Agreed, but firstly, if the issue is about personality cults, sex and power, then it hardly seems that Tibetan Buddhism is the main offender in the modern world, and secondly, there is a case to be made that such things in Tibetan Buddhism are themselves a corruption. I am not claiming that the Tibetans are above such things, simply that it cannot really be taken as something exclusive to, nor representative of Tibetan Buddhism as a whole.Quote
It's not racism to say that tantrism was incorporated into Buddhism, and eventually travelled to Tibet. That's a historical fact. Scholars write about this (See "Indian Esoteric Buddhism", by Ronald Davidson, for one. But there are many books available on this.) Davidson discusses how the phenomenon of the personality cult was one of many elements (including sex and power) that were adopted by Buddhism and became popular with monks. Personality cults are part of the package in tantric Buddhism, though not all gurus choose to go that route. There's personal choice involved, no argument there. Nydahl obviously has chosen to take that to an extreme, but he's not the only one in the TB tradition to do so.
True. Nydahl does seem to distort the teachings. And my impression is that he also likes to dig up archaic practices (especially those of a sexual nature) and wallow in them. It seems like he's tailored Tibetan Buddhism to his own personal tastes and prejudices, blowing out of proportion those teachings that suit him.Quote
Agreed, but firstly, if the issue is about personality cults, sex and power, then it hardly seems that Tibetan Buddhism is the main offender in the modern world, and secondly, there is a case to be made that such things in Tibetan Buddhism are themselves a corruption. I am not claiming that the Tibetans are above such things, simply that it cannot really be taken as something exclusive to, nor representative of Tibetan Buddhism as a whole.
The fact that Nydahl distances himself from most Tibetans and that he also distances himself from the traditional teachings means that what we are considering here is one man's distorted fantasy.
Forbidden sexuality, including incest and adultery can and indeed must be practiced. Meats like beef, taboo to the Hindu, must be eaten. Alcoholic liquor, so hateful to the orthodox must be drunk. A tantric precept says, `By drinking and drinking and drinking again, rolling on the ground, rising and still drinking, a man saves himself from rebirth.
...Success with women and the ability to satisfy any number of them was the most coveted goal. This woman-subduing power was aimed at reducing females to a state of insane and demonic desire that only the tantric could assuage. Women could be tormented beyond endurance so they would come in hundreds with disheveled locks, their bodices bursting with ardor for the tantric, however decrepit, old, ugly or impotent he might be.
...As a cult obligation, followers are enjoined to carry out acts of a progressively more and more anti-social nature, to tell lies in preference to the truth, to steal what belongs to others, to commit robbery and violence, and in the final phase, to commit murder.
...In certain forms of tantric initiation, the candidate is asked whether, for the sake of the goddess, he would be prepared to kill anyone, even members of his own family.
I am actually looking through, "Indian Esoteric Buddhism", by Ronald Davidson at the moment. As far as I can see the picture he paints is pretty complicated, there seems to be no actual coherent body of practices called "tantra", he takes it at various times to mean "method" or "ritual" and it refers to the health pamphlets as opposed to the scriptures. There certainly seems to be no systematic influence of Shaivism, in fact the way he describes it is not unlike the way Christianity merged with Paganism and the two were practised together for a time, even now there being remains of Pagan sacrificial shrines in Christian countries, and Pagan objects such as mistletoe, holly, and trees at Christmas being intergrated into the conquering Religion. The tantra mentioning 9 and 12 year old girls was written in the 8th Century - I haven't researched this, but I would be surprised if this was any different to practices in Europe at that time.Quote
Accusing another of racism is really a desperate measure. She never said that Tibetan Buddhism is the main offender but as far as Buddhism goes, it is. It is the tantric teachings that are found even in Hinduism that is the main offender here. These Tantric teachings are not found in Theravadin or most Zen, sometimes they are found in Chan. Buddha did not teach the tantras!!! As I and Misstyk have said, they are a corruption of the Vedas and of Buddhism. We have both offered you books to read, but it doesn't look like you wish to educate yourself on this manner.
This is exactly what is in dispute. My experiences of TB in other settings have not even come close. What you are saying is that TB is to blame, not Nydahl, and this is exactly where we started by saying that this lets him off the hook.Quote
...the reason is, that TB is a cult, not Nydahl´s bad character and his alleged wrong interpretation of TB.
This is entirely my point. After 168 pages we only have one claim about this kind of abuse. Even then karam-mudra seems rather unclear about what actually happened. I hope that the trial produces something concrete for us to go on, but even then, one instance of abuse does not generally constitute empirical evidence on which to condemn thousands.Quote
...western evidence based thought...