Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: hoax108 ()
Date: August 13, 2009 09:01AM

No, she wasn't married to Tusta.

Yes, she is married to B.T. das but I don't know his "anglo" name.

I met her once - she was a beautiful and charming woman with gorgeous children.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: atheist ()
Date: September 01, 2009 07:59AM

We have pretty good evidence now that the group "Hawaii's Future Today," a group formed in the 1990s to fight against gay marriage in Hawaii, was a front for the Mormon Church. []

It makes me suspicious of Mike Gabbard (Krishna Katha das) group the "Alliance for Traditional Marriage and Values."

I think we almost have to assume that this is actually a front for Jagad Guru (Chris Butler) and the Science of Identity Foundation.

Any suggestions for finding out if this is so?

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: terrenaut ()
Date: September 06, 2009 12:57PM

I think that information is contained in the previous pages of this discussion. It is a long read, but an interesting one.

I also think it is fair to say that "everything" Mike Gabbard does is a front for his guru, Chris Butler.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: atheist ()
Date: September 07, 2009 09:51AM

Mike Gabbard, Krishna Katha das, is listing this "Shining World Leadership Award" on his website at []

Shining World Leadership Award - Supreme Master Ching Hai International Association (2008)

It is not the first time he has received an award from another cult. Back in 2001 he accepted an award for the Alliance for Traditional Marriage and Values from the Unification church. []

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: atheist ()
Date: September 23, 2009 04:43AM

Chris Butler's group in New Zealand used to be the "New Zealand School of Meditation."

This group is still listed in directories for "schools of meditation" in New Zealand. The website listed in such directories, [] doesn't seem to be functional.

Has this organization gone out of business? Has it changed its name?

Does Chris Butler even still have a group in New Zealand that is promulgating his "Science of Identity" beliefs?

If there is a group, does anyone know its name?

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: December 12, 2009 11:39PM

Hi everyone I have been following this thread with interest for a while now as my daughter has been increasingly getting involved with this group over the last year or so.

My reason for posting now is out of concern for Cara the person who was posting here as cultreporter.
I went to the site. It seems like Cara is in a lot of trouble with the police and recently lost a defamation lawsuit for things she said on her website. She was ordered to pay $70000 as well as hit with a court order stopping her from posting.

It seems these people will not hesitate to aggressively go after anyone who speaks out about them, it is outrageous.

I also have concerns they may go after other people like Rama because he has openly identified himself here. Rama you will have to be very careful that you don’t get caught up in this kind of thing as well.

What is so good about this forum a person can express their concerns, experiences and points of view but stay safe by staying anonymous.

Despite the disagreements some people here may have had with Cara I think it is important to offer her support. She seems to be the backbone of and in the frontline of this important battle.

I would like to propose we show that support by perhaps offering her some financial assistance, to help pay her damages or lawyers’ fees etc. what do you guys think? How could we do that? Is it something Rick Ross could be involved with? Please PM me if anyone has any ideas.

Hey, Everyone, hope all is well for you all.
Was just reading through for the first time in ages and saw this.

Just for your information, I have never once received any type of backlash of the legal variety over any of my speaking out.

Perhaps because it was largely through this website, not to mention it all being legitimate testimony. Angry, no doubt, and this sight was witness to some of my darkest moments, but I have never regretted doing what I did here.

It was a crucial step in my life that has brought me great clarity and a much deeper level of freedom.

I feel as though I don't want to waste my energy on fighting these people, life is far more wide open than that.
I appreciate everyone who does or has, I guess I just wanted to share my experiences from the past, while gladly not accumulating too many more, as the whole point has been to get free of it.

That is just my own personal orientation and I honored my instinct to stand up and speak out, I encourage anyone else to do the same.

I applaud all of you who have contributed, Cara for sure, a real warrior. I hope she is okay. It gets rough dancing with the devil, she has a lot of courage.

I lost my family over this, but they chose to cut me off, I just figured they would have a place in their lives for their son and brother despite or god forbid BECAUSE of his true feelings and nature... I guess I was naive to ascribe such a basic level of humanity to them.
Man, what a crying shame.

My door to all my friends and family remains wide open, though I would probably "die of astonishment*" if any of them came close to the damn thing short of me groveling for forgiveness after somehow erasing any trace of my dissatisfaction with the cult from existence.

*(Above phrase courtesy of the magnificent Terence McKenna)

No matter how this may seem, I LOVE YOU MUM. I LOVE YOU LAKS, even though I was screaming at you over the phone a year ago (cold bastard!), you know I can effortlessly leave all our differences aside, I think I actually demonstrated this thoroughly. You know when the time is right for you, I am your brother and will be waiting happily if you want anything.
I think that time is not as far as we may think and I know that the real things that outlive this life are the deep love and connection we share. This drama we play out here is as transitory as the flesh and just an intense catalyst for our own growth.

I am deeply connected to you both and deeply connected to all my old friends.
Especially you, Prahlad, I wish you all the best and we have shared some f**king amazing times.
I'll meet you all on the other side.

Perhaps just beyond the rapidly approaching crescendo of the fractal spiral.

"whatever the hell that means... what the f**k's this guy on about? just goes to show how crazy you get when you go out into the material world without a bonafide spiritual master."

"yeah, I know, how can you have a teacher who was not taught by someone out of disciplic succession? You gotta be linked up to lord chaitanya somewhere along the line or you're just lost, mate."

"Yeah, all these fake gurus are bloody dangerous, mate!"

"Lucky we found Srila Prapbhupada, mate, otherwise we'd be bloody stuck on the wheel of birth and death for like millions of bloody lifetimes, mate."

"Yeah, Hare bol, mate"

"Yeah, Yeah, Hare Bol, mate."

Right on, everyone, thanks for entertaining my impromptu performance.
all the best,

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 13, 2009 10:17AM

Items for further research Brotherhood of Eternal Love


Siddha with his pyschic sleep and drugs was how he was the only disciple with a following by the time he joined ISKCON. He had two followers running the Laguna temple which just happened to be located next door to Leary's Brotherhood of Eternal Love drug smuggling ring which also ran out of Maui where Ramesvara the Iskcon drug guru was found out. Telling drugged out surfers to leave their intellect behind and hear from him submissively - doesn't work as well without the Beatles and LSD although the teaching is much the same.

If anyone is interested in the Brotherhood of Eternal Love, there is a considerable literature, both online and offline

Chapter Seven 'Drug Busts and Gangster's from Nori Muster's memoir, Betrayal of the Spirit. ISKON in Laguna Beach, California and the heavy scene in 1977.

The Brotherhood of Eternal Love From Flower Power to Hippie Mafia:
The Story of the LSD Counterculture Stewart Tendler and David May
(An updated version of this book has been re-issued by Cyan Press in 2007)

The Lords of Acid (A menu of additional articles on right hand side bar)


A long list of citations here


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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: frances88 ()
Date: December 30, 2009 01:24AM

I would also like to mention the drinking of foot bath water by devotees that are higher up in ranks. I have only heard this through the grapevine but I would not put it past Chris Butler to convince others that this is appropriate behaviour. Apparently it is considered a huge honour to be given the privilege of washing the feet of the Guru, which supposedly was historically done to Krishna? And doing this act instills the feeling of "service" to the master.

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Date: December 31, 2009 04:41AM

I would also like to mention the drinking of foot bath water by devotees that are higher up in ranks. I have only heard this through the grapevine but I would not put it past Chris Butler to convince others that this is appropriate behaviour. Apparently it is considered a huge honour to be given the privilege of washing the feet of the Guru, which supposedly was historically done to Krishna? And doing this act instills the feeling of "service" to the master.

So your telling me that if you were fortunate enough to be washing Srila Prahpbupada's feet, you wouldn't sneak a little sip? You could just duck around the corner and lick your fingers... No? jeez, man, what's wrong with you?

"Oh, your bloody crazy, mate... Your bloody lost in the material world, mate. Here, mate, have some Maha toenails, mate, this'll cleanse Maya's illusory energies from ya heart, mate."

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: Guru Doubter ()
Date: January 04, 2010 08:20PM

Here is my first entry on this forum, I have chosen to write about the Auckland bombings in the 1970’s (have I got your attention?). I’ll bet that there are a quite a few hearts aflutter at reading this entrée! It’s been a secret for a long time. I haven’t read all the posts on this forum but I did read this incident being referred to briefly in one post. Forgive me if I am going over old ground.
I was in Auckland in the summer of 1975 – 76. Siddha (as we all called him then) had come to New Zealand for a series of lectures. Nearly every night after he arrived we would turn up to a ‘gathering’ (mellow of course) and chant, only to then hear that Siddha was not well enough to attend, and someone else would give the talk, Tusta or others, I think Hari Rama (Harvey Mann) gave the first lecture in a nice white dhoti. It rained a lot that year and people were intently giving Siddha acupuncture, moxa and other natural treatments for what I heard was a liver ailment. It was nearly a month before we heard his first lecture and kirtan at Nick’s house on the north shore.
In the intervening time I got to know ‘the crew’ pretty well. Of most relevance to this topic were Curly Dave and Big Red. We were told that they were ksatriyas, holy warriors if you like, from the hindu four caste system (or should I say varnashrama dharma). They were heavily into martial arts, of which I was told in a hushed voice that Siddha strongly approved. Red was a big guy who I saw carrying nunchakus. I was told he was there to protect devotees and to stick up for the right cause. Hippie hangovers made me a little cautious about this, but who was I to judge? Curly Dave had wild curly hair and gave off a very different vibe to the affable Big Red. I decided to keep my distance. They seemed to be quite close to Tusta and were more or less in the inner circle, but not to the extent of Nick and Simon, who were really ‘in’, at least for that summer.
As I was driving around Auckland with a friend of mine, who was more ‘inside’ than this humble fringe-dweller, we saw some graffiti art and he said doesn’t that face remind of you of Curly Dave? Then he said he would tell me a secret, which I have kept for 34 years. He said that Curly Dave had done a couple of bombings of an abattoir and an abortion clinic in New Zealand. This gelled a little as Siddha gave some lectures that summer that were very anti-abortion and anti-animal slaughter/meat-eating. Had I heard about the bombs? No. The impression was certainly given that a number of the inner circle knew about them and that Curly Dave and Big Red were still well looked upon. I tried to rationalize this thunderbolt by telling myself that ksatriyas had to fight the holy fight. I stayed on.
The dreary summer dragged on and I could tell lots of stories, Siddha got well and lectured quite a bit, finally I decided to leave Auckland and go home. Tusta told me that to leave was to commit spiritual suicide. I left and still consider it one of the better and braver decisions I have made in my life. Many of my friends stayed on, a couple to this day. Tusta and I went on to have further dealings in future years, but that too is another story.
A year or two later I opened a newspaper to read of a report of a bomb exploding in the Grey Lynne house that was extensively used by Siddha’s followers in Auckland. I remember many kirtans and feasts there and also that the Srimad Bhagavatams and Caitanya Caritamritas were stored in the dwelling out the back, which is where it turned out that the bomb exploded. The report said that there had been some deaths. A panicked phone call established that none of my friends were killed. The story goes that Curly Dave was making a bomb in a fire extinguisher, which he was going to place in an abattoir. He was with a young peripheral devotee who was an electrician. I remember him as a quiet and nice guy who had just joined the group when I was there. Curly Dave must have thought he could use his skills. Obviously the wiring wasn’t all that good! He and Curly Dave were supposed to be leaning over the bomb when it went off. Rumor has it that Curly Dave’s head was found past the used car sales yard over the back fence and that his mouth was wide open as if saying ‘faaaaarck’. I sometimes wonder if the pages of the Bhagavatams and Caitanya Caritamritas fluttered down around his remains, like some ironic movie scene.
Well that is about as much as I know. I’m sure that there must be a lot more information out there about whether Siddha knew of all this, or Tusta, or if Curly Dave was requested to do it. I have reflected over the years on how that whole cult mentality helped people step over lines of basic morality that should never be crossed. Even those of us who stayed quiet need to look deeply on why we did that. The influence of that group or cult mentality is the most fascinating aspect of that bomb. Many people, through their knowledge of what was happening or what did happen, came perilously close to involvement in a terrorist act. Lots of people could have stopped that explosion from happening with a simple phone call to the police. What stopped us? Fear of offending Siddha? Committing the terrible mad elephant offense of guru aparadh? Most of those people with knowledge were, or started out to be, kind and well intentioned spiritual seekers. But when your guru is the one who can introduce you to Krishna and secure your salvation, every moral goes out the door in a flash.
As I think back on that blatant personality cult surrounding Siddha I am reminded of the evening arati performed by the ‘boys’ at the farm in Murwillimbah, northern NSW in Australia, as they faithfully chanted:
‘Siddha, Siddha, Siddha, Siddha, Siddha Haribol
Siddha Nityananda, Siddha Nityananda’
I was justifiably terrified.

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