that made the difference, not the belief system.
In my case, the new disciplined behaviour-- which is the matter in the 'mind over matter' metaphor-- was the thing that changed the mind, the thinking processes.


Something that gives some creedence to this 'behaviour first' model is that there is some interesting work being done with children who are born with poorly developed brain function and do not learn to walk or talk in the normal developmental pattern. Using intensive exercise patterns repeated over time therapists are, to some degree, able to rectify some of the poor development of these children. They are, through intensive bodily movements, in effect helping the undeveloped areas of the brain to repattern or rewire itself in a new developmental direction that allows the child to learn to walk and talk eventually.

I am not suggesting that all things can be overcome but that change is often possible without recourse to the nonsensical belief systems peddled by Death Ray and his ilk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2010 05:15PM by Stoic.

Some very important points must be clarified here.
The Peru stuff is copying Carlos Casteneda. Carlos Castaneda and James Arthur Ray [forum.culteducation.com]


But this is important, very important. People without training in this area get duped by this constantly.

There are 2 kinds of so-called Conversational Hypnosis. There REAL kind that can work when applied by someone who knows what they are doing, and the SCAM kind.
The real kind, the average person does not even notice.

The crap, shit, trash and garbage being promoted by Joe Vitale and Igor Ledochowski is the SCAM kind. Joe Vitale, ironically, basically knows almost nothing about this kind of hypnosis, even though his company is called Hypnotic Marketing.
This is how it works.
They take the idea of "covert hypnosis" and turn it into the same mystical mish-mash as The Secret or 100 other things, simply as a marketing trick. They exaggerate, fabricate, lie and bullshit, to make a sales Big Claim, simply to charge a higher price.
So the alleged "covert hypnosis" they are marketing, actually has almost nothing in common with real conversational persuasion.
Its like buying a product from China that says toothpaste on the label, when in fact its lead-paste inside the tube.

This is the same SCAM done by almost everyone out there selling Influence and Persuasion seminars. They sell garbage techniques, or maybe 10% of the tech, meanwhile they are DOING some of the REAL Influence tech on you, without your awareness. This was covered in the thread about Dave Lakhani, that is what Dave Lakhani tries to do as well.
Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation [forum.culteducation.com]

Its very very unfortunate that so many people fall for this, and get misdirected on this subject. Some get misdirected into taking "Influence" seminars, and get scammed for 50K.

Others in the media or bloggers, make the fatal and lethal error of equating the SCAM covert persuasion with the REAL covert persuasion. The problem is that they don't know what the real stuff is, as they haven't had the training. So they think the SCAM stuff is the real stuff, and then conclude it doesn't even exist, that its a scam.
That is very dangerous as it sets people up.

What is needed is training in the REAL covert persuasion. There are many people who do that, and it can be quite subtle to the point that people literally cannot perceive it. Byron Katie is an example, and there are many others.

Hope this makes sense to people.
In these types of seminars and processes the overt "content" is mainly a distraction. When they are talking about Ancient Peru, The Secret, or whatever, that is simply the "content" while the REAL persuasion is a meta-level process the target is not aware of.

But here's the trick.
They do the same thing with Influence and covert persuasion seminars.
They tell you they are teaching you "covert hypnosis", but in fact they are NOT. They are marketing a sham and garbage techniques as "content". Meanwhile, the REAL persuasion techniques are not being taught, but are being DONE TO YOU without your awareness, to upsell you to more programs and seminars.
Its very tricky for people to see, only those with training can see that.


There are other seminars that teach how to do that, but those are not mass marketed. Most people only figure that out after they have been scammed for 100K.
So again, the SHAM covert hypnosis techniques being "taught" by guys like Ledochowski are mainly being used as a distraction. Meanwhile, the REAL techniques are not taught, but are being done to you without your awareness, unless one has the training and insight.
Of course Igor Ledochowski and others know that, they are doing it, they know it!

So please, do not equate REAL conversational hypnosis with the SHAM garbage being sold by these scam-artists.
The real stuff is a derivative of what was done by Dr. Milton Erickson in a therapeutic process, which was then perverted into a sales technique.
The scammers then took the words "covert hypnosis" to use as a marketing tactic to sell things that have absolutely nothing to do with the real processes.

Their "covert hypnosis" has as much to do with the real stuff, as the New Agers "Quantum Physics" has to do with REAL quantum physics. It has nothing to do with it, its a complete distortion, and just uses the same 2 words. Sadly, the public is tricked by that too. Word labels are powerful, which is why they use them.


Igor Ledochowski has been discussed here before in these threads [forum.culteducation.com]
Experts in misdirection [forum.culteducation.com]


These are some of the endorsements for Igor Ledochowski, if they are real people and not just fake names. Of course anyone endorsing that Igor Ledochowski material should be avoided like the plague.

But Clifford Mee needs to be checked out very carefully. If those are actual hypnosis NLP credentials, then he knows what is being sold is snake-oil, and that the REAL covert persuasion is implicit and not explicit in that junk-material.
Clifford Mee's claims about being a "certified" Ericksonian "hypnotist" need to be checked out. Certified by who specifically?
Cetainly not from the Erickson Foundation [www.erickson-foundation.org]
Are those real credentials, or more fabricated bullshit?


Clifford Mee - Editor & Publisher
Certified Master Ericksonian Hypnotist
Certified Hypnotherapist (American Board Of Hypnotherapy)
Accredited & Certified NLP Master Practitioner
Certified Success Life Coach

Steve Roehm
Practicing Hypnotherapist
Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Shawn Mehew
Hypnotherapist & Psychologist
Bristol, United Kingdom

Robert
Practicing Hypnotherapist
Orange County, California, USA

Helen Sharon Pollard
Business Owner
Pittsfield, MA, USA

David Taylor
Hypnotherapist Trainer
NLP Practitioner Trainer
Scotland, UK

Phillip Wiltshire
Medical & Dental Hypotist
Corte Madera, CA, USA

Susan M. Brugman
Medicine and Medical Hypnotherapy
Lakewood, CO, USA

Scot Luedtke
Hypnosis Student
Fresno, California, USA

Quote
Cosmic Connie
A few pages back, the thread focused on conversational hypnosis/covert hypnosis, etc. Here's a new product that Joe Vitale has been promoting the heck out of lately: [advancedcoverthypnosis.com]

If you buy before April 4. your "investment" will only be $577, less than half the regular price of $1295! (Although some "knowledgeable people" have valued the program at $5,000!)

From the sales page: "World-renowned hypnotist Igor Ledochowski researched little-known secrets of the unconscious mind from as far back as Ancient Egypt… and traveled throughout world (including to the heart of the Peruvian Jungle)… to bring you the most ADVANCED, EFFECTIVE form of CONVERSATIONAL HYPNOSIS on the planet today."

Damn, that Peru must harbor lots of secrets. Didn't James Ray find some of his secrets there as well?

This PDF contains police interviews with about 15 of the Spiritual Warrior participants. It makes quite harrowing reading:

[www.kpho.com]

For those following the minutiae of this case. a further pdf on disclosure filed by the prosecutors.

There is some speculation that this indicates that the prosecutors are looking further afield than JAR as the lone defendant in the trial, based on the contents of Megan's back-pack but I find that a bit of a stretch.
Megan would have kept the entire paperwork on all the attendees in her role as Director of Operations so the disclosure of docs relating to the victims taken from her back-pack is not too significant to me. I might wish it otherwise............but I think we have to trust that those doing this as a day job are not relying on wishful thinking to to the best job possible:

[apps.supremecourt.az.gov]

I found this article online, written by a retired Milwaukee policeman with an ongoing interest in conmen, which goes some way to explaining why such pervasive fraud is so lightly treated by the enforcement agencies:
[fraudtech.bizland.com]

The writer, Dennis Marlock claims that fraud is the US no 1 crime, yet it is routinely ignored. He provides a reasonable explanation of why this is so.

A new lawsuit filed against JAR by three people who paid in advance for events and are now saying his business was fraudulently conducted:

[www.mercurynews.com]