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Misstyk
It's not racism to say that tantrism was incorporated into Buddhism, and eventually travelled to Tibet. That's a historical fact. Scholars write about this (See "Indian Esoteric Buddhism", by Ronald Davidson, for one. But there are many books available on this.) Davidson discusses how the phenomenon of the personality cult was one of many elements (including sex and power) that were adopted by Buddhism and became popular with monks. Personality cults are part of the package in tantric Buddhism, though not all gurus choose to go that route. There's personal choice involved, no argument there. Nydahl obviously has chosen to take that to an extreme, but he's not the only one in the TB tradition to do so.

Agreed, but firstly, if the issue is about personality cults, sex and power, then it hardly seems that Tibetan Buddhism is the main offender in the modern world, and secondly, there is a case to be made that such things in Tibetan Buddhism are themselves a corruption. I am not claiming that the Tibetans are above such things, simply that it cannot really be taken as something exclusive to, nor representative of Tibetan Buddhism as a whole.

The fact that Nydahl distances himself from most Tibetans and that he also distances himself from the traditional teachings means that what we are considering here is one man's distorted fantasy.

Accusing another of racism is really a desperate measure. She never said that Tibetan Buddhism is the main offender but as far as Buddhism goes, it is. It is the tantric teachings that are found even in Hinduism that is the main offender here. These Tantric teachings are not found in Theravadin or most Zen, sometimes they are found in Chan. Buddha did not teach the tantras!!! As I and Misstyk have said, they are a corruption of the Vedas and of Buddhism. We have both offered you books to read, but it doesn't look like you wish to educate yourself on this manner.

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suenam
Agreed, but firstly, if the issue is about personality cults, sex and power, then it hardly seems that Tibetan Buddhism is the main offender in the modern world, and secondly, there is a case to be made that such things in Tibetan Buddhism are themselves a corruption. I am not claiming that the Tibetans are above such things, simply that it cannot really be taken as something exclusive to, nor representative of Tibetan Buddhism as a whole.

The fact that Nydahl distances himself from most Tibetans and that he also distances himself from the traditional teachings means that what we are considering here is one man's distorted fantasy.

True. Nydahl does seem to distort the teachings. And my impression is that he also likes to dig up archaic practices (especially those of a sexual nature) and wallow in them. It seems like he's tailored Tibetan Buddhism to his own personal tastes and prejudices, blowing out of proportion those teachings that suit him.

Come on, you both, that should be the result of our thoughtful discussion here?

Nydahl does exactly what Batchlor is demanding: To give an archaic and superstitious "religion", what harms people, especially women for hundred of years, by fear-porn and surrender, a modern face, in which western people can find their "own" coloured beliving-system.

That´s why I was atteched to him. I broke with him only because I found out - independent from my specific experiences - that he is in reality practising the same misogynistc, racist -did you ever seee the DL in Africa , did you ever read the Kalachakra Tantra, in which you find a furious hate against Islam - and energy-exploring rituals as the Tibetans he is accepting like Karmapa, Jigme, the brother of Shamarpa, and Sharmapa. The last one turned to the authentic Buddha´s teachings and he is here an exceptional in a sense.

And of course by this way Nydahl created his own cult we are criticising here. But the reason is, that TB is a cult, not Nydahl´s bad character and his alleged wrong interpretation of TB.

I am not so sure Misstyk. I think Nydahl is following his teachings. Here is what is in the book,

Tantrism: Its Secret Principles and Practices, .

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Forbidden sexuality, including incest and adultery can and indeed must be practiced. Meats like beef, taboo to the Hindu, must be eaten. Alcoholic liquor, so hateful to the orthodox must be drunk. A tantric precept says, `By drinking and drinking and drinking again, rolling on the ground, rising and still drinking, a man saves himself from rebirth.

...Success with women and the ability to satisfy any number of them was the most coveted goal. This woman-subduing power was aimed at reducing females to a state of insane and demonic desire that only the tantric could assuage. Women could be tormented beyond endurance so they would come in hundreds with disheveled locks, their bodices bursting with ardor for the tantric, however decrepit, old, ugly or impotent he might be.

...As a cult obligation, followers are enjoined to carry out acts of a progressively more and more anti-social nature, to tell lies in preference to the truth, to steal what belongs to others, to commit robbery and violence, and in the final phase, to commit murder.

...In certain forms of tantric initiation, the candidate is asked whether, for the sake of the goddess, he would be prepared to kill anyone, even members of his own family.

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grainne uaile
Accusing another of racism is really a desperate measure. She never said that Tibetan Buddhism is the main offender but as far as Buddhism goes, it is. It is the tantric teachings that are found even in Hinduism that is the main offender here. These Tantric teachings are not found in Theravadin or most Zen, sometimes they are found in Chan. Buddha did not teach the tantras!!! As I and Misstyk have said, they are a corruption of the Vedas and of Buddhism. We have both offered you books to read, but it doesn't look like you wish to educate yourself on this manner.

I am actually looking through, "Indian Esoteric Buddhism", by Ronald Davidson at the moment. As far as I can see the picture he paints is pretty complicated, there seems to be no actual coherent body of practices called "tantra", he takes it at various times to mean "method" or "ritual" and it refers to the health pamphlets as opposed to the scriptures. There certainly seems to be no systematic influence of Shaivism, in fact the way he describes it is not unlike the way Christianity merged with Paganism and the two were practised together for a time, even now there being remains of Pagan sacrificial shrines in Christian countries, and Pagan objects such as mistletoe, holly, and trees at Christmas being intergrated into the conquering Religion. The tantra mentioning 9 and 12 year old girls was written in the 8th Century - I haven't researched this, but I would be surprised if this was any different to practices in Europe at that time.

You mention Theravadin and Zen as being free of these practices, but I looked into it and there have been similar reports of abuses, so as I said before, the connection here is not as simple as you seem to want to paint it.

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karam-mudra
...the reason is, that TB is a cult, not Nydahl´s bad character and his alleged wrong interpretation of TB.

This is exactly what is in dispute. My experiences of TB in other settings have not even come close. What you are saying is that TB is to blame, not Nydahl, and this is exactly where we started by saying that this lets him off the hook.

"This is exactly what is in dispute. My experiences of TB in other settings have not even come close. What you are saying is that TB is to blame, not Nydahl, and this is exactly where we started by saying that this lets him off the hook."

I don´t agee, Sueanam. If your experiences in other settings of TB did not have even come close to what we are presenting here it doesn´t mean, our researches are wrong. Only one person named Sue did not experience it, like a lot of other believers of TB. Good for you, good for them.

When you say, by blaming TB we let Nydahl off the hook, then is it not true. We got him on the hook as well as the whole fish!

Just now realized something.

First, if someone privileges Vajrayana is special, so special that the findings of social psychologists do not apply to it, that there is no way anything in Vajrayana can replicate other forms of social control, that there is zero possiblity that ngondro contains elements that in other non Vajaryana contexts are linked to mind control -- thats to privilege Vajrayana as being magically exempt from the temptations of power.

So thats something to find out before the argument continues. Ask someone if its possible that Vajarayana is capable in any way, at any time, of replicating conditions for mental and emotional influence that have been identified over the years in many other settings, by social psychologists such as Milgram, Zimbardo, and Gruenberg, the one who did the Stanford Cookie experiment.

If someone is convinced that the factors identified by social psychologists can never apply to Vajrayana--there's no way to continue an argument. One can mention these findings over and over, but a person actually loyal to Vajrayana will remain convinced that a magic circle or mandala makes Vajrayana exempt from these abuses of power.

Or an advocate may modify matters and insist "But my teacher and my lineage are exempt from all this." Thats just another version of the magic circle belief that Ive found a little Shangri La that is safe from the ills of the world that the social psychologists have noted elsewhere. All that could never happen to my guru or in my sangha.

Besides, if one has bought the system one is convinced that having any kind of doubt (which includes taking the findings of Zimbardo, Milgram and Gruenberg and daring imagine one;s guru or any Vajrayana guru could fall into this) such doubts will cause one to lose all one's hard earned merit.

Perhaps....to consider Vajrayana as not exempt from the findings of social psychology is itself to doubt and lose merit.

More about merit accumulation in the next post.

Those outside of TB/Vajrayana belief system evaluate an argument according to whether it uses evidence well, acknowledges all points raised by the other side. What counts here is the merit of one's line of reasoning and how well one uses evidence.

The rules of logic and evaluation of evidence and search for justice in this lifetime are what count. If you consider that we have one lifetime that we can be sure about, then justice in this lifetime becomes a matter of concern.

In Vajrayana the belief system has it that:

1) We have been born through a myriad of lifetimes and will be born through very many more lifetimes.

Two, in this view, your enemy or abuser in this lifetime was once your loving great grandmother, your loving mother in this lifetime was once your murderer, your family dog was once your evil great grandfather, the fish you ate at dinner was once your mother's deceased abusive husband. So, we are advised to treat everyone equally.

Three, if you are treated badly in this lifetime, be patient (note how patience with one's circumstances is constantly extolled as meritorious in Vajrayana**.

Four, defending Vajrayana from those who would hinder it or set limits on it automatically generates merit that will bring one a fortunate rebirth. It doesnt matter if one's advocacy for Vajrayana ignores heaps of harm reports, or is expressed in circular or otherwise faulty logical reasoning. Any defense of Vajrayana, no matter how clumsy or unskilled will will earn that advocacy merit. Merit, merit merit.

All that counts is adding to one's merit account. Lack of logic, ignoring the testimonies others have brought forward, being told one is hairsplitting, or arguing in circles--all of which lose points according to the criteria of Western rhetoric--that doesnt matter.

All that matters is endlessly arguing for Vajrayana so one can pile up merit, then be reborn in circumstances where one is on the Fast Track to Buddhahood.

**Impatience with ones circumstances is what lead to workers rights, unions, reformed the monarchy in Britain and led to the American and French revolutions.

The high lamas who tell us to be patient are only too glad to accept money from the wealthy creative societies made possible by attitudes of impatience and eagerness for improvement .)

From the standpoint of western evidence based thought Suenam is arguing in circles.

But...from the Vajrayana standpoint, she's acquiring merit by defending the noblity of Vajrayana against adversaries.

The logic and use of evidence in one's argument doesnt matter if one is defending Buddha's Magic Kingdom against the forces of ignorance. As long as one keeps on fighting,in the Vaj system one aquires merit and gets a better rebirth in the next go-around.

So, its cognitively irrelevant in this merit earning system if one's arguments are not satisfactory when evaluated from the standpoint of Western rules of evidence--whether the rules are those of science, journalism, or law/human rights.

The other difference is we operate on assumption we have one life so justice matters for persons harmed in this life.

In Vajrayana, we've been reborn zillions of times, so your enemy was once your mother, your loving mother once your enemy, if you stay humble and patient while being treated unjustly by a rinpoche, you earn merit (from a Vajrayana standpoint) and get a better rebirth.

Its the old concept, ridiculed by the workers movement "You'll get pie in the sky when you die."

In Vajrayana "you get a better rebirth next time" so be patient and polite to the guru, no matter how much he misbehaves.

Remember, from a non Vajrayana point of view, staying polite and unemotional when a guru acts out protects that guru from ever experiencing social consequences for his (or her) lapses into bad behavior.

Persons I know who were heavy addicts and alcoholics and who became sober mostly reported that it was their friends and families losing patience with their bad behavior that gave them incentive to question the cost of their addiction and to stop it.

In the West, impatience often led to improvements in economics, work conditions, health conditions, use of power.

Impatience created affluent Western societies that the exiled lamas, rinpcches and tulkus now find desirable to visit and get support from.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2017 10:45PM by corboy.

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corboy
...western evidence based thought...

This is entirely my point. After 168 pages we only have one claim about this kind of abuse. Even then karam-mudra seems rather unclear about what actually happened. I hope that the trial produces something concrete for us to go on, but even then, one instance of abuse does not generally constitute empirical evidence on which to condemn thousands.
When Nydahl condemns the entirety of Islam on the basis of the actions of a small number of bad apples I also disagree.

The fact is that most of the contributors on this thread have pointed to certain issues with DWB and with Nydahl specifically. Then we get a few who seem to want to make him out to be some kind of out of control sex pest, the responsibility for which is attributed to an entire religion. One of us is grounded in "western evidence based thought" - I will leave it to you to decide which.