Justin Loew, to me, the "highly speculative science and engineering" is a bit of a turn-off. I would prefer some accepted/established science to feel comfortable about shelling over hard-earned money to a salesperson shilling for a questionable firm. I have no doubt they are well funded.

Your story of a beetle being frozen and unfrozen is an intentional misdirection handed to you by the salesmen of the cryonics lab to steal your money. Many insects contain a natural "anti-freeze" to allow for freezing and re-animation. They are not warm-blooded, so you can see the biological importance of this being evolved to protect the species, especially in colder climes.

MY question was the freezing and successful re-animation of MAMMALIAN subjects.
I think unless this can be established, your money will be wasted in the hopes of a re-animated "my name is Justin Loew and I remember my life" future-life.

Thank you for letting us know that this is an Alcor facility you toured, btw. Alcor is the pinnacle of the cultic cryonic movement and an abuser.

Cults and destructive groups and orgs do not follow one's pedestrian imagination that an invisible sky-god must be present (or futuristic outfits, chanting, or secret handshakes). You hope (like many of us) for a future after death. Religion gives people comfort in this great unknown...how different is Alcor from any religion that gives hope for life after death? The difference is in a standard religion when you die you stop paying...with Alcor you pay forever. Great business model. I should buy stock...but they are not public or they would be forced to open their books...nevermind.

Most destructive or damaging organizations come more like a lamb than a lion. How else to better separate one from his/her money? Follow the money.

Has Alcor provided you with a balance sheet? How much of the "take" do Alcor's executives pocket by way of compensation? We would all be very excited if you could make public all the financial information that Alcor resists releasing.

As one much wiser than I once told me; "Keep an open mind...just not so open that your brains fall out".

Be careful...

I hope you are here to open(mind) yourself to different viewpoints and not just to toe the corporate line. Close-minded trolls are a dime-a-dozen.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2010 09:36AM by Sparky.

Anon1:
Harris has a long questionable history in the so call science of cryonics or should I say cult. … He is also the person mentioned in the Johnson book FROZEN about torturing animals.


COMMENT:

Actually, let’s be precise on the last, which is all I have space for in this message. There is nothing about torturing animals in the book FROZEN. In the book, Johnson heads to California in February, 2003 to my lab (which is not Alcor) and is basically surprised there with what he describes as a pointless and undocumented animal euthanasia. But no suffering is described. However, the more time goes on after the book is published, the more the animal in Johnson’s tale suffers. In the process of hawking his book FROZEN in Oct 9, 2009, Johnson told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer’s that the animal was “crying and whimpering,” but that he’d done nothing about it for fear of death:

“I had grave concerns because of what I heard about these deaths [of people]. There was no way I was going to say one word. […] No, I -- like I said, I was scared to death. I could not think straight. I -- I didn't want to have them draw a line straight to me and start doing experiments on me. Who knows? God knows.”

The only thing wrong with this picture is that Johnson had only been hired by Alcor for a bit over 3 weeks when this happened (12 days in the book, but he has the experiment date wrong by 11 days, giving it as Feb. 10 when it was actually Feb. 21). Too early for these murder rumors, even by his own account. And he came to California specifically for the animal surgical procedure training, which he got. see [alcor.org].

Afterwards, he had a beer with all of us, and if he had any problems, he didn’t mention them. Nobody else (there were four others, including myself) saw any sign of pain at any time (the animal was intubated and on general anesthesia). We have extensive notes, and Johnson is not the only person we trained at the same time (the training had no effect on the experiment, by the way, which was done for other reasons entirely). We also have Johnson’s signature and date on the non-disclosure agreement for the day. So who is telling the correct story? Johnson probably doesn’t do much animal surgery, but for the book, he forgot the vascular surgery he assisted with, that day. However, he didn’t forget to brag that he knew how to do femoral cutdowns for cryonics (not a paramedic procedure) on page 153. He taught this using a manikin, at a seminar outside Prescott, Arizona, which ended March 6, just 2 weeks after the training in California. At the time, he had assisted surgically in a minor way in exactly one cryonics case, a few days before. [alcor.org] And no, I didn’t find any evidence on either occasion that I saw him work that he’d picked up surgical skills someplace else.

A month after the incident, March 20, 2003, Johnson gave an interview to Alcor’s magazine which is very cheerful for somebody who is in fear of their life.

[www.alcor.org]

Highlights here: [www.alcor.org]

He also went on to work for Alcor for another 5 months after the incident. That’s a long time to keep working for an organization you think might murder you.

The reader can compare the book to the Alcor newsletter, which is contemporary and has been posted on the web for 7 years. For myself, I find that nothing that is reported in FROZEN that I have any personal knowledge of, bears much resemblance to reality.



Steve Harris, MD

Sparky: SteveHarrisMD, I do not know your specialty in medicine, but I really must think that as a medical practioner you especially would be skeptical to any potential mental "Re-Animation" of brain cells (let alone "memory" which is a whole other ball-of-wax) . Since a California medical license number was provided for you by a poster here, may I assume you are a practicing medical professional? Are you also a medical researcher (i.e., medical scientist)?

COMMENT:
More a researcher these days, though I retain some patients and keep my license and education current.

Sparky: I have troubles logically with the entire process. What more do you get from "flash-freezing" a corpse once that corpse is thawed out except "frozen strawberry mush"? (cryogenics 101). The cells rupture upon freezing. Have you or your cryonic lab figured out a solution to this problem? Wouldn't all your current "clients" so frozen be little more than frozen compost...no matter what future technology is developed?

COMMENT:
Good questions. Most of the damage done to a frozen strawberry happens during thawing; it is then that the cells mostly fall apart from osmotic shock and membrane damage. If you could liken cells to cars, most of them then would be cars blown to pieces and scattered over the road. However, that doesn’t happen in cryonics unless you let somebody who was straight-frozen (no cryoprotectant) thaw. While still frozen, the cells in tissues look a bit more like cars that have been smashed between semi-trucks (the ice crystals). They are squashed and pushed to one side, but often intact. Ice crystals form mostly outside cells, and the insides of cells vitrify, as they become more and more concentrated. Ice itself doesn’t make cells rupture from volume effects—it’s only 10% expansion and cells are far more distensible than a plastic milk jug. It’s the big crystals outside cells that do the damage.

With a tissue that has been perfused with a cryoprotectant to minimize ice formation, the crystals between cells are variably sized. Depending on how well the tissue is perfused, it may look like the truck-car-truck smash, or it may look almost perfectly fine. Bits of rat brain have been cryopreserved and devitrified to work electrically. That’s mammal brain and it’s a long way from strawberry jam.

For real people it’s going to be a mix from brain-part to brain-part, and from person to person. At the cellular level, the question becomes something like putting together a pot or skull which has been broken to many pieces. Then also, there’s the philosophical question of what happens when you “restore” a badly smashed old car by replacing many pieces—at what point is it not the same car? Clearly if all the information is gone (as with a cremated corpse) you can’t get it back. But how much is there in a frozen “corpse”? How much is redundant in memory? If you tore a dictionary into stamp sized pieces, could you put it back together? At what size piece does this become impossible, even in theory? Does anybody really think memory is stored at the atom-by-atom level? We don’t really know, but it’s probably far coarser grained than that. You can SEE changes in learning synapses on electron microscopy.

Sparky: What papers have you produced yet on your cryonic experiments? Are there other papers of cryonic giants upon whose shoulders future cryonic scientists stand? If none (yet) because of the infancy of this (IMO, psuedo-)science then what data are you seeing that gives you any hope of the mental reanimation of the dead?

COMMENT: This is a complicated inductive argument. There’s a bibliography at the Alcor website. Here is the faq: [www.alcor.org]. Here is the library with some papers: [www.alcor.org]. Here is a brief list of scientific papers: [www.alcor.org]. My own work is less in sub-zero cryobiology than it is in rapid cooling near normal body temperatures. See for example: [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov].

Sparky: Have there been any breakthroughs in successful medical reanimation technology of lower mammalian lifeforms prepared under strict cryonic prep?

COMMENT: whole animals? Not that I know of.

Sparky: You see, Occum's razor slices against cryonics until evidence of successful re-animation/memory survival can be demonstrated through the scientific method.

COMMENT: Well, Occam’s razor isn’t much good for induction, because the universe refuses to be as simple as it can be. Remember I. I. Rabi’s comment regarding the muon? “Who ordered THAT?!” What good is a superheavy version of the electron, or (for that matter) a super-super-heavy one (tauon)? Occam is a guiding principle for explaining known facts, but does no good when looking at the future, where the facts haven’t happened, yet. And where new ones can come in, that nobody “ordered.”

The simplest view of the future is that it will just like the present, but clearly, that is wrong. The next simplest assumption is that it will look like the present with all the current trends projected along their first derivatives. Good luck doing that with the stock market. Okay, now try a Taylor expansion and reconstruct and project the future of the market, with as many derivatives as you think you can detect. Now, can you get rich? No. People have tried this, believe me. So what does Occam’s razor say about the stock market-- surely a toy model of the future, if ever there was one? Answer: nothing. So, what do we learn from this lesson?

My own guess is that technology will eventually be able to do anything that isn’t forbidden by the laws of physics. So maybe there never will be a warp drive or backward time travel or even a decent Star Trek deflector shield that protects against kinetic or energy weapons. But as for the rest, anything goes. The problem is what order they come in. I never thought I’d have an iPhone better than the classic Trek communicator, while my car still had a lead-acid battery. But I do. And in Star Trek classic they had faster than light drive, but their TV screens weren’t flat (check it out). They could dematerialize and re-materialize themselves, but they aged at close to the normal rate and still had a lot of infectious diseases. Some things are just failures of imagination.

My guess is that cryonics will “work” in some fashion for some subset of people who try it. My guess is that cremation will not “work,” and getting anything more than a clone back from burial is probably beyond the laws of physics. But I could be wrong.

Cryonics is a question of values. How much of your assets do you bet in the present, against payoff in the future? There’s another place that Occam doesn’t help you.

Well said Sparky. I am sure now that Harris has appeared here, many followers will appear to try and plead their case for the cult. They like to move in packs. I wonder if any of them care to justify murdering their members to us?

I read about the Upis beetle here: [www.sciencedaily.com]

I don't claim it is proof of reversible mammalian cryopreservation, just that it is one small data point that points in the direction of possibility.

All I can provide to the forum here is what I saw, and I didn't observe anything cult-like, or dangerous, or illegal. Just the opposite, actually.

I am curious about some of the remarks made by Justin Loew. He said he "found the (Alcor) facilities managed well." What exactly does that mean? Do they provide competent care providers for each and every case? Are they profitable? Do they carry out their business in a way that will prevent negative publicity? Why have they had three chiefs over the last few years? Why have they had a rather long on-going searching for a CEO, if they are so well-managed?

What is Justin Loew's profession? Most people don't know anything about surgical equipment, especially perfusion equipment, so I'm curious as to why he would call their equipment "modern." I'm a perfusionist, and the last time I was at Alcor, they had some older perfusion pumps assembled on a cart, with a computer. It wasn't anything I would call "modern," 3+ years ago, and I haven't seen them advertise any new equipment. At the time, they had their field perfusion oxygenator positioned higher than the reservoir, something that can easily cause massive air embolism, a problem Alcor is known to have been plagued with, in the past. How many people on their staff are capable of competently performing the needed surgical procedures?

I'm not even going to comment on the "highly speculative science and engineering," other than to say I haven't seen any great scientific experiments coming out of Alcor, and I think they've wasted more money than they should have on amateur engineering efforts.

Melody Maxim

The poster posting as "Justin Loew", actually suggests that the Alcor staff commit what is known as "murder" or assisted suicide.
QUOTE: [forum.culteducation.com] "With regards to administering meds and starting the cryopreservation process before "legal" death, I am all for it".

They can't do that, that is illegal, and should be illegal for all the reasons it is illegal, as there are too many ways that terrible and illegal things can happen, as shown in this thread, like eliminating people early to get at the money, and like murdering healthy children when they are 10 years old "on the table" to get a "good preservation".
Lethal and insane dangerous Cryonics delusions, Imminst.org, Immortality Institute [forum.culteducation.com]
The cryonics propagandists are the ones who actually say stuff like that, and seem to believe it.
That is even FAR worse than a dangerous religious sect that forbids medical treatment for children.

This person then says there is nothing cultlike about Alcor, and then says in the same breath they want to change the legal definition of "death" and move to Oregon?
Talk about irony.
This stuff about Alcor, just reads like the standard Alcor marketing material, to prey on the naive wishful thinkers. They bamboozle them with bullshit about living forever.
What they are selling literally is a new "religion" in that sense. The Venturists admit that, as proven in this thread.

The comment about secret handshakes and incantations, actually shows that who is posting is associated with cryonics, or a sarcastic Venturist.
A search for:

"Justin Loew" cryonics

turns up links, like "Immortality Institute Executive Director Justin Loew" [www.acceleratingfuture.com] [www.imminst.org]

If that is the same person, why did they not identify themselves as already being on the cryonics gravy-train?
This is standard for the cryonics promoters and salespeople, deception. Those who SELL and MARKET cryonics for a living, are extremely deceptive. They are different than the standard "true believer" in cryonics, who might just be caught up in thinking about living forever in the future, like a Sci-Fi fantasy.

As far as doing a "tour" of Alcor, that is nonsense. What is in the tanks? What is in the books? That is what is relevant.
The "patient care trust fund" is complete bullshit. Its a fraud.
There is no patient, once you are DEAD, they have your money and can do whatever they want with it.

As shown here and elsewhere, the Alcor contracts and sales process are highly deceptive. The sales contracts say things that are not contained in the REAL contracts.
The fact is once you are DEAD and are simply "biological research material", then Alcor can do whatever it wants with your remains, including cremating or disposing of it.
Who is watching out what is going on around there? No one. The one guy who did blow the whistle with the book, told what goes on there.

And regards the money, once you are DEAD and they have your MONEY, its GAME OVER. Who says they are going to invest some money away from Alcor in case Alcor goes broke? That sounds very suspicious to anyone who thinks clearly.
The small group of people who control Alcor and the money, can "invest" it where ever they want. Who's to say its not going to go into their friends companies?
Where is all the money that gets wasted in inflated salaries for untrained people, and expenses for the small group of Alcor insiders?

The current Alcor members are the ones who should be organizing and demanding completely open books, down to the penny. The Alcor members could form an anonymous online group and ORGANIZE to clean up that mess. Or they could use their names, but Alcor will viciously ATTACK anyone who speaks up with their suits, using YOUR money. That is a fact.
The self-appointed "leaders" of Alcor should all be fired, and any proper organization should be democratic, and elected, with full disclosure.

And for those who believe in some type of regulated cryonics, they could also form some type of organization, to try and bring to the notice of authorities what is going on, that can take time.

But Alcor, and these other so-called "cryonics" organizations are a disaster. As explained in this thread its really just a way for those who control the companies to get their hands on huge amounts of ASSETS that they control. They are hoping for BILLIONS, if they can get a piece of the mainstream funeral business.
So their goal is to TARGET and market to a more mainstream audience, to bring in more bodies, as corpses=money. They are doing it using organized and planned DECEPTION, and misleading marketing, and trick contracts that people don't understand. Why are the cryonics salespeople and promoters so systematically deceptive in their presentation of cryonics and their companies to the public?
Because they want the CONTRACTS and the assets. Once Alcor gets ANY contact with the person, then there could be a terrible legal fight at death, and its a nightmare for the family. Alcor does that even without a contract, as shown in various cases. So its a huge mistake to have ANY contact with Alcor at all, as they can and will use it against the person.
Once they have the money and the corpse its GAME OVER. No one knows what is going on, as there is no regulation, as the body is just research material, and Alcor can do anything they want with it. Alcor knows that of course, and that is why they keep all of that out of the marketing material.
Why have they chosen to use deception only in their marketing and sales?

The assessment by the whistle-blowers about "cryonics" companies like Alcor is totally correct.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2010 10:06PM by The Anticult.

Hi Anticult,

Welcome back to this discussion. I agree with you 100% and nice going on identifying Justin Loew. I am sure the cryonics whistle-blowers appreciate you support.

I want to thank you, Antcult, for writing that last post. It convinced me. Just to make sure I have it down right, let's quickly run through - in chronological order - what you said/insinuated in the last post:


1. Demanding changes in legal definitions and/or moving to another state is "cultlike." (So we should probably keep an eye on homosexuals doing the same thing with marriage, etc)

2. You say, "They bamboozle them with bullshit about living forever" and, though most games come with a "Play again?" option, you point out that "once you are DEAD and they have your MONEY, its GAME OVER." (So anything claiming to restore life is fraudulent)

3. You suggest that Alcor improve their management, open books, and so on. (Thus, they could do their fraudulent activities more effectively/efficiently)

4. The government will find it wise and cost-effective to fairly regulate fraudulent activities. (For example, check fraud is permissible if it is performed by legally certified hucksters)

5. You must be correct because Larry "agree(s) with you 100%"



That makes sense.

Below is a post from Melody Maxim’s blog. She is calling Dr. Steve Harris out. Of course Harris is trying to back track and cover up his statement about Alcor and SA's use of the deadly drug Propofol. Harris has admitted to their use of deadly drugs to kill their members. He is a typical Alcorian, a pathological liar. What is amazing is that we are getting to actually witness a POSSIBLE crime unfold right here.


Monday, March 15, 2010

Inconsistencies from Steve Harris MD

Recently, when I was questioning the use of the drug propofol, during cryonics field procedures, Steve Harris MD responded with, "We give 200 mg. There you are. If there are any signs of awareness later, such as eyelid movement or even shivering (not a sign of awareness but certainly a sign of CNS activity), another equal dose is held in reserve." [www.network54.com] Since Alcor and SA are the only two companies selling cryonics field procedures ("standby, stabilization and transport" services) and Steve Harris works with both of those companies, (he's the "Chief Medical Advisor" of Alcor, a "Director" of Suspended Animation, and usually the "consulting MD" for their field procedures), I thought it was safe to assume his collective "we" meant Alcor and SA.

After I located an inventory of SA's meds kits, and noted it did not contain 200mg of propofol, "in reserve," Harris responded with, "We ourselves carry backup doses of many "small volume" medications, since just an extra dose of the meds with no extra syringe or other equipment requires very little extra room in the kit, and then one has a backup if a vial is accidently broken. I thought Alcor and SAI did this. If not, I'll formally suggest it." [www.network54.com]

Harris seems to be asking us to believe he wasn't responding on behalf of Alcor and SA, but I'm not buying it. Why would he be responding to my questions, regarding Alcor and SA's protocols, with information about some other entity, which doesn't even sell "standby, stabilization and transport" services? Is it not true that both Alcor and Suspended Animation keep standby kits at CCR? Are we now being asked to believe CCR keeps a different set of meds, and Harris doesn't know what is in Alcor's and SA's kits? Why would they do that, and why would a physician who is the common thread between ALL the cryonics care providers, (Harris is also on the Advisory Board of Cryonics Institute), not have standardized the meds kits many years ago? Is he not the person who designed the meds protocols for Alcor and Suspended Animation? Has he not worked with Alcor for more than 20 years? Has he not worked with Suspended Animation for the entirety of their existence, nearly eight years? I find Harris to be inconsistent, and not very credible. If he doesn't know what SA and Alcor are doing, maybe he should let them speak for themselves.

Posted by Melody