(the moderated posts get delayed, so its easy to miss some).

That stuff actually sounds like something David Pizer would write!
Can you believe those statements?

Someone saying they signed an irrevocable trust, without having it reviewed, one that was recommended by the cryonics company?
For "her" protection?
"Greedy relatives"?
The Larry Johnson occult following?

Those are all David Pizer style cryonics sales talking points.
Its beyond sheer madness, to sign a permanent legal contract, without legal advice. You see what they are trying to do, to influence naive cryonics dreamers to SIGN THE PAPERS without thinking about it, or understanding anything. Once they sign, its too late, they have it.
That sounds like a Rudi Hoffman operation.

And Ben Best is talking about OFFSHORE OPTIONS FOR CRYONICISTS [www.benbest.com]
When did cryonics become so concerned with white-collar financial shennanigans that cross the line of legality? Who is behind this stuff?
And Ben Best is suggesting people name a cryonics company as the beneficiary to an offshore financial trust?
Look at this gem from Ben Best:
[www.benbest.com] "One government that is very aggressive in soliciting offshore trust business is that of Belize (in Central America). Belizean courts will not recognize the claims of foreign creditors, of marital partners or of divorcees -- or any US court order. Belize trusts have the unusual feature that one person can be Settlor, Trustee, Protector and Beneficiary of a trust. Belize also offers "Economic Citizenship" (ie, a second passport for $75,000 or more). Information on Belize offshore trusts can be found at:"

The cryonics game is turning into some type of offshore financial slush-fund operation, that is sounding like money-laundering and white collar crime. This is the part of "cryonics" that needs to be investigated.
They are trying to take advantage of naive people, who have some money. As the cryonics salespeople know, and fool and their money is soon parted.
The cryonics salespeople try to justify with a conspiracy theory, that the "goverment" is against them.
The financial games being thrown around in cryonics sales, its starting to sound like a financial fraud operation.

That is the precise mentality from the cryonics salespeople that is being harshly criticized and has ruined the reputation of the cryonics companies.
That is a crooked strategy, to try to deceive naive cryonics dreamers, and it will backfire as it leaks out.


And by the way, this forum is looking ahead to various sects that have caused serious problems. James Arthur Ray was warned about more than 2 years before people died. [forum.culteducation.com]
Byron Katie has been exposed in detail, Royal Way, and many others.

There is a good amount of research in this thread about the cultish aspects of the cryonics companies in operation.
And some posting here, as a matter of fact, were actually into Extropianism. [en.wikipedia.org] You know, where Ben Best and Mark Plus got their fake names.

Its the Transhumanists who need to speak out immediately about the scams and crookery going on in cryonics. But some of them are naive themselves, and are only now learning what has gone on in the corrupt cryonics organizations. But some don't want to stick their head up, as they have already signed those papers, and are fearful of retaliation.

By the way, the people in cryonics that have used serious threats and personal attacks to try and silence criticism, that is also a cultic technique.

Quote
CryoGirl
..

I didn't even need to have my trust looked at. It was just recommended by the agency. I preferred an irrevocable trust to prevent family members from interferring with my cryonics suspension due to greed or whatever motive they have at the time of my legal death. It is for my protection. ...

You know, if this forum would have been active at the time, you guys could have probably saved lives by stopping Marshall Applewhite from dragging all those people into committing suicide. You know a forum like this can be a useful tool if it helps to prevent shit like Jim Jones or the Branch Davidians.
...
I guess Larry Johnson is your guys' new guru now. I'm wondering if most of you are forming an occult. He seems to have quite a following! How many occults are based on hate and misinformation?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2010 07:58AM by The Anticult.

Quote
Anon1
Obviously the cult members on Cold Filter are monitoring our posts and anticult.
[www.network54.com]...

For whatever reason "Finance_Department" is trying to post some disinformation, with the message of "see no evil" close your eyes to reality. Why be afraid to look at the facts of reality?
That is the same horrible "advice" the cryonics salesmen tell cryonics prospects when they tell them to NOT read their legal contracts, and to "trust them".
That sounds like the kinds of scams they pull at LGAT seminars to rob people blind.


By the way as said many, those posting are NOT the moderator of the website. That is mis/dis-information #1.

"The Anticult" has never said "all of cryonics is a cult". That is another lie, or perhaps based on never reading one post, and its meaningless to boot.
There are all sorts of activities around cryonics, that are crooked, misleading, dishonest, and even apparently illegal. And those have nothing to do with freezing heads.

More distortion from FD is about the "insurance" for cryonics. That has been DEBUNKED. Its often a bait & switch, and they are trying to upsell people.
The other issues are these bogus "trusts" some of which are probably illegal.
That does not even scratch the surface of the cryonics scams.

Its the deceptive sales and marketing, the emotional appeals to religiousity and "immortality" to influence people, and all those other issues around "cryonics" mentioned above that stink to high heaven and beyond.

The general public needs to be warned of the deceptive persuasion tactics being used in the cryonics business, to try and get new customers, and to take advantage of the elderly.
The public needs to be warned of the scams around the cryonics contracts, and the beyond dubious financial games being played, some of which are probably illegal.

And no one should EVER sign ANYTHING to ANY cryonics company, without having their OWN hired attorney review every single word of it, and explain every word of it.
Don't let these cryonics salespeople put PRESSURE on you to sign the papers. They are expert salespeople, who are running a strategy, that is well-known in the world of LGAT seminars, and explained in many places.


The cryonics salespeople are constantly talking about money.
But notice how they try to dissuade people from spending money seeing their attorney to review the contracts in precise detail?
They are trying to use high-pressure sales techniques on people, and deception.
Never ever sign anything with any cryonics company, without your own attorney present.
Especially those who are elderly, or ill, and how are being emotionally taken advantage of when vulnerable.

The cryonics salesmen know the person has only 3 DAYS in most states to get out of that contract, after that, if its an irrevocable trust, they are permanently screwed.

They don't want people to think about the legal and financial contracts, they want them to think about Sci-Fi space travel phantasies.
They know if they can hype them up, get them to sign an irrevocable trust, then the person can NEVER LEAVE.
It literally is the Hotel Cryofornia, if you sign the irrevocable trust, you can never leave.
That is one of the most disturbing contractual behaviors seen in ANY group or sect.

Many Attorneys General need to be notified of this deceptive and exploitative practice, in the context of the cryonics companies.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2010 08:36AM by The Anticult.

I believe you are right Anticult. Looks like we all need to join Larry Johnson in this battle. I checked out the regulatecryonics.org site. It's under construction, but it looks interesting. Looks like the organization is building staff.

Comparing the incompetence and unethical behaviors of certain cryonics organizations to conventional medicine, the funeral business and traditional animal research is a pointless smoke screen, frequently used in cryonics. There are hundreds of thousands of heart surgeries, (in which cannulations and perfusion are used), and probably millions of funerals, each year, compared to a handful of cryonics procedures. Comparing Michael "Mike Darwin" Federowicz' "1,000" dog experiments to experiments done by pharmaceutical companies is like comparing a glass of water to the ocean. Percentage-wise, there's a LOT more unprofessional and unethical behavior in cryonics, than in most other walks of life.

Quote
captnims
Does anyone know about this organization [regulatecryonics.org]

I am a probate attorney recently retired from the military and I am thinking about joining this group. Looking for a good cause to join. Is this organization run by Larry Johnson?

I think you should contact them, if you have an interest in this area. I've heard there are other professionals involved. I know there is a lot of fear, regarding regulation, amongst cryonicists, but if I was signed up to have my brain preserved, I would be more fearful that some unqualified person was going to show up to over-pressurize my brain or fill it full of air, without regulation.

Quote
melmax
I think you should contact them, if you have an interest in this area. I've heard there are other professionals involved.

Thanks, I believe I will. I know a few other attorneys and some physicians that would probably get involved.

One of the other beyond ridiculous aspects of the cryonics sales business, is when they try to upsell people to "investment trusts" that they tell people will accumulate while they are dead!

First off, once you are legally dead, you are legally dead.
So whoever is taking over that "trust", is just taking total control of the money. They can do what they want with it. Its not the dead person's money anymore, but they try to make naive people think it is.

Reconstituting a person from frozen, dead and destroyed human tissue, is not going to happen, it makes no sense, and there is absolutely no scientific evidence to support any of it...
But just for the sake of argument, lets say somehow a person could be reconstituted somehow, sometime, even by cloning the stem cells.
They certainly would NOT be legally the same person. Once you are legally dead, that's it.
And besides, if a person was ever reconstituted, then money would be the last of their worries, as they could simply make plenty of money teaching "history" for example.
So why the constant focus by the cryonics salesmen on money?

Its an obvious scam, to try and extract money from dying people, and put it into the cryonics financial salesmans hands, or the hands of the organization they control.
Who is falling for that scam? Who is the target market?
Are their actually any real people, other than the cryonics salespeople who are going to get the money themselves, who actually would consider this?
Its a blatant financial scam, its that simple.

One has to wonder if Scientology also has a program like that, as they also believe the person is going to live for billions of years. Scientology would probably try to avoid something like that, as that could bring the attorney general down on them.
Any New Age church could try the same thing, they could tell people to give them their money and they will "hold" it for them until they are resurrected or reincarnated.
That can't be legal? Otherwise other scam artists would be trying to do it.
(what they do is just talk the person into handing the entire Estate over before death, but they still have to fight the family)

These alleged bogus cryonics "investment trusts" need to be reported and looked into by the attorney general for fraud or false advertising by saying the person is going to get the money back "if" they are cryonically resurrected someday.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2010 11:45PM by The Anticult.

One of the other areas that is of grave concern, is how the cryonics Venturists and others want to be able to do their cryonics procedures on people, without a coroner's involvement.
They put out the idea to move that forward using a "religious" objection to a coroner's examination.

Combine that with the Venturists who want to start a cryonics community, where older people come to die.
Add onto that the complex legal and financial schemes, like wills and trusts and power of attorney, that are signed over to the cryonics companies.
On top of that there is the propofol issues, and the euthanasia issues.

So there would be a situation, where elderly people have all their assets and power of attorney signed over to the same cryonics company, who are MORE than eager to start euthanizing people.
If they are able to avoid the involvment of a coroner, then what?
Then people could be euthanized at will, and then put away, and no one would know what happened, and the cryonics company gets the 150K-multimillion dollar payout.

So there are many issues go on and on.
Other than banning aspects of cryonics which are illegal and fraudulent, the way ahead would seem to be extensive regulation by the authorities, who have the power to actually go into any cryonics org at any time, and see what is going on.

Is that going to happen?
The cryonics companies are fighting this, as they like the way it is now, with the bodies being biological research material, which allows them to do anything they want with the bodies.

But perhaps extensive government regulation would put an end to the lawsuits, and abuses, and apparent fraudulent financial activities going on.
That's why the cryonics companies and promoters are against regulation!

Harris said: "All of these people have been pronounced legally dead by some other independent doctor or agency, so that would be "prescribing drugs to be given to a corpse."
Anon1: Oh really? Would you care to explain the tape recordings on this website [www.frozenbook.com] , where two cryonics employees talked about injecting a live person with a drug to kill him?


COMMENT:

I wasn't there, and nothing like that has ever happened in my presence in cryonics. Nor would I allow it. I prefer to think it a tall tale. If people tell a story long enough, pretty soon they "remember it" that way.

If did happened it would have been illegal (as euthanasia of a dying person). If the police have enough evidence and interest, I presume they would prosecute. If they have not, I presume there is no evidence and no interest. It must be driving Johnson nuts that the cops don't go running after his recorded hearsay about such loathsome crime. I can only presume he blew his credibility crying wolf about experiments done on homeless people at Ventureville, and his fears that he'd be next.

A fair fraction of people who die of AIDS are essentially euthanized these days. I remember that back in the 1930's the terminal King George V's doctor (Lord Dawson of Penn) gave him an overdose of morphine and cocaine so his death would be reported in the respectable morning TIMES, rather than the afternoon tabloids. However, cryonicists should leave that kind of thing to the hospice, even in states where it is legal, due to conflict of interest. Also, the TIMES has since gone downhill considerably (Rupert Murdoch and all).


Steve Harris, MD

Captnims:Does anyone know about this organization [regulatecryonics.org]. I am a probate attorney recently retired from the military and I am thinking about joining this group. Looking for a good cause to join. Is this organization run by Larry Johnson?

COMMENT:
I suspect so. If you set up an anonymous website you can make it look like every level of the government and _60 Minutes_ are interested, and the sky is just about to fall. Except usually, it’s just somebody talking to themselves. Sometimes under several different names.

The call for cryonics to be “regulated” is somewhat ironic, inasmuch as since the 60’s and the anti funeral-industry-cartel/monopoly book The American Way of Death, a lot of states have returned power to care for the dead to the family, if that’s what they want. In California, for example, a family does not even need to deal with the funeral industry, if they don’t want to—neither embalmer or funeral director. A family can prepare a body at home, order a fast-ship casket from COSTCO (as little as $800 for metal), or a cardboard cremation case, transport the body in your own station wagon or pickup (forget the expensive hearse) to the crematorium or cemetery, and have the body cremated or buried on your own order. The state licenses the crematoriums and cemeteries (mainly as an upkeep and safety issue), but they can be private or non-profit (funeral societies are generally non-profit). Only two pieces of paperwork are required for this, and neither needs to be signed by a funeral director: one is the death certificate and the other is the disposition permit (which is filed with the state records department). In California, the latter has a disposition box for cryonics, after a major California battle almost 20 year ago.

Embalming is not required for burial, and so far as I can tell, is not regulated except as far as the chemical disposal. If formaldehyde and the like were not used, nobody would care. All of this in the absence of the anatomical gift act. There are some extra regulations for interstate transport and transport by common carrier, but not if you want to do it in your own car, inside the state.

[www.cfb.ca.gov]

Other states vary. In some, a funeral director needs to sign off at disposition. In Utah, the funeral industry has managed to convince the legislature of the incredible idea that burial of bodies without embalming and cement burial vaults is a public health hazard. Nonsense, of course: f anything, embalming fluid is a worse thing to get into ground water, and burial vaults do nothing but keep ground from settling and make sure land goes unused for longer.

Michigan, where Cryonics Institute is located, probably has the most draconian and industry-controlled laws of all the states (and much of it is new, passed under heavy lobbying), requiring a funeral director to be involved at every point in body preparation, transport, and disposal—all for a fee, of course. I guess we don’t have too many resident libertarians here. You can choose cryonics or not, but in Michigan you can’t choose to tell the funeral industry to take a hike. They’re there with their hand out, and the cops backing them up. If COSTCO/California/Neptune society is cradle-to-grave capitalism at its best, the ineluctable and literally regulated-to-death Michigan funeral industry, is a point for Karl Marx.

Steve Harris, MD