"I highlighted in bold the argument to reinforce what I am trying to say here. Nydahl didn't do it correctly, and lacks both a high degree of meditative ability and spiritual knowledge. The same thing would go for a doctor who performed a procedure incorrectly and without the proper training or knowledge - this is not a good reason to condemn all doctors."

Suanam, we would have to look deeper to the general practise how Tibetan lamas in general give the secrete transferences of Naropa, especially to women. My theory and experience and the one of a lot of other experienced women and the result of some critical researchers is, that we -natuerally talented in the Lama´s eyes - are deliberately thrown into that state called bardo and by setting free our energies, which come out of our feelings like fear, desperation, exstatic sexual states and a lot of other phenomena - they work with women´s power and control them.

So the needing of the energies for the adepts´s - here Nydahl and Karmapa, who had to go through the rituals although he is called a high incarnation - own enlighment is part of the Tantras, read Kalachakra-Tantra, chapter 9.

I stop now seeing what you don´t know and what you don´t want to know. Your pattern of argument is quite transparent, like Grainne said: argue in circles until the other gives up. You may win, it´s ok!

Sorry, rrrrmoderator! Last one on that topic.

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karam-mudra
And of course by this way Nydahl created his own cult we are criticising here. But the reason is, that TB is a cult, not Nydahl´s bad character and his alleged wrong interpretation of TB.

I think it's both. I think TB has all the elements in place for someone to use it as a cult if they want. Some teachers do, some don't. Some teachers promote guru devotion even in the preliminary stages of instruction, and foster "group-think"--Ole being an extreme example, while some teachers are humble and insist that their students not regard them as anything special. And I also think that Ole picks aspects of the teachings that appeal to him, and blows them out of proportion. Like the anti-Muslim part of the Kalachakra, and the idea that Africa and other parts of the world have a lower standard of living because of everyone's bad karma there. (The seeds for this idea are in the Lamrim, but Ole harps on it and gives that one piece (out of what is usually a 6-month course of teachings) an exaggerated focus.

I think the Tibetan system enables egomaniacs like Ole. But I also think it's clear that when Ole discovered the tantric teachings through the 16th Karmapa and Kalu Rinpoche, he realized he'd found something that he could turn into a very profitable vehicle for his own aggrandizement and sexual gratification.

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yasmin
To put this in historical context though, in Anglo Saxon society at the same time, children as young as 7 could give consent to betrothal, though generally the marriage could be voided, until the girl reached the age of 12,or the boy the age of 14. At 9 years old,a girl could recieve her dead husbands dower.

IMO,it is how these religions and societies behave today though, and whether they recognise the cruelty of past belief systems, that matters.

Undoubtedly, in Medieval Europe there were horrific abuses of women and children in daily life. Women and children didn't have rights. But the West reformed, whereas Tibetan society didn't. Now that it has joined the modern world, though, reform at some point, hopefully, will become inevitable. One of the principal issues in Diamond Way, as in TB as a whole, is accountability. No one is holding Ole accountable. Perhaps ultimately it's the students and the legal system that will have to take on that task.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2013 03:08AM by Misstyk.

karam-mudra:

That is the last post of yours that will be approved, which is largely off topic.

This is not a theology corner to discuss beliefs.

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Misstyk
I think TB has all the elements in place for someone to use it as a cult if they want. Some teachers do, some don't. Some teachers promote guru devotion even in the preliminary stages of instruction, and foster "group-think"--Ole being an extreme example, while some teachers are humble and insist that their students not regard them as anything special. And I also think that Ole picks aspects of the teachings that appeal to him, and blows them out of proportion. Like the anti-Muslim part of the Kalachakra, and the idea that Africa and other parts of the world have a lower standard of living because of everyone's bad karma there. (The seeds for this idea are in the Lamrim, but Ole harps on it and gives that one piece (out of what is usually a 6-month course of teachings) an exaggerated focus.

I think the Tibetan system enables egomaniacs like Ole. But I also think it's clear that when Ole discovered the tantric teachings through the 16th Karmapa and Kalu Rinpoche, he realized he'd found something that he could turn into a very profitable vehicle for his own aggrandizement and sexual gratification.

I totally agree. Another factor is this is also the situation in the West with the whole "magic realism" thing, where westerners have some exaggerated idea of shangri la and exotic superhuman powers. That is why I have to draw the line at the idea that Nydahl and Karmapa are some kind of psychic vampires feeding off sexually charged neurotic female energy.

For those who want to discuss the systemic problems some see as integral with vajrayana and tantra there are two threads where this can be discussed without risk of distracting from the specifics of Diamond Way and Ole N.

I should have remembered this earlier. My apologies for sidetracking the discussioin away from Ole N and Diamond Way.

The other discussion venues:

1) Hindu and Buddhist tantra--problems

[forum.culteducation.com]

2) Alternative views about the Dalai Lama.

[forum.culteducation.com]

3) Re: So-Called Ancient Hindu spirituality concealing American LGAT 'tech'

(This thread focuses on the Siddha Yoga (Muktananda/Kashmiri Shaivism) and SYDA Yoga (run by Muktananda's successor Gurumayi) -- discussions of how elements from Werner Erhard's EST/Landmark large group awareness trainings were incorporated by Muktananda into his Siddha Yoga 'intensives')

[forum.culteducation.com]

4)"Geshe" Michael Roach and Linda MacNally - Diamond Mountain

[forum.culteducation.com]

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karam-mudra
"Even then karam-mudra seems rather unclear about what actually happened."

Suanam, that it a mere assumption.

I have looked at your blogs and on here and it just seems unclear, for example, you say that when you showed no interest Nydahl made some secret hand gesture of control which then lead to you being in a trance like state.

You seem to have little interest in what you call superstitious beliefs, nor in even starting the ngondro, nor in the 6 yogas of Naropa, so how do you know the meaning of some obscure hand gesture which I have no knowledge of after many more years of contact with TB, and which when I have tried to research this, I found that no one else seems to know anything about either?

The most obvious thing would be to think that you were drugged, but you tell us it was because of some ultra-secret hand gesture that only you and Nydahl seem to know about.

I still can't work out from reading everything you wrote whether the Karmapa was actually there or whether you merely hallucinated him. This is why I say it seems unclear. If Nydahl really has some superpower to control other's minds with just a hand gesture then it would seem helpful to know something about this, but you have written it as if it is something so obvious and straightforward that no one reading it would have any doubt that it is the truth about what really happened. It just doesn't add up.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2013 02:46PM by suenam.

Hi Sueman,

I just said, you may win!

karam-mudra, there will always be people who won't accept what you are saying and will talk circles around you. i would say a thread of 170 actually does show that there are serious problems with Nydahl's group. This has to be one of the longest threads on RR. But you are wise to say, you may win. Hypnosis is used by many gurus to control their devotees. You actually can give hypnotic suggestions to a person and then put them back into a trance by hand gestures. It really doesn't take that much. I know of a guru how put another man's hand on the all and just told him that he couldn't move it, and he couldn't. But I am tried of debating as well.

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grainne uaile
karam-mudra, there will always be people who won't accept what you are saying and will talk circles around you. i would say a thread of 170 actually does show that there are serious problems with Nydahl's group. This has to be one of the longest threads on RR. But you are wise to say, you may win. Hypnosis is used by many gurus to control their devotees. You actually can give hypnotic suggestions to a person and then put them back into a trance by hand gestures. It really doesn't take that much. I know of a guru how put another man's hand on the all and just told him that he couldn't move it, and he couldn't. But I am tried of debating as well.

Being a trained hypnotherapist I can say with some confidence that even in the deepest trance state, you cannot force someone to do something totally against their will.


I also took another long look at Sannella's work, found here, [www.kundaliniawakeningsystems1.com]

those in whom the kundalini elements predominate are usually much more objective about themselves, and have an interest in sharing what is going on with them, Those on the psychotic side tend to be very oblique, secretive and totally preoccupied with ruminations about some vague but significant subjective aspect of their experience which they can never quite communicate to others. p. 57

Page 58...Our results support the view that this force is positive and creative... The pain, in other words, resulted not from the process itself but from her resistance to it. We suspect this is true of all the negative effects of the phsyio-kundalini process.

Page 59...Symptoms, when caused by this process, will disappear spontaneously in time... Disturbances seen are therefore not pathological, but rather therapeutic…. Tension and imbalance thus result, not from the process itself, but from conscious or subconscious interference with it… much of their anxiety may be due to misunderstanding and ignorance of the physio-kundalini process.

So the claim that there is some inherent malice at work here is not supported. Finally, something which may be more specifically relevant to Nydahl himself, on page 48,

But, when it is not in balance, due to deep psychological resistances, to fear and confusion, or to social and other environmental pressures, then negative aspects of the experience may be emphasized. Hysteria or a state akin to schizophrenia may result. Also the person may become identified with the physio-kundalini process itself in a negative, egotistical way, believing he or she has been divinely chosen for some great mission, perhaps as a saviour.