Guru-Doubter ~ thanks for your recollections from all those years ago. I do remember hearing a very brief rumor about some such thing as bombings, but at that time I did not give it much thought. One certainly has to ask the question whether Curly Dave was acting on his own behalf or with guru's permission or advice or whatever... but the fact that he was in the "inner circle" certainly is interesting.

Rama das: I'm glad to hear that you have not been sued, bro ... but watch out for them darned devilish Yamadutas at the time of death ... remember that the all-merciful, all-loving bluish fellow does not tolerate any criticism of his very very very very best friend, heheheheheheh :)

My parents used to tell us about this (The bomb malfunction), They said they were in the house, chanting with everyone when they heard a loud explosion. Everyone ran out and found that the two guys building the bomb had blown themselves up.
I remember that they said the people who built the bomb wanted to bomb a slaughter house, and that it was built in a fire extinguisher.

So, yeah, at least to validate your story somewhat... your post really jogged my memory.
You may have known my parents, from Whangamata. I was their first kid, born in 1979.

The story was always told in the sense that the guys who did it were very radical, and it was tragic. I never encountered the sentiment that anybody should be out there trying to make bombs, kill people and blow up slaughter houses.

I assume that prior to the mishap, that sentiment did exist, at least very discretely.

Thanks for the post, seems you have some valuable knowledge. This is THE location for anything you want to share.

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just-googling
Rama das: I'm glad to hear that you have not been sued, bro ... but watch out for them darned devilish Yamadutas at the time of death ... remember that the all-merciful, all-loving bluish fellow does not tolerate any criticism of his very very very very best friend, heheheheheheh :)

Are you talking AVATAR? I thought those dudes seemed cooler than that...
I do LOVE that movie, just brilliant! (must be seen in 3D). I hope it does not trigger any more Blue Man worship. Since I got free of the cult, I also had a problem with enjoying the antics of Tobias Fünke from "Arrested Development" a little TOO much, arguably to cult-like proportions.





Who do I worship NOW?

I thought I'd share this link on NLP. Magicians like Criss Angel, "Nelpers" use a lot of the same verbal cues as cult leaders. I'm sure there are NLP experts here on the Ross forum who could comment further. My thought is that it is easy to manipulate people into thinking other than what they know to be true. Imagine being in the Butler or any other cult for years after seeing this. No wonder it is so hard to leave cults, especially when you have been convinced that you would be committing spiritual suicide.

Derren Brown NLP

Just wondering if Chris Butler "took on the karma" of those lads that blew themselves up (as he often claimed to do this with his followers)???? He would rant on about that is why he got so ill all the time and needed continual treatments and massages.
Also, on whom did he blame for his illness upon his arrival in New Zealand that summer?

Seems India has their own Rick Ross / Amazing Randi!
Great article on exposing fake gurus:
Exposing Fake Gurus

Although Butler put down these same gurus and downplayed the flaunting of "mystic powers", he still plays an unverifiable shell game with his followers. He doesn't need to show off any powers or even appear in person. He has mastered creating a smoke screen of being a "pure devotee" and cons people to fear for their very spiritual lives if they go against him. Just so you know, everyone reading and writing on this forum is as doomed as the skeptic in this story.

Related to the bombing post on this forum is reference to a guru who wanted to get into politics and introduce the death penalty for slaughtering cows. Sound familiar?

"When a famous tantric guru boasted on television that he could kill another man using only his mystical powers, most viewers either gasped in awe or merely nodded unquestioningly. Sanal Edamaruku’s response was different. “Go on then — kill me,” he said.

Mr Edamaruku had been invited to the same talk show as head of the Indian Rationalists’ Association — the country’s self-appointed sceptic-in-chief. At first the holy man, Pandit Surender Sharma, was reluctant, but eventually he agreed to perform a series of rituals designed to kill Mr Edamaruku live on television. Millions tuned in as the channel cancelled scheduled programming to continue broadcasting the showdown, which can still be viewed on YouTube.

First, the master chanted mantras, then he sprinkled water on his intended victim. He brandished a knife, ruffled the sceptic’s hair and pressed his temples. But after several hours of similar antics, Mr Edamaruku was still very much alive — smiling for the cameras and taunting the furious holy man.

“He was over, finished, completely destroyed!” Mr Edamaruku chuckles triumphantly as he concludes the tale in the Rationalist Centre, his second-floor office in the town of Noida, just outside Delhi.
Related Links

* Hunt for holy man accused of kidnapping woman

* Holy leader ‘used temple to run prostitution ring’

Rationalising India has never been easy. Given the country’s vast population, its pervasive poverty and its dizzying array of ethnic groups, languages and religions, many deem it impossible.

Nevertheless, Mr Edamaruku has dedicated his life to exposing the charlatans — from levitating village fakirs to televangelist yoga masters — who he says are obstructing an Indian Enlightenment. He has had a busy month, with one guru arrested over prostitution, another caught in a sex-tape scandal, a third kidnapping a female follower and a fourth allegedly causing a stampede that killed 63 people.

This week India’s most popular yoga master, Baba Ramdev, announced plans to launch a political party, promising to cleanse India of corruption and introduce the death penalty for slaughtering cows. Then, on Wednesday, police arrested a couple in Maharashtra state on suspicion of killing five boys on the advice of a tantric master who said their sacrifice would help the childless couple to conceive.

“The immediate goal I have is to stop these fraudulent babas and gurus,” says Mr Edamaruku, 55, a part-time journalist and publisher from the southern state of Kerala. “I want people to make their own decisions. They should not be guided by ignorance, but by knowledge.

“I’d like to see a post-religious society — that would be an ideal dream, but I don’t know how long it would take.”

His organisation traces its origins to the 1930s when the “Thinker’s Library” series of books, published by Britain’s Rationalist Press Association, were first imported to India. They included works by Aldous Huxley, Charles Darwin and H.G. Wells; among the early subscribers was Jawaharlal Nehru, India’s first Prime Minister.

The Indian Rationalist Association was founded officially in Madras in 1949 with the encouragement of the British philosopher Bertrand Russell, who sent a long letter of congratulations. For the next three decades it had no more than 300 members and focused on publishing pamphlets and debating within the country’s intellectual elite.

But since Mr Edamaruku took over in 1985, it has grown into a grass-roots organisation of more than 100,000 members — mainly young professionals, teachers and students — covering most of India. Members now spend much of their time investigating and reverse-engineering “miracles” performed by self-styled holy men who often claim millions of followers and amass huge wealth from donations.

One common trick they expose is levitation, usually done using an accomplice who lies on the ground under a blanket and then raises his upper body while holding out two hockey sticks under the blanket to make it look like his feet are also rising. “It’s quite easy really,” said Mr Edamaruku, who teaches members to perform the tricks in villages and then explains how they are done, or demonstrates them at press conferences.

Other simple tricks include walking on hot coals (the skin does not burn if you walk fast enough) and lying on a bed of nails (your weight is spread evenly across the bed). The “weeping statue” trick is usually done by melting a thin layer of wax covering a small deposit of water.

Some tricks require closer scrutiny. One guru in the state of Andhra Pradesh used to boil a pot of tea using a small fire on his head. The secret was to place a non-conductive pad made of compacted wheat flour between his head and the fire. “I was so excited when I exposed him. I should have been more reasonable but sometimes you get so angry,” he said. “I cried: ‘Look, even I can do this and I’m not a baba — I’m a rationalist!’.”

Another swami — who conducted funeral rites for Indira Gandhi, the Prime Minister who was assassinated in 1984 — used to appear to create fire by pouring ghee, clarified butter, on to ash and then staring at the mixture until it burst into flames. The “ghee” was glycerine and the “ash” was potassium permanganate, two chemicals that spontaneously combust within about two minutes of being mixed together.

Exposing such tricks can be risky. A guru called Balti (Bucket) Baba once smashed a burning hot clay pot in Mr Edamaruku’s face after he revealed that the holy man was using a heat resistant pad to pick it up.

The chief rationalist was almost arrested by the government of Kerala for revealing that it was behind an annual apparition of flames in the night sky — in fact, several state officials lighting bonfires on a nearby hill — which attracted millions of pilgrims. Despite his efforts, he admits that people still go to the festival and continue to revere self-styled holy men.

One reason is that Indian politicians nurture and shelter gurus to give them spiritual credibility, use their followers as vote banks, or to mask sexual or criminal activity. That explains why India’s Parliament has never tightened the 1954 Drugs and Magic Remedies Act, under which the maximum punishment is two months in prison and a 2,000 rupee (£29) fine.

Another reason is that educated, middle-class Indians are feeling increasingly alienated from mainstream religion but still in need of spiritual sustenance. “When traditional religion collapses people still need spirituality,” he says. “So they usually go one of two directions: towards extremism and fundamentalism or to these kinds of people.”

Since richer, urban Indians have little time for long pilgrimages or pujas (prayer ceremonies), they are often attracted by holy men who offer instant gratification — for a fee. The development of the Indian media over the past decade has also allowed some holy men to reach ever larger audiences via television and the internet. “Small ones have gone out of business while the big ones have become like corporations,” says Mr Edamaruku.

But the media revolution has also helped Mr Edamaruku, who made 225 appearances on television last year, and gets up to 70 inquiries about membership daily. Thanks to his confrontation in 2008 with the tantric master, the rationalist is now a national celebrity, too.

When the guru’s initial efforts failed, he accused Mr Edamaruku of praying to gods to protect him. “No, I’m an atheist,” came the response. The holy man then said he needed to conduct a ritual that could only be done at night, outdoors, and after he had slept with a woman, drunk alcohol and rubbed himself in ash.

The men agreed to go to an outdoor studio that night — all to no avail. At midnight, the anchor declared the contest over. Reason had prevailed. "

I think this cult will collapse in on itself and die. People in North America just are not the same as they were in the 70's. The disaffected youth of the 70's that fueled the rise of the hare krishna movement, are no longer, and the disaffected youth of today, punks, hipsters, gang-bangers, et al, are just not interested. No matter how you dress it up as yoga, or meditation, or relaxation, or have yoga dances, vegetarian feasts, etc..once the actual truth of activities of the centers becomes apparent, they just don't stick around. The vulnerable kids who find shelter and acceptance at a center, soon find it is just more emotional abuse and exploitation, no better than the situations they may have left, and they quickly find the door. The bait-and-switch tactics are backfiring, even as the devotees fly lower and lower under the radar. ("don't say krishna, don't mention god, call it yoga!")

The higher level devotees who are running these centers don't look too intelligent by today's standards. They are still following the lead of their spiritual master and spouting all sorts of nonsense as fact. If a new person questions the nonsense, they are quickly put down. Out the door. If they listen to a DVD of their spiritual master, they are exposed to more emotional abuse, stupidity and guilt tactics. He looks pretty stupid having his hissy fits and calling people assholes. I don't think they are missing the fact that they are supposed to give all to the spiritual master while everyone above them is living pretty well.

I think those higher-level devotees are living the good life off the backs of the new people, but I am sure they are wondering too, what the he*l they did with their lives.

I guess my point is that people are just more skeptical, more informed, and more worldly, and less likely to put up with abuse and exploitation as a religion. (and being told to wash their vegetables in chlorine bleach). yech.

I realize that the above does not address why people get sucked into cults, but those discussions are on-going.

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terrenaut
I think this cult will collapse in on itself and die. People in North America just are not the same as they were in the 70's. The disaffected youth of the 70's that fueled the rise of the hare krishna movement, are no longer, and the disaffected youth of today, punks, hipsters, gang-bangers, et al, are just not interested. No matter how you dress it up as yoga, or meditation, or relaxation, or have yoga dances, vegetarian feasts, etc..once the actual truth of activities of the centers becomes apparent, they just don't stick around. The vulnerable kids who find shelter and acceptance at a center, soon find it is just more emotional abuse and exploitation, no better than the situations they may have left, and they quickly find the door. The bait-and-switch tactics are backfiring, even as the devotees fly lower and lower under the radar. ("don't say krishna, don't mention god, call it yoga!")

I certainly hope you are correct. But what about outside of North America? As the current leaders age out, won't the next generation of "true believers" find new ways to carry on the cult in their own fashion or culture? I don't have as much faith in human intelligence as you do. There are still a great many people who still think the pope is infallible too. That is a religion that has been around a LONG time! The previous article I posted spoke about a generation of Indians similar to Euro/Americans in the 60's unhappy with traditional religion and turning to instant enlightenment gurus. I think this is just a human tendency that always needs to be overcome by training the will and developing critical thinking skills.

I don't know where you live, but in the affluent areas of America, people in their 30's - 40's, yoga, health foods, and meditation are hugely popular. Chris knows his market. These are the people who keep Whole Foods in business. They have money. He has no interest in the poor 20 somethings any more unless they volunteer their labors that keep his followers businesses alive.

Butler trades his "Brand Name" like a product endorsement (JAGAD GURU, pure devotee, g0d's representative, umbrella of spiritual protection) in exchange for a cut of the profits. It's a great scam that not only feeds his ego, but also his wallet. The older followers get to use Butler's image and name to recruit "volunteers" for slave wages which helps run their businesses. All the followers have to do is to pay the mafia boss, ...erm..., their spiritual master, a percentage of the profits. It's a WIN-WIN situation for both follower and Butler. This may be the real reason so many older devotees stay on for years after knowing what a fraud he is. It's pure business. If they wake up and realize this after they have raised kids and grandkids in the cult it's too late. They are fully invested. The children of the followers either join the family business or get seed money to start their own businesses.


You see, Butler has already established his guru credentials. He doesn't need to work on this any more. It's not about spirituality. He used the Hare Krishna franchise/ brand name to launch himself and set himself up as infallible. Now he can relax into old age. Let's see who becomes the next brand name =) after Butler's "Disappearance Day." (a term used when a spiritual master "leaves the planet" - in other words, "leaves this mortal coil", "maki-die-dead") Taking bets here on Rick Ross! VD? Young Gun Siddha? Would they break with tradition and pick a female acharya?

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terrenaut
The higher level devotees who are running these centers don't look too intelligent by today's standards. They are still following the lead of their spiritual master and spouting all sorts of nonsense as fact. If a new person questions the nonsense, they are quickly put down. Out the door. If they listen to a DVD of their spiritual master, they are exposed to more emotional abuse, stupidity and guilt tactics. He looks pretty stupid having his hissy fits and calling people assholes. I don't think they are missing the fact that they are supposed to give all to the spiritual master while everyone above them is living pretty well.

It has been that way from the beginning. For every few hundred people coming to a center or feast, maybe one stayed on to learn. There were always people coming and going. Some stayed a week, a month, two years, 20 years or more. From what I can ascertain is that Chris learned early on that he needed to run his life and businesses in a way that did not depend on the flux/disaffection of loyal followers. I would also not underestimate the baseline level or amount of loyal followers he still has that support him financially and have seeded the businesses that have made him independently wealthy. Given the effort to win the google wars and snuff out all criticism of his cult on the WWW, shows that he still has a very large base line. People in the 70's or 80's were not less intelligent, less worldly, less skeptical. Nor were they more inclined to join a cult than today. That is just a silly notion that ignores history.

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terrenaut
I think those higher-level devotees are living the good life off the backs of the new people, but I am sure they are wondering too, what the he*l they did with their lives.

I wonder how they must rationalize their involvement in the cult. Older followers must be aware of much of the fraud or??? If they are living off the backs of new people, they probably don't much care now or ever --- or they are so trapped in the mirror of their narcissistic leader that they really believe they are doing g0d's work.

New people "offering" free labor services need to sue under labor laws, like the group of ex-Scientologists are now doing. That will be an interesting case to follow.

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terrenaut
I guess my point is that people are just more skeptical, more informed, and more worldly, and less likely to put up with abuse and exploitation as a religion. (and being told to wash their vegetables in chlorine bleach)

I have to disagree. Every generation has their good points and their weak points. The generation that grew up on "Oprah", "Dr Phil", "The Simpsons", the internet, video games, and reality T.V. is no less susceptible to cults than the generation that grew up on "Leave it to Beaver", "Twilight Zone", and "Star Wars" who also fought for civil rights, women's rights, gay rights and ended the war in Vietnam. What is different is the easy access to information. What is different is that there are less filters and boundaries. Today, while drowning in information we are starving for knowledge. The ability to discriminate between truth and falsehood is no less a challenge today than in earlier generations. The difference is that there is just a whole lot more bits to process.


BTW many farms wash produce (such as green peppers) in a water/ bleach bath before going off to the market. It kills bacteria. If the produce is well rinsed or peeled, it should pose no health risk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2010 01:43AM by Vera City.

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